Explosive arrows (question)

[Samka]

Hi all

I was wondering if someone could either explain or direct me to an explanation of how the 'fires explosive arrows' attribute works.

Basically, I'm creating a shock paladin and I want to know if the lightning damage will be output on the arrow explosion. I have read that fire damage is added to the explosion (and that enchant works with it), but is all elemental damage added? And even so, does this apply to the paladin aura-added damage?

I'm hoping someone knows the answer to this, since it's rather difficult for me to test, as the aura itself does significant area damage and the creatures I hit directly are taking extra physical damage.

thanks for any answers people can provide - I'm creating essentially a 'dexadin' who will alternate between shock explosive arrows, and fanaticism with a high damage bow.

[adeyke]

Only fire damage (all of it, including holy fire and enchant) is carried on the splash. Physical damage and other elemental damage exist only on the arrow itself.

[Samka]

Thanks for the swift response. Well, that pretty much sux - how am I going to match a fireball sorc now?

[ShadowHM]

how am I going to match a fireball sorc now?

With a fireball sorc?

Rangers (Paladins who use bows) are not the most powerful characters in the game. They are a lot of fun and can be remarkably effective in their own right, but they will never have the sheer killing power of many other builds. If that was why you were building him, you won't be happy.

[LiquidDamage]

Thanks for the swift response. Well, that pretty much sux - how am I going to match a fireball sorc now?

In case you didn't notice, adeyke said all fire damage is transferred, and mentioned that this includes Holy Fire.

Use Holy Fire instead of Holy Shock.

Holy Fire has two synergies: Resist Fire and Salvation. Max these three and you will also have your points for Fanaticism. If these are the only skills you take, then you have spent 83 points, and will therefore be maxed at 74 (assuming you do the den in hell by then).

With a maxed Holy Fire, Resist Fire, and Salvation, you will deal 643-713 fire damage, with no +skills. With a +3 offensive aura amulet or circlet, you will deal 835-904 (the +skills make a significant difference), and the pulse damage will help fight the monster regen.

If you can get BOTH a +3 amulet and circlet, then you will deal 1096-1165 fire damage.

This isn't crazy-insane like fireball, but it is certainly different and would be effective through Nightmare. In Hell, you would likely help more by supplying fanaticism to your teammates and their mercs and/or minions.

It's too bad, but lots of variants are totally hamstrung by the ridiculous monster regeneration in hell difficulty, not to mention immunes. I wish they would just remove the regen, all it does is screw over slow killing builds (most variants), or force them to find/use PMH.

[Crystalion]

It's too bad, but lots of variants are totally hamstrung by the ridiculous monster regeneration in hell difficulty, not to mention immunes.  I wish they would just remove the regen, all it does is screw over slow killing builds (most variants), or force them to find/use PMH.

Well, the game is often more enjoyable when it is harder (e.g. see MongoJerry stories). Yes a slow killing build player may get frustrated if they are having trouble and think about how easy it is for some cheesy build to do what they are stuggling with. But some things are good *because* they are difficult.

A "slow" build either has to plan on spending a lot more time playing or has to plan on "seeing the light at the end of the tunnel" a bit sooner, in clvl terms, than faster builds.

But a good player can fairly easily complete D2 hell in party in their 60s, with most builds, if the party members are halfway competent. (I'm speaking for softcore, of course, hardcore player's understandably would probably prefer to wait a bit before pushing their luck).

Many of these "fast" builds that cookie-cutter players favor need to be fast simply because the players aren't very good, so they need the clvl vs. mlvl, the stat points and the skill points and the goodies dropped/traded for. Most of these players apparently feel they've done well only when something seems pathetically easy to do. Many of the players I've seen in public games just bail when things get tough (after dying a few times).

So by all means try an oddball Paly build, instead of an "uber" blessed hammer build... you'll probably have a bigger challenge, to be sure, but I bet you'll have more fun. :)

edit: I know that BH involves skill... imo BH is one of many skills that is a bit overpowered in v1.10 however, which means that a lot of unskillful players are now attracted to cookie cutter BH builds. I saw one player bragging about his BH/conc damage tonight... very silly (I'd much rather hear the "brags" of the players like MongoJerry, that beat the game with their bare hands :D ).

