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who wants hellfire?
03-21-2004, 02:27 AM
Post: #41
who wants hellfire?
Hi,

do you have no idea what you are getting into?

Clearly they are ignorant.

I wonder, has there ever been a locked thread in Griswold's Shop?

There will not be this time, because while I don't give a bucket of warm spit for the opinions of idiots, I do respect this place more than that.

--Pete


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03-21-2004, 02:29 AM
Post: #42
who wants hellfire?
Quote:The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition. 2002.
"You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar"
You can win people to your side more easily by gentle persuasion and flattery than by hostile confrontation.

I am a “bleeding heart” because I would rather gain a convert rather than burn a heretic?

We prefer to be more independent here. Posters are given enough rope to hang themselves. If they succeed, they're out. If they don't, they can stick around. Most of us have no desire to bring out the training wheels just to bring more people into the fold. Quality > Quantity. That was Pete's point.

I am a “bleeding heart” because I would prefer to give someone food rather than tell him he should go hungry?

Logical fallacy: Bifurcation. You present the problem as having only two solutions. It has at least three: Around here we prefer to teach people to fish rather than give them fish.

Quote:I am a “bleeding heart” because I believe that discourse should be polite and civil rather than rude and coarse?

Well, when you say things like this...

This forum and this website also require certain minimum standards of civil behavior. These standards do not include rudeness, disrespect, insults, or self righteous, self-serving comments in the forum posts.

Therefore, I would like to apologize for the contents and tone of the first response that you received, on behalf of myself and likeminded lurkers. It was uncalled for and out of line.


...it really gets people wondering. Not to mention it stepped all over my toes. To imply that Pete violated LL standards when I'd already applauded him is just... wrong. He didn't. I already said so! If you have a problem with a post after I've already given my OK: report the post, e-mail me, PM me, etc. Otherwise, we have gigantic off-topic threads like this one.

I'll again note that for someone who gets upset over rudeness and condescention, you seem to have no problem doing it yourself.

You have to forgive Pete. He is probably young and immature and he “knows not what he says.”

Pete, ... You managed the entire post without being rude or nasty. It makes me proud to believe that I played some small part in your increased maturity.

And now you're a hypocrite. You no longer have credibility with me. Well done!

-Lemming
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03-21-2004, 02:43 AM
Post: #43
who wants hellfire?
Hi Nystul,
Yes, it was definitely meant to be humorous. To be sure I would not be misunderstood, I even included a smiley.
Malach
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03-21-2004, 03:20 AM
Post: #44
who wants hellfire?
Dear Lemming,

I very much enjoyed participating in this thread. :o However, you are completely correct. I did impute your rightful authority in my initial post and for that; I beg your forgiveness. :( Thank you for pointing that out. It is very embarrassing to be hoisted by one’s very own petard. I guess I am going to have to surrender after all. :unsure:

I request your indulgence for one last point. I just can’t resist. It seems to me if we chase someone away, we can’t teach him to fish. ;)

Thanks,
Again, I apologize.

Malach cha Movis

To embarrassed to add a pithy saying. :(
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03-21-2004, 03:37 AM
Post: #45
who wants hellfire?
Quote:I wonder, has there ever been a locked thread in Griswold's Shop? It feels like that is where this is headed....

Please, please, please delete this thread. I beg of you. I come in here to talk about a game that few people play anymore, and instead I find a flame war with high collateral damage.

Pete started the flame war... Then Malacha escalated it... there isn't anyone these two haven't condescended or outright insulted since then. I only chimed in because one of the insults hit me instead of its intended target.

A pox on all your houses!

I'm outta here!

Y'know, there are a million fine looking women in the world, dude, but they don't all bring you lasagnia at work. Most of them just cheat on you.
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03-21-2004, 04:16 AM
Post: #46
who wants hellfire?
To All Lurkers,

The last post by "silented" brought to my attention that I may have inadvertently hit more than my intended target. If anyone feels that I have attacked, insulted, or belittled them in any way please accept my most heartfelt apologies. It was never my intention to do so. I have a great deal of respect for everyone here, even including Pete. My only excuse is that I thought WeiZ deserved better and unfortunately, I helped to escalate it from there.

Thanks for listening.

Malach cha Movis
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03-21-2004, 04:20 AM
Post: #47
who wants hellfire?
Quote:Pete started the flame war...

(You obviously haven't seen Pete in full flame-mode. He was gentle.)

