Defensive Avenger

[Vash]

I'm going to start a defense oriented avenger-din in non-ladder. Current plan:

20 Vengeance
20 Holy Shield
20 Defiance
Some Salvation
Some to possibly max Conviction

The aura that I use will be situational. I'll usually keep Conviction on unless I'm getting my ass handed to me.

Planned equipment:
Tal's Mask for helm maybe?
Baranar's Star
Stone runeword Archon Plate
Ravenfrost
Either I use the Stormshield that I have or I trade it for a Herald of Zakarum
String of Ears for belt maybe?
I'm not sure what gloves, boots, amulet, and second ring to put on him

Initial concerns/questions:
1) Stormshield or Herald?
2) Suggestions for equipment?
3) I'm worried about how well he can tank since Vengeance is not a crowd control skill.
4) I'm worried about keeping his mana up. Mana leech wouldn't do a whole lot of good since it's cut to 1/3 in Hell and Vengeance doesn't add to physical damage. Vulpine wouldn't work too well since the whole point of this build is to NOT get hit :P . Perhaps I should use Zeal occasionally to leech back mana?
5) I'm also worried about life leech. Again since Vengeance does not add to physical damage, life leech won't be very effective. Would Zeal also be the solution to this concern?

Please give me your feedback.

[Caaroid]

You will do no damage. Not just no physical damage, but no damage at all. Vengeance badly needs the synergies, at least in my experience

[Little Faith]

Indeed, and there is also another little detail that makes the Resist auras a good idea to invest in.

Each two points spent (not gotten from items) raise you max possible resistance by 1

If you maxed them all three you could have 85/85/85/75 max resistances without any max resistance gear. With Guardian Angel those 95/95/95 suddenly become achievable.

I am not saying that you should necessarily be spending 60 points in the resistance auras, but putting at least 10 in each is a really sweet idea.


My ideal avenger looks something like this:

Gear: Guardian Angel and Herald of Zakarum + assorted absorb and resist gear.


Skills:

Resist Fire: 10
Resist Cold: 10
Resist Lightning: 20 (for the gloams, alternatively 15/15/15).

Conviction: 20

Vengeance: 1 (this is the shocker, it will still deal decent damage with the bloated synergies and maxed Conviction, and at a minimum mana expenditure).

Holy Shield: 5

...and a lot of 1-point prerequisites. Spare points can be invested either in Resist auras or Holy Shield.



Oh yeah, be sure to step forward and flex your muscles whenever there are Hell gloam-type monsters about. The ladies will love you.

[Vash]

Wow that's kinda discouraging...why doesn't Vengeance do enough damage though? At level 20 it deals 3*184% elemental damage. I mean that's not too shabby if you mix it up wth Conviction.

[KaesarSosei]

Hmm I would query your suggestion to spend any more than 10 in any of the Resist Auras, when using Guardian Angel.

With GA and Level 10 in each aura you will reach 95% Max Resist for each element (except poison). The extra points are surely wasted then?

PS
With 10 in each Resist Aura and Max Conviction, a level 1 Vengeance does do a lot of damage, but the real benefit is that you become the best party character there is...turn on Resist Lightning if Gloams are a problem, or Resist Fire if the Infector of Souls starts blowing his flame around. In all other cases, using Conviction in a large party is simply awesome!

[Caaroid]

It's the same thing as the IK set... looks good on paper and bleeds to death in action.

Then again... if you have a HUGE damage FAST one handed weapon (an ex-Blizzard boss-couple come to mind), it could work.

[Vash]

Wow...this thread's been one downer after another...

Can you explain why IK set sucks in action? I mean, it DOES look very good on paper.

Okay so revision to the skill distribution:
Screw Defiance :lol: max block and level 20 holy shield + Stone is pretty darn good
20 Conviction
20 Holy Shield
20 Vengeance
The rest distributed evenly in the Resist Auras (at least 8/8/8)

I don't want to leave Vengeance at 1 because each point in Vengeance gives me +18% (3*6%) elemental damage and that's better than the resist auras' point/damage ratio.

