Questions about the voting system in USA

[eppie]

One other thing: I'm not trying to get into an argument I don't belong in, but calling one of the Admins a troll is not what I would consider as the wise choice. I'm not sure what in your post set Occhi off, but returning a harsh tone and labeling him troll is not going to improve this discussion, and dismissing him is not going to bring the thread back to the electoral process of the US.

I did not call him a troll. I asked if he was starting a troll thread. This was really an inside joke actually because a few days ago I asked what a troll thread was and he answered that it was posting something especially to get a lot of comments on it. (check the thread in the lounge from doc titled "sick, just sick)I wanted to keep my reply a bit loose and nice and funny, that's why I decided to write it.
eppie

[eppie]

Communism did not evolve until the mid 19th century, from Marx and Engels of course, and was not put into place very effectively until Lenin and his associates put their stamp on it and tried their best to make it work. 

The Paris Commune of 1871 could, I suppose, be considered an early attempt to apply Communism, but this is where I start to see the Socialism and Communism models start to gel in separate molds.  A variety of Socialist models have more or less worked, while Communist models seem to be as parasitic on their countries as unfettered Capitalism was in the 19th century.

As to a poor leftist ever getting to the White House: there aint no such thing in America.  The real American leftists tend to be pretty well off.   :o  The support for the Left in our Labor Unions seems to have changed shape over the past 30 years, I am not sure how that will play out in the long run.  To argue that Labor has had less of a vote in recent American elections might be true.

sorry I meant of course the beginning of the 20th century.

OO those difficult numbers. :P

[Jarulf]

I did not call him a troll.

Ohh, that was me. Or rather of "trolling" No idea if someone trolling is automatically a troll as well.

[Nystul]

I don't know if the electoral college system really gives increased representation to the badlands. If I'm not mistaken those states lean pretty hard to the right, but it does not matter under the system whether 51% of them vote for the Republican or 99% (and if those states do go to the Democrat, chances are the election is a landslide anyway). So while their representation as states are disportionately big compared to their meager populations, as individual citizens I'd say their votes are not the most the significant. The states where an individual vote "counts more" under this system are actually the states (especially the populous ones) that are considered moderate when it comes to national politics.

[Occhidiangela]

Jarulf's questions were good ones, but he couched his questions in typically condescending European style. So, I decided to repay him in kind.

I no longer going to put up America bashing, from anyone, and particularly from Europeans. I have had about enough hot air and opinion from my esteemed colleagues from across the pond to last a life time, starting with some of the crap I put up with in Italy over the death penalty.

Had the post merely been a matter of "I don't understand, please explain" without the condescension and other garbage thrown in about "how can it be fair," "not how elections should be," and "I am amazed by American" . . . then it would not have been countered by a HEAT round.

Protestations on the innocence of the post require a set of blinders to be worn.

Thanks for your reply, and your suggestion. :) I like you too.

[Occhidiangela]

Jarulf, if you seek merely information, then leave the other baggage and judgment for another thread.

Did I over react? Yes.

[Occhidiangela]

Or rather of "trolling" No idea if someone trolling is automatically a troll as well.

I think that normal internet usage would classify someone who is trolling as a troll, even if for a short while. ;)

[eppie]

I doubt that, viewpoints vary plenty in Europe: lots of parties and agendas. (My fave was Bossi's move to get Northern Italy to secede and resurrect Padonia!) I imagine any European even modestly interested in politics would understand having to reach many constituencies . . . or maybe not

Bossi with his " la padania lavora, la Roma divora" is just a crazy guy. I sometimes try to explain Italians from the north that in europe they are still the south :P .

You have a point here, I wonder how the system will be here after another several more years of united europe. Still you can not compare the difference between a swede, a dutchman and an italian to the difference between a texan, an oregonian (?) and a new yorker. The US has been (I know that the US was more or less formed state by state) one country most of the time, with free movement of people between states, and the same language and religions everywhere (exept Utah of course B) ).
In a few years we can talk about the new european government....at the moment there are just some guys in Brussels who make a lot of money and nobody understands what they are actually doing ;)

[Occhidiangela]

In a few years we can talk about the new european government....at the moment there are just some guys in Brussels who make a lot of money and nobody understands what they are actually doing

I will check my facts, but as I recall, some of those guys are appointed by their parent governments (can't recall the details) which is sorta like how the US used to choose Senators. The States would appoint Senators to the Upper House, and the Lower House would get in via election. That changed with the 17th Ammendment to our Constitution in 1913.

Buy you make an excellent point.

The way the United States came in to being is not at all how the European Union and the "United Europe" has come together. IIRC, the "United Europe" can trace its genesis to the BENELUX agreements just after WW II.

[Moldran]

The EU institutions are making money ? That is news to me.

[Occhidiangela]

The Council is composed of one representative at ministerial level from each Member State, who is empowered to commit his Government. Council members are politically accountable to their national parliaments.

Which Ministers attend each Council meeting varies according to the subject discussed, although its institutional unity remains intact. Thus, Ministers for Foreign Affairs attend in the configuration known as the General Affairs Council to deal with external relations and general policy questions, while the Ministers responsible for economic and financial affairs meet as the Economic and Financial Affairs Council, and so on.

The frequency of Council meetings varies according to the urgency of the subjects dealt with. The General Affairs, Economic and Financial Affairs and Agriculture Councils meet once a month, while the Transport, Environment or Industry Councils meet two to four times a year

That is different from the Parliament, who are elected directly by suffrage,it appears from their site since 1979.