So Pete is in the wrong, and the original poster offering an illegal copy of Hellfire is absolved? This thread is somehow all Pete's fault?

As far as I'm concerned, if someone violates forum rules in their FIRST POST, they deserve whatever they have coming.
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03-21-2004, 05:09 AM
Post: #48
who wants hellfire?
Quote:QUOTE
Pete started the flame war...

So Pete is in the wrong, and the original poster offering an illegal copy of Hellfire is absolved? This thread is somehow all Pete's fault?

Please do not quote me out of context. That's not entirely what I said. I did say that Pete was the first to flame but I also said that Malacha escalated it. In fact everybody that has posted on this dumb thread holds some responsibility.

As far as the original poster is concerned, he has apologized and retracted his offer to pirate hellfire. If that is good enough for the moderator it should be good enough for the rest of us too.

If this thread isn't deleted then we should at least stop bumping it. as long as it's visible it is an emberrasment to us all.

Please delete this thread.

Y'know, there are a million fine looking women in the world, dude, but they don't all bring you lasagnia at work. Most of them just cheat on you.
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03-21-2004, 05:53 AM
Post: #49
who wants hellfire?
silented,Mar 21 2004, 12:00 AM Wrote:If this thread isn't deleted then we should at least stop bumping it. as long as it's visible it is an emberrasment to us all.
You first.
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03-21-2004, 07:40 AM
Post: #50
who wants hellfire?
I belive the word required for this situation is "centric".

My core values on piracy seem to loosely match those of those who are active with animie sub/dub work. The good ones woln't do it for any serries that is reliesed in whole or part to comerical air in the language they work. Most give it away for the cost of the tape.

The bad ones sell it for large prophets, no matter what it is.

I guess it is a little silly of me to try to use that as a comparrison, but becase there isn't a vendor for such a source in such places, I might make an exception in my morals to concider them an 'abandoned market'.

If things where really cut and dry, there wouldn't be a mod making comunity. And Jarulf would be in jail.

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03-21-2004, 07:58 AM
Post: #51
who wants hellfire?
Pete,Mar 20 2004, 09:18 PM Wrote:Hi,

do you have no idea what you are getting into?

Clearly they are ignorant.

I wonder, has there ever been a locked thread in Griswold's Shop?

There will not be this time, because while I don't give a bucket of warm spit for the opinions of idiots, I do respect this place more than that.

--Pete
If it isn't a mater of reduced age, then perhaps the right word I am looking for is crumigedon?

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03-22-2004, 12:27 PM (This post was last modified: 03-22-2004 12:27 PM by Sabra.)
Post: #52
who wants hellfire?
Hi, malach cha movis

Quote:Before others attempt to castigate you

Oh, I don't think that will be an issue. ;)

Quote:the problem does not lie with the one who makes the offer. That person is trying to be helpful or friendly. The major fault would lie with the potential recipient.

I disagree with that statement. First, we really do not know WeiZ's motivation, so I won't pretend that I do. An offer of heroine is still an offer to risk your life. Doesn't matter how nicely the offer is made. (Just taking things to the extreme here.)

There's choice involved for both giving and taking. The responsibility definitely goes both ways.

As for my own little revelation about software sharing, I believe it was in the Dalai Lama's book that I read this quote: "One needs to become intimately familiar with the rules, so that one knows how to break them."

On the issue of piracy, in my mind, there's a difference between offering to rip "Sacred Love" for a friend and pirating a Sting concert to sell on eBay, but in the eyes of the law, it's just a matter of degree.

The Devil was finished when he fell. Faust made his decision. That doesn't mean that both don't burn.

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I blame Tal.

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03-23-2004, 03:46 AM
Post: #53
who wants hellfire?
Well, I still have some questions and I'm sure if I can ask here.

Emulators and old game roms, are they piracy too?
If yes, are those coders and dumpers guilty?

How can I get to know that whether a game has been put in the public domain or not?
Is there any website which gives information on copyrights?

Please help

If any of the words I've written above is against any term here, please forgive me.

WeiZ
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03-23-2004, 04:08 AM
Post: #54
who wants hellfire?
Quote:Emulators and old game roms, are they piracy too?  If yes, are those coders and dumpers guilty?

