Vengeance calculation taken where?

[Squalish]

When is the physical damage that factors into vengeance elemental damage taken?

What bonuses to physical damage are applied before/after Vengeance?

I just read someone claiming that deadly strike affected vengeance, and I'm wondering if it's true. If so, what other things go into effect before the vengeance calculation? +ED?(I assume this is true) strength? fanat?(pretty sure this one doesn't) +max/min/+? damage to undead/demons?

[adeyke]

Vengeance can be considered a sort of special-flavoured off-weapon ED. It uses your weapon damage as base, where weapon damage is whatever is listed on your weapon plus any +min or +max on other equipment.

Suppose you have a 100 damage sword and 100 strength.

You'd have 100 + 100% * 100 = 200 damage, all physical.

Now suppose you have a 100 damage sword, 100 strength and a +100% each vengeance.

You'd have 100 + 100% * 100 (physical) + 100% * 100 (fire) + 100% * 100 (cold) + 100% * 100 (lightning) = 500 damage, of which 200 is physical and 100 each is fire, lightning and cold.

Deadly strike doubles physical damage, so with it, you'd have 400 physical and 100 each fire, lightning and cold.

So, you can increase the elemental damage from vengeance with a higher-damage weapon or with +min/+max equipment, but it's unaffected by other off-weapon ED of any sort and deadly strike.

[ak404]

So, you can increase the elemental damage from vengeance with a higher-damage weapon or with +min/+max equipment, but it's unaffected by other off-weapon ED of any sort and deadly strike.

So wait a minute. You mean Concentration and Fanaticism have absolutely no effect on Vengeance's damage?

Well, that changes things a bit.

[adeyke]

They have absolutely no effect on the elemental part of vengeance. They will still affect the physical part. The physical damage of vengeance is the same as that of normal attack.

[Occhidiangela]

Add to base or not?

[Caaroid]

That pretty much explains it why it's impossilbe to kill anything with Vengeance...

[adeyke]

+min and +max damage on any piece of equipment (including charms and jewels) will add to the weapon damage. The +min and +max on the weapon itself is already included in its listed damage, so that doesn't get added twice.

[Crystalion]

So, you can increase the elemental damage from vengeance with a higher-damage weapon or with +min/+max equipment, but it's unaffected by other off-weapon ED of any sort and deadly strike.

But the mastery type +elem% and lower elem resist% affixes both help, yes? (e.g. facet jewels). A melee sorc using Kingslayer runeword for vengence benefits potentially from all three elem masteries, yes?

And certainly speeding up vengence or increasing the chance that you connect with it helps. Seems like a pretty awesome skill (but I've never really played with it, in all these years!)

Kingslayer vengence is an oskill grant, right? So a baba could dual wield with a paly scepter of +3 vengence with it and actually get the +3 boost, right?

I'd not at all be surprised if the "bug" I reported in beta still exists, in that vengence could be retained (client thinking "normal attack" but server thinking vengence) granted by kingslayer but weapon switched away (do to +all and a little trickery in knowing the way client mouse action selection foobars).

Hmm, talk of bugs reminds me I've not fully investigated ranged lifetap or the retention of set bonuses in "hey, that shouldn't work" cases that I've seen.

[adeyke]

But the mastery type +elem% and lower elem resist% affixes both help, yes? (e.g. facet jewels). A melee sorc using Kingslayer runeword for vengence benefits potentially from all three elem masteries, yes?

Yes.

And certainly speeding up vengence or increasing the chance that you connect with it helps. Seems like a pretty awesome skill (but I've never really played with it, in all these years!)

Yes.

Kingslayer vengence is an oskill grant, right? So a baba could dual wield with a paly scepter of +3 vengence with it and actually get the +3 boost, right?

Yes.

[Crystalion]

Yes.
Yes.
Yes.

Wow, I should ask more questions!...

Is my check in the mail?

Will I win the lottery?

Does the skills.txt Etype column == "Fire" actually determine the +fire skills property qualification for magefists?

...aaaaauuuuugggggggghhhhhhh!!!!!!!! ;)

I see vengence is listed there as "Cold" so my suspicion would be that a (modded) version of something like magefists for cold skills (property) would benefit it, eh?