There's still the issue of life/mana leech. Anyone got some suggestions?

[Caaroid]

I have no explanation to this. Tried IK on a berserker, ww-er and a wolf. A wolf with only 4 items did a LOT better than either barb with 5. No explanation, just death.

[AtomicKitKat]

Or you could just say "screw the individual resists!" and take those 21 points into Salvation(okay okay, 20, chuck the 1 somewhere else or declare your build "finished" 1 level sooner :P) so that your vengeance deals more damage overall(I'm pretty sure it would, just spread out over all 3 types, as opposed to just 1 element getting a hefty boost)

[adeyke]

The salvation synergy is +2% each element. The single-resist synergy is +10% that single element.

Thus, for purposes of vengeance synergy, 5 points in salvation would be equivalent to 1 point each in the single-resist auras (3 total). 20 points in salvation is equivalent to 4 points each in the single-resist auras (12 total).

So, the single-resist auras give more damage synergy and they have the passive max resistance boost (which salvation doesn't). Unless you plan on actually using salvation as active aura, there's no reason to invest in that instead of the single-resist auras.

[AtomicKitKat]

Ignore my previous post then. It was 3.45 am when I wrote it. I think.

[Thlayli]

I actually have put thought on building up a high-end Avenger paladin for version 1.10. Have actually played him to Hell Act 5 lvl 79 so far and must admit that there has been some trouble in the way, although have been able to solo Duriel, Mephisto, Diablo and Hephasto in the way. However, lack of crowd control has been the major problem and usually need to use Zeal around 3/4 of time when surrounded to have enough support life leech. Mana leech hasn't been much of an problem with the equipment I'm using.

Which are:
Upgraded Guardian Angel (with perfect ED%, def 1500), Zakarum (non upgraded, it has too low ED% to be worth it), Tal Rasha's helm (replacing Andariel's until I can wear it at lvl 83), SoJ, Double leech Rare Ring, good quality Cresent Moon, Laying of Hands with Crendenum as belt (+150 to def from 2 parts of the set) and Heaven's Light with 2 Shaels socketed, and also have Annihilus in inventory. Yes, I've put some effort for the paladins equipment, and have nearly the end-game equipment I've planned :)
Also just hired him a Holy Freeze hireling.

However, major flaw currently is his weapon. Heaven's Light is a nice Scepter as it is, but doesn't provide enough physical damage to support high damage from Vengeance. What I've been considering is The Beast runeword, with lvl 9 Fanaticsm when equipped, along the possibility to transform into Werebear. I've been planning to make it out of 5 socket Scourge or maybe Caduceus if I can get my hands into one with nice skill modifiers, but what worries me is can you use any other attacks than basic melee attack or are you able to use Vengeance while transformed? Anybody have knowledge of this? But the lvl 9 Fanaticsm surely sounds lovely enough, even if Vengeance wouldnt work while transformed :)
One drawback is the requested Ber rune too, but I'm hoping to be able to trade for it, starting to have some goods which should be enough for it.

As for the skills, I've them just the way most have suggested... 20 in Vengeance and Conviction, 10 points in every single resist aura, and now pumping up Holy Shield for the rest of the level ups.

But yup, Avenger paladin ain't the everyday choice for version 1.10, but I truly believe that you can make the build really rule with really high-end equipment. Well, think it will still lose to 1.10 Hammerdins, but I find the build boring now as everyone is playing a one, with pretty much equal equipment. Sole purpose of this project has been trying to build sort of jack-of-all-trades character, which can survive out of any situation and being able to kill everything, everywhere.

So, any comments, about the end-game equipment choice, and maybe info about the Werebear+Vengeance ability?

[adeyke]

What I've been considering is The Beast runeword, with lvl 9 Fanaticsm when equipped, along the possibility to transform into Werebear. I've been planning to make it out of 5 socket Scourge or maybe Caduceus if I can get my hands into one with nice skill modifiers, but what worries me is can you use any other attacks than basic melee attack or are you able to use Vengeance while transformed?