[bigeyedbug]

If I knew just a little more than the little I know, I know I would say little more than the little I knew. However...

I'm inclined to agree with LiquidDamage. The regen and high hitpoints of Hell critters are not impossible to deal with, but dealing with these issues is often boring. Or to put it a little differently, while they make the game more challenging, they do not--past a certain point--make the game more enthralling. With alterna-builds it often comes down to

1. Finger endurance.
2. PMH or Open Wounds.
3. Lots of spare time.
4. Party play.

Even though I play almost exclusively solo, I can't fault a decision on the designers' parts to encourage #4. The emphasis of numbers 1-3 (compared to 1.09) however, do not in my opinion make for a better game.
Don't get me wrong--I still enjoy it and 1.1 is an improvement over 1.09, I think. I am glad the enemies move faster, I'm glad just about every enemy is potentially dangerous, I'm glad there's more Champs and Bosses, and I'm basically happy with the randomization of Act V. But making everything take about 2-5x as long to kill is just not exciting.

Anyway, what was this thread about? Explosive thingies of some sort? :huh:

[Obi2Kenobi]

Also, the bows have different levels for their explosive arrows if, and only if the bow/crossbow was found in 1.10. Otherwise, it is just level 1 (with one exception).

http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/in...ndpost&p=393588

1.09:
Demon Machine: 1
Hellcast: 1
Kuko Shakaku: 1
Raven Claw: 30

1.10:
Blood Raven's Charge: 13
Hellcast: 5
Demon Machine: 6
Kuko Shakaku: 7
Raven Claw: 3

[ak404]

You forgot to add enchant. There's a CTC enchant on Lava Gout and enchant charges on Demon Limb.

[LiquidDamage]

Well, the game is often more enjoyable when it is harder (e.g. see MongoJerry stories). Yes a slow killing build player may get frustrated if they are having trouble and think about how easy it is for some cheesy build to do what they are stuggling with. But some things are good *because* they are difficult.

I am not saying it isn't more enjoyable, in fact, I meant to imply that I enjoyed variant play more than cookie cutter play. I never meant to suggest that variant play bored me.

The problem is, at a certain point in the game, monster regeneration turns slow-killing builds into non-killing builds because the monsters regerate faster than the build can damage them. MongoJerry even said himself that at some point Irene will simply not be able to continue on because of this. How fun is that?

Why? Why does monster regeneration exist when it does nothing but limit play options?

[Crystalion]

Why?  Why does monster regeneration exist when it does nothing but limit play options?

italics mine.

Scarcity is itself valuable <== economic meta-principle.

Next time you sit down to play Monopoly with friends ask the following two questions:

1. "Don't you guys hate it when you run out of money?"

answer is likely to be a chorus of "yes!"

2. "How about we each get $2000 instead of $200 when we pass Go!?"

to which, if the answer isn't "you've gotta be kidding!" then I suggest you try it and find out why this is an awful idea.

...

What I'm saying is that *general* limits are absolutely necessary, or *everything* loses its value.

The problem is that "general" must include "particular", which means invariably some particular limitation is going to bother you, since you couldn't make up the rules of the game (to suit) yourself.

Fortunately, with D2 v1.10, it is reasonable to mod the game in many different ways, including the regen issue that bothers you.

Unfortunately, unlike, say, Friday Night Dealer's choice poker, it is problematic to mod rules for computer games but still have a ready supply of other folks to play with.

I'm, for example, playing both classic and LoD on ladder atm. Even being willing to play public games, there aren't very many people available in hell in classic at certain times of the day (e.g. down to just three games at one point, the other night). Classic is very likely to be the single most popular "mod" of LoD we'll ever see, yet I have significant problems finding people to play with.

As for Irene? Well, had MongoJerry allowed her just one "gift" (item or skillpoint) per Act boss quest completion, she could have gone a lot farther. Eventually such a gift might have to deal with monster regen, but that would be a long ways off, I'm sure.

Sounds like you should petition Blizzard to add "PMH aura" to the new anni charm (you know, the one that will replace the current one, when *all* players that have one are banned, because they *must* be cheaters ;) ... and no, I'm not the j/k troll that started that thread).