Pretty easy to test, so forgive me for asking... I just couldn't resist the Pythonesque (bridge) reference post.

[adeyke]

Is my check in the mail?

I haven't done any research into that at this point.

Will I win the lottery?

That's rather unlikely, but it's theoretically possible, if you've bought a ticket.

Does the skills.txt Etype column == "Fire" actually determine the +fire skills property qualification for magefists?

I guess so. I couldn't find any skills that have that listed but which aren't affected. It surprised me that Corpse Explosion and Fire Golem worked with +fireskills.

I see vengence is listed there as "Cold" so my suspicion would be that a (modded) version of something like magefists for cold skills (property) would benefit it, eh?

If such a mod is possible, it's beyond my abilities. I wouldn't know how to change it to +coldskills.

[Crystalion]

If such a mod is possible, it's beyond my abilities.  I wouldn't know how to change it to +coldskills.

ah, glad to be of assistance then...

Many of the properties referred to in uniques.txt, magic*fix.txt, etc. are listed in properties.txt

"fireskill" is what magefists have, and one can see from a quick glance at properties.txt that this is actually translated to item_elemskill with a val1 of 1.

While I do not know anything about changing the text descriptions for uniques (so that things read sensibly, to end-users), I do know that one can easily add a line to properties.txt, such as for "lightskill", using a val1 of 2, and this does what you want (if, for example, you test by changing uniques.txt magefist to use "lightskill" instead of fireskill). I'm guessing that 3 = cold or poison and so forth, although it might be done as a bitfield.

I don't frequent Phrozen Keep, so I guessed this stuff on my own, and have no idea whether better information is available there, buried in the mass of old posts and speculations.

edit: typo fix

edit2: "4" is the value for cold skill, and yes, it does indeed boost vengence, so the Etype column is almost certainly the criteria (which means, incidentally, that the weirdness with traps being multiple minions is all that prevents magefists from helping Death Sentry, afaik). BTW, I have no idea if 8 works for some other "element" but 0 and 3 didn't seem to have any effect for the obvious things to probe.

edit3: I'm done eating dinner now, so I won't bother probing this any further... I saw no effect for 0, 3, 8, so the only values for val1 I know are: 1 = fire, 2 = lightning, 4 = cold.

edit4: Okay, I lied!... here is the enumeration from elemtypes.txt, which is almost certainly the key to val1:

1 fire
2 ltng
3 mag
4 cold
5 pois
6 life
7 mana
8 stam
9 stun
10 rand
11 burn
12 frze

I find that "rand" to be rather interesting... is that the spectral hit stuff maybe? Whether these values, other than 1, 2, & 4, work for val1 for item_elemskill I have not tested.

edit5: I've confirmed 3 for magic and 5 for poison. I did not confirm 9 for Mind Blast, but perhaps my procedure was flawed (or maybe a case statement in the code only does the 5 "primary" elements).

[AtomicKitKat]

Doesn't magic do a "clap" sound when it connects(like Teeth, Bone Spear, Bone Spirit)? That would be one way to test it, I think. And it would probably be easiest to test the different "elemental" damages by modding a shortbow with the relevant type, hand it to your rogue(or any character, for that matter), and observing the "hit-type" graphic. I'm guessing "life" "mana" and "stam" are the different "drain" type attacks. Used by Vampires, Wraiths and Locusts, respectively.

[Tommi]

If it helps anything, I've got this page:

http://www.hut.fi/~tgustafs/weapondamage.html

I just updated the introduction to have a simple formula, and moved technical details to section 2.

Vengeance bonuses act just like other percentage-type total damage bonuses, i.e. they take the weapon damage as their base damage and multiply it by a percentage. Since they are calculated at the same step as Concentration and Fanaticism, the damage enhancement of these effects does not increase the elemental damage of Vengeance. They do increase the physical portion of the attack, as adeyke said.

Cheers,

Tommi

[ryan4nayr]

So wait a minute.  You mean Concentration and Fanaticism have absolutely no effect on Vengeance's damage?

Well, that changes things a bit.

Those auras do help with leeching off the physical dmg, though admittedly not much <_<. Conviction is definitely my aura of choice for Vengeance.