It works in axes, scepters and hammers. Not maces. So while a caduceus would work for Beast, a scourge wouldn't.

As werebear, you'd only be able to use normal attack. Not vengeance.

[Thlayli]

It works in axes, scepters and hammers.  Not maces.  So while a caduceus would work for Beast, a scourge wouldn't.

As werebear, you'd only be able to use normal attack.  Not vengeance.

Wee... How come I somehow managed to miss that, luckily I yet didn't have a 5 socket Scourge, might have traded for that Ber and build the runeword with terrible consequences, big thanks for noticing that :)
And hmm... Think I'll have to keep an eye out for 5 socket Berserker Axe then instead, was thinking of that option too, but thought Scourge might be better solution.
Only being able to use normal attack while werebear is a drawback thou, the damage increase would have been nice, but think I'll still aim to build that runeword :)

[Vash]

Still two unresolved issues: leeching and what kind of merc to use. Defiance or Holy Freeze. I'd really love to use a defiance merc but I have a feeling that I'm gonna get my ass handed to me if I don't go with holy freeze.

[Thlayli]

Ok, I got the Beast runeword in 5 socket Caduceus now with +3 to Vengeance (self-found, although needed to use socket quest for it! :)). I must admit it ain't so good that I hoped, but still consider it worth the investment. That Ber rune alone cost me IK and Tal armors :o

However, Fanaticsm surely helps around, it fastens your Vengeance and when need for Zeal leeching, you don't fall far behind from Zealoth Paladin :)

I have 19% ML with my current setup, and that certainly hasn't been any issue. I'm going to drop it down to around 7-10% soon, and think that will be well enough for full time Vengeance upkeep. Life leech is still an issue though, think I have around 25% of it now, and it still ain't enough when fighting really large monster crowds. Situation has improved though, earlier I needed to use Zeal around 3/4th of all time when crowded, when now around 1/5th is enough unless in really bad situation.

Still using that HF merc, although I'm now planning to build Doom runeword (with Holy Freeze active when equipped) next in ethereal Cryptic Axe and replace the merc with Defiance merc... Yes, my insanity has gone beyond normal boundaries with this character build, I'm going to get him all sweets I just can, no matter what is the cost. My defense is around 14k now when using Holy Shield though which starts to be quite good enough already, so for the moment Holy Freeze is top priority with me, and would recommend you to get one instead of Defiance too. Large crowds is the major problem, and you really want to get them slowed down, the hits coming in ain't as large problem as the speed in which they come.

Delirium runeword with the merc is a real life saver too, especially since the runes in it are fairly easy to obtain. The lvl 50 Delirium has it's drawback though, as it makes Baal bug and his minions will not appear if your merc has transformed into Stygian Doll in the game, so you can't use it while baal running, but in other arreas it's almost irreplacable.

So, in a nutshell: Yes, leeching is an issue no matter what you do. Enough mana leech is easy to obtain, but you just cant leech enough with Vengeance alone but need to use Zeal. I don't see this as a problem though as that happens only in really large crowds, and what better your equipment gets, less you need to do it.

In the end, I've found the build to be fun and challenging to play. And there seldom is a game where some of the elemental attack users wouldnt thank you or positively comment your Conviction aura, I find this much more rewarding than getting higher Blessed Hammer damage than the guy next to me :)

[Caaroid]

In the end, I've found the build to be fun and challenging to play.

Jeez, you DO realize that from the cost of that equipment... ah never mind :)

replace the merc with Defiance merc...

In case you're patient, and have a handy enchantress along, do make sure to get the merc in Normal. The bonii they receive are tremendous, and if you follow any of the so called "levelling guides" out there (take the one on dialoii.net), no matter how flawed they are in their approach, if your merc delivers 1k fire damage, he WILL advance rapidly. And I mean it. With, say, a days' woth of playtime you can exp him up to your approximate level (again, only with enchant), and then your build will be even sillier.