[Samka]

Thanks for all the responses.

Sadly enough, I'd already maxed holy shock prior to posting this, otherwise I'd certainly have gone for holy fire. So rather than doing 1k piercing area damage, I'm just doing 2k piercing. Ah well, seems like my luck lately (just noticed that venom poison length is capped - so much for my cloak of shadows/venom assassin).

Just out of interest though, does the explosive effect strike the entity that set off the explosion? ie. do the monsters hit directly take double fire damage?

[LiquidDamage]

Next time you sit down to play Monopoly with friends ask the following two questions:

1. "Don't you guys hate it when you run out of money?"

answer is likely to be a chorus of "yes!"

2. "How about we each get $2000 instead of $200 when we pass Go!?"

to which, if the answer isn't "you've gotta be kidding!" then I suggest you try it and find out why this is an awful idea.

I do not see the comparison at all. What you suggest sounds like I am asking them to make 1 skill point in firebolt deal 30-60 damage. Am I asking for my power to be increased tenfold? No, I am asking for my power not to be nullified if it is not above some overly high level.

My first Blade Fury assassin had maxed Claw Mastery and used an ethereal Strength wrist sword. This really is far from variant material, it dealt equivalent damage to a 100% ED elite weapon with 25% crushing blow, and I had a decent AR and damage boost from my skill. Despite this, she took about 2 or 3 minutes to kill pretty much any single monster in act 2 Hell in a 2 person game, because of monster regen. I really think that a 100% ED elite should be enough, in act 2 hell, to actually kill at even a slow rate, considering that you practically have to be there just to find such an item, without farming act 5 NM.

I know that scarcity makes things valuable, but does it make things fun? I find limited options to be limiting, not fun. Knowing that with one small change, I could play many other builds, as long as I had the patience, irritates me. I could play a bow using assassin with venom. I could play a teeth necromancer. I could play a glacial spike/fireballghtning bolt sorceress, or a pure Shadow skills assassin. I cannot do any of these without PMH, and applying PMH with all but the bow assassin would be a serious pain in the neck, and my teeth necro would practically be a poison dagger necro, considering all the stabbing he would have to do.

You know, all the posts responding to me so far in this thread seem to suggest that I am either "bored with challenge" or that I want all my characters to be ridiculously powerful. Where do you get this idea? All I am saying is that I think monster regen should be removed because it does nothing to affect the ubar l33t players, it only hurts variants. I say this because it makes certain builds unplayable past a certain point, depending on how much damage the build deals over time, unless they have a particular item modifier, that must be applied via a physical attack.

I have no interest in petitioning Blizzard, I just felt like expressing my opinion on monster regeneration, and then was suddenly accused of not enjoying challenge. I explained that I enjoyed challenge, but that monster regen simply created a brick wall, and now my opinion is compared to asking for 10 times the money for passing Go in Monopoly, which is ludicrous. Monster regen, in D2C, around 1.03, was totally managable (Sirian's Firebolt sorceress only dealt about 50-60 damage, and killed things in act 4 Nightmare), and I don't recall the game being too easy because of it. Why do you find my opinion so unreasonable, Crystalion?

[Caaroid]

Teeth necros own act1 hell these days...

[Crystalion]

I find limited options to be limiting, not fun.

Yes indeed. I trust I never said limited options were, of themselves, fun. I meant only that limits, in general (not particular), are absolutely necessary.

Knowing that with one small change, I could play many other builds, as long as I had the patience, irritates me.

Believe, I am entirely in sympathy! A game being frustrating in this way is too "realistic"... we want our entertainments sweet, not bitter. This is the crux of the reason why I personally do not play Hardcore. ("with just a few small changes to eliminate *unfair* deaths...")

You know, all the posts responding to me so far in this thread seem to suggest that I am either "bored with challenge" or that I want all my characters to be ridiculously powerful.&nbsp; Where do you get this idea?

Perhaps the posts suggest this, if so I apologize. I certainly didn't mean to imply either.

All I am saying is that I think monster regen should be removed because it does nothing to affect the ubar l33t players, it only hurts variants.

My only "argument" with you is that I think point is incorrect by being incomplete in a major way...