EU Structure

So, who has the real influence and power? The Council, appointed by their home governments, or the Parliament?

Any EU afficianados care to answer that?

[Occhidiangela]

Like many office holders, I'd gather he meant that the persons working were making money for such efforts as they are expending in their jobs. :)

I need to check again, but I think funding is, like representation, on a proportional basis similar to NATO's that is agreed via a negotiated agreement and adjusted every few years based either on population or GDP or both.

Ah here it is, how they make money.

"the Decision of 21 April 1970 replaced national contributions by a system of own resources comprising agricultural levies, customs duties and a budget-balancing resource calculated by applying a rate of 1% - subsequently raised to 1.4% in 1985 - to the VAT base."

Without a tax base, there can be no government at work. :)

[Nicodemus Phaulkon]

... considering that the majority of the responses here actually answered the query, and didn't see the "America bashing". While we're an international population on here, I'd like to further point out the the "Americans" that replied to this did so with patient explanations as well.

Seems the majority of us saw: "This looks silly to me, and I can't understand it within my own understanding of the so-called facts. Can you make it make sense to me?".

Maybe you should check your OWN baggage at the door, Occhi. You're the only one with the problem, here... and it's one that you're creating. Perhaps someone with "Admin" attached to their nickname should be willing to take a few calming breaths between guzzling coffees.

To quote yourself, Occhi... "You're better than that".

[Chaerophon]

I suppose I was splitting hairs, S.D. has something like .3% of the population and .5% of electoral votes. In principle, I don't disagree with slight regional overrepresentation; in my opinion, the New York's and Houston's of the world don't need the extra boost from pure rep. by pop. whereas those states with less clout certainly deserve SOME say. I suppose that that has something to do with my own Canadian perspective and the fact that, even despite some regional overrepresentation in the west, it rarely (if ever) has mattered which way that BC votes thanks in large part to the density of population in Ontario and Quebec.

However, I totally agree with you re: "moderate" states / the swing vote.

[Occhidiangela]

You will read the opening post and be able to find the difference between a pure question and the interwoven judgment.

Did I over react? Gee, if you would read up a bit further to another reply I made to Jarulf, the answer I made to that was yes.

So, your comment added what to the conversation? Thanks for joining me in the zero value added club in this thread. :P

[Bolty]

One other thing: I'm not trying to get into an argument I don't belong in, but calling one of the Admins a troll is not what I would consider as the wise choice.  I'm not sure what in your post set Occhi off, but returning a harsh tone and labeling him troll is not going to improve this discussion, and dismissing him is not going to bring the thread back to the electoral process of the US.

I would hope that if I made a post that was a heck of a troll job, someone here would label me as such and not be afraid to do so because I'm an "admin." Admins are posters here too - and the rules apply to them (and me) as well!

I think Jarulf took an unwarranted beating out of the blue, but that's just my opinion, and in no way an administrative action. Jarulf and Occhi are both stellar posters, and deserve some slack in my book. In fact, Jarulf could write 100 posts that amount to "d00d, j00 sUx0r aNd I oWnZ j00" and he'd still be a great poster in my book, thanks to the endless years of top quality forum participation - not just here, but everywhere. Quite the opposite of myself - I haven't contributed even .001% of the knowledge and material he has to the community.

For the record, Occhi is a site administrator, not a forum administrator. We have enough forum admins between myself, Griselda, Elric of Grans, Mavin, and Lemming to handle the forum.

-Bolty

[[wcip]Angel]

Jarulf's questions were good ones,  but he couched his questions in typically condescending European style.  So, I decided to repay him in kind.

I no longer going to put up America bashing, from anyone, and particularly from Europeans.  I have had about enough hot air and opinion from my esteemed colleagues from across the pond to last a life time. 

Argh.. you struck a nerve. I'm so ashamed I could kick myself.

Just let me do this to soothe my conscience:

Again, I apologize for the disturbingly moronic comment I made about a year or so back concerning your president's abilities as the leader of your nation.

I have departed from all discussions political, not only due to the fact that I have no idea what I'm talking about, but only because I know I can make these horrendous accusations and predictions ("Bush will be the end of this world"... gah, I'm gagging from only remembering this insult again) that *will* offend people of intelligence higher than a roll of toilet paper.

I'm sorry.

There. Thanks for listening. Conscience is somewhat soothed. I can now return to normal life. The thread may now return on-topic.

[WarLocke]

only because I know I can make these horrendous accusations and predictions ("Bush will be the end of this world"...

Hey, I'm an American, so can I say this? :huh:

Seriously though, he doesn't evoke much confidence on this side of the pond, either.

[Archon_Wing]

to bash things. I'm not too fond of my current leader. :) However, the beef I have is that people mindlessly bash America when they clearly do not have the perspective of the whole situation which is quite annoying.

No, I'm not bashing anyone in the nearby vicinity. :P

[Kevin]

Actaully despite my patient answers, I too saw an interwoven derogatory tone in the original quesiton, and it isn't the first time I have noticed it from Jarulf either. But, I choose to ignore it, mostly. My response was couched a bit in a "silly European, don't you realize just how damn big this country is?" though it was toned down from the original response during some edits. I was upset and glad when Occhi blew up because it echoed some of my lesser feeling, but it also was an admitted over-reaction that didn't really help the case if America bashing really was intended. I decided to stay the hell out of that until things had cooled down. So it isn't just Occhi who saw issue. I think others that may have seen it decided to stay the hell away from it as well after Occhi's response.