All imo, ymmv, caveat emptor, etc.:

Previous to v1.10 hell global physical resist was the bandage applied by Blizzard to make hell "work". If you had removed just it, you would have returned to the days of hell being a total non-event. In removing it for v1.10 they therefore instead applied a bandage of massive monster HPs which elevates regen in importance. Therefore stopping regen is vital (haha), unless you prefer to attack the new problem with massive damage concentrated in a short time.

If we remove this new bandage, then all of hell will be broken, again. As it is, hell is too easy for some builds, with bugs like the Gloams actually being "features" to keep a little fear in the players (sorry, I mean softcore here, as such a "feature" is a terrible foobar for hardcore, of course).

In short I'm arguing that "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one". Your builds are all fine in normal and nightmare. (The use of the word "your builds" in the preceding sentence is the impersonal pronoun, and not at all meant to refer to you, the person, but rather to the type of builds, which anyone might choose to play, that are under discussion here as suffering greatly due to hell HPs/regen). The hell playground is, currently, essentially reserved for builds solving the damage/time problem (of which regen is a large part, since it transforms this difficulty along the tedious ==> impossible scale).

I have no interest in petitioning Blizzard, I just felt like expressing my opinion on monster regeneration, and then was suddenly accused of not enjoying challenge.

By way of example, with tongue firmly in cheek: I just felt like expressing my opinion on game design and implementation, and was then accused of accusing someone else of something. ;p

In other words, when you see someone as *verbose* as I am, you're probably better off assuming that I sit in a room all day muttering insanely to myself, than to assume that anything I say is meant to reflect upon you, personally. To avoid this misunderstanding, flame wars, and hurt feelings, is why so many of my posts with opinions have "YMMV" tacked on somewhere. Of course, ymmv. ;)

I explained that I enjoyed challenge, but that monster regen simply created a brick wall

Yes, you're entirely correct. I have not disagreed with this at all, I hope (at least to my way of thinking/writing, but ymmv).

and now my opinion is compared to asking for 10 times the money for passing Go

No, I was not assuming anything about your opinion. I was merely trying to illustrate why Blizzard had to be so mean spirited in *general*, that incidentally harms you and your desired builds in *particular*. I thought Go$2k illustrated the point nicely, but obviously I was singing off-key. :(

Why do you find my opinion so unreasonable, Crystalion?

I don't, and I haven't. I have, indeed, suggested that this state of affairs is potentially fixable, either by modding the game, or by petitioning Blizzard to expend more effort "modding" the game (as the official version is always the one easiest to get others to play with you).

My only position (which you are free to disagree with, naturally) is that some other major limitation would be needed in the game. For example, DC, er, I mean Diablo XP Professional, is a pussycat (my personal experience, in the last 3 of 4 encounters) if you do three things...

1. negate his attacks ("don't be there"™ or absorb or...)
2. lower his resist
3. stop his regen

And I put those in (my opinion) general order of importance universally (i.e. quite a few M.O.s can adopt just #1 and be fine ignoring #2 & 3). But #3 is the one that opens up DC kills to more builds/techniques than the first two, because it allows for (slow) kill methods that would otherwise be literally impossible.

In other words, his regen is the feature "most" responsible for making him "hard" (which clearly is desirable, ya?).

I found it challenging to change my equipment to make him "easy", but no longer find (killing) him challenging at all (whereas the first time I fought him, it was epic and challenging, then finally "solved" but barely... i.e. very fun).

I'm a great lover of variant builds and the players that love them. I am truly sorry that v1.10 HPs/regen hurts a lot of those builds. I am very sorry that v1.10 has more than enough bugs to cry out for v1.11 (which may never come, given the Blizzard employee exodus). But on the whole I'm very happy with Isolde's effort, considering. Especially since modders now have a much easier time of making all sorts of fun changes.

I'm sorry if my general enthusiasm, overall, for v1.10, made it seem like I was attacking you by way of disagreeing with what I perceive to be a consequence of one of your positions. (Hey, doesn't Baal say "position" in a delightfully eeeeevvvviiilllll way, just before he vilely splats that poor emissary?)

[LiquidDamage]

Sorry Crystalion, it was late, I was tired, and I overreacted. I feel very passionately about game design (I am a programmer, and interest in game design is what got me into it), and so when someone knowledgable and intelligent disagrees with my views on how things should be, it bothers me a great deal.

I agree that 1.10 was an admirable effort, and it certainly caused me to become obsessed (again) with a 3 year old game I hadn't played in over a year. I do disagree with some of the balance decisions made, and how the whole game seems to me to have been rewritten for those who item farm, trade, dupe, and use ebay (the needs of the many).

As for Diablo XP Professional, I think it is a little silly how one hit with a PMH weapon takes him from nigh-invulnerable to not-much-harder-than-Diablo-95-OSR2. I never liked the concept of Kryptonite, and I prefer difficulty to be overcome through patience, coordination, and skill instead of "use this combination of skills to kill him in 30 seconds, or just take your ball and go home". I saw screenshots of diablo-like minions, and I wonder how cool that could have been as an alternative to the super regen, ultra resistances, and insane damage (that killed my last assassin in one hit) he has now.

Ok, you aren't the only verbose one. I really could keep talking about this all night.

I am sorry for hijacking your thread, Samka, perhaps Crystalion and I should discuss our opinions on game design, balance, and providing challenge through PM.

Feel free to PM me, Crystalion, if you want to keep discussing this.

[Caaroid]

Kryptonite:
Since I never had the chance of meeting DXPPro, I cannot confirm my thoughts on the issue, but I would believe that a BoNeCro (sorry) could easily tear him apart. Prison him till he can't move, and 3k-him to death. Sure, it'd take some time, but in essence he would not stand a chance.

Now as soon as I meet him, I'll confirm these thoughts, but until I do... can someone confrim this?

[Crystalion]

Kryptonite: ...Prison him till he can't move, and 3k-him to death. Sure, it'd take some time, but in essence he would not stand a chance.

Well, as he is totally hyper about imprisoning the player with his little evil force prisonettes, I think turn-about would only be fair play. His bonus vs. "minions" probably comes to bear here, so I imagine he'd dust those prisons in mere seconds (but you, of course, can spam them for free, so that might not matter).

Whether he would regen so fast as to make ~3k magic damage bone spells relatively ineffective I don't know (though I suspect adeyke or Ruvanal might pop by with the relevant regen calculation).

I do know that trying to take him down the first time, when I had PMH but not good survivability (until I wised up and made a 4 socket fire and lightning resist body armor with Rals and Orts) and didn't, at first, use lower resist (too busy dying, actually), was just hopeless (eventually one of the times I'd die and come back from town, he'd be completely at full HPs, aka "reset").

[AtomicKitKat]

You could probably PNova him to death too, although it would SEEM less efficient, bear in mind the following:

1. His poison resistance isn't very big(unless I'm mistaken and it's the same as all the Sorceress's elements at 95)
2. You need fewer skill points to "max out" PNova.
3. You can fire it in ANY position, as long as he's on screen(and even off it to some extent) BSpirit has the limitation that you actually need to kind of "face" him(ie, 20 degrees off is okay, but any more than 45 and your wraith shot is firing into air)
4. Lower Resist will increase PNova's damage, but not BSpirit's.
5. For however short the period of the poison is, he cannot regenerate.

YMMV, but I think a Nova Necro with Lower Resist would probably have the easiest time against the Big Bad Booty Da-D. :P

Edit:

Whether he would regen so fast as to make ~3k magic damage bone spells relatively ineffective I don't know (though I suspect adeyke or Ruvanal might pop by with the relevant regen calculation).

I believe he has 50% Physical/Magic resistance, so 1/2 the 3k(unless 3k IS 1/2 of a max-synergised BSpirit).

[Ferengi]

I believe he has 50% Physical/Magic resistance, so 1/2 the 3k(unless 3k IS 1/2 of a max-synergised BSpirit).

The easiest time is had by a Trang necro with +all skills (about 4 or 5) when that necro can deliver PMH. My way of accomplishing that is Death Bit and Nature's Peace. Afterwards, it's shrimp on the barbie!

The problem with DC is staying alive to be able to cast those PNs. His fire attack needs more than mere 75% FR to survive, not to mention the LBOD.