The emulators are not piracy. Owning a dump of a game you own an original copy to is not piracy. This the law has pretty much defined. It hasn't been tried in court to my knowledge so whether or not it will hold up is another ball game. As to whether or not the coders and ROM dumpers are guilty of piracy is a matter to the courts. But this doesn't pertain to Diablo and as such has no bearing to the discussion at hand.

Quote:How can I get to know that whether a game has been put in the public domain or not?  Is there any website which gives information on copyrights?

US copyright law used to state that a copyright for a work lasted for the author's lifetime plus 50 years. So if you wanted to publish a song without paying the artist royalties, you couldn't do it until they had been dead for at least 50 years and then only if the copyright was not passed to someone else and had become part of the public domain. I am not sure how long a corporate copyright lasts though.

As far as finding out whether a game has been put in the public domain or not, easiest way is to visit the company's website. If they offer the game free to download, they probably don't care what you do. If they still sell it, chances are you better buy it and not download it if you want to own a legal copy. When the software is not distributed at all anymore is the grey area. Companies love to own things and won't ever sell unless they are paid enough for them, and they will hold onto it as long as they foresee some potential money in the future or if it doesn't cost them anything to let it sit. You can probably even offer it up to download as long as you don't get too popular with people as companies don't like messing with things that cost them more money to fight than what they would gain. Not that this is a license to pirate of course, the company could get ticked and sue you and then you're in trouble.

All that said I do my best to buy original copies, but I'll just have to do without until I can find the copy. That is who I am and my moral position, but that doesn't make it the law or absolute. I just believe what I am doing in not pirating and calling other people out on it is "right" to me, and the law just happens to be on my side ;-)
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04-07-2004, 11:40 PM
Post: #55
who wants hellfire?
Here's a thought to everyone whining about Hellfire:

Why don't one of you who are interested in either 1.) Obtaining Hellfire, or, 2.) Making it public domain or shareware, write an email or letter to Sierra On-Line and tell them your situation and stance. Ask them if you can purchase a copy from them or if they stopped carrying copies, and if thats the case, how you can go about getting one. If they say, "go get one from the local gaming store," them you can keep bugging them until they, 1.) File a restraining order, or, 2.) Make it public domain.

The entire proccess may take years, but at least you'll be working towards accomplishing your goal instead of whining about it here and accomplishing nothing :D .

Just my 2-cents. Oh, BTW, I just sold my Hellfire + Diablo copy on eBay, (check user name: meat_diablo) however the person still hasn't paid me for it, so I may have to put it back up for auction. I'm selling the original because I have a burnt copy :P (which is legal, so long as I have the original - but what should I do after selling it? I know what I'll do with it :lol: ).

"What good fortune it is for governments that the people they govern do not think." - Adolf Hitler
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04-08-2004, 10:32 PM
Post: #56
who wants hellfire?
Quote:which is legal, so long as I have the original
Quote:I know what I'll do with it
So therefore what you must do is destroy it as long as you sell it.

I know my title is misspelled. I'll get around to fixing it later, it's not that big of a deal. Wink
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04-10-2004, 01:28 AM
Post: #57
who wants hellfire?
I think you'd all got weiz wrong.because i'm a chinese,too.I would like to say something for those who did not know or just a little about the different between china and the US
Actually,the cpoyright laws in China equal to zero . not only because the goverment did not pay much attention on it, but everyone in china didn't think that copyright is legal.(terrible,eh?)People always buy software in a stall which sells every kind of software(from winxp to fpe),and they often cost not more than $0.5.
i don't know if anybody mentioned that chinese software-shop has already no made-in-china games.that's because the fatal damage of those low costs software.chinese game company has been disapointted. and everyone admires the hackers better than God. WEIZ's action will be praise by chinese game players.

notice that there's still a lot of people who got less than $70 every month in china


spare my spelling and phrasing
04-10-2004, 05:08 AM
Post: #58
who wants hellfire?
Just exactly where is pirating Hellfire illegal. As you mention, China isn't one of those places, and I'm not sure of the fact that Hellfire wasn't made in China, matters one bit.

I'd also be curious to see how the copyright laws are in other third-world countries, where the % of software that is pirated is far higher. (Interesting inverse corrolation between mean income of a country and level of software piracy...)
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04-10-2004, 05:19 AM
Post: #59
who wants hellfire?
Nightwind,Mar 21 2004, 02:31 AM Wrote:My core values on piracy seem to loosely match those of those who are active with animie sub/dub work.
The american anime DVD and ultimately TV industry exists... because of fansub piracy. Before there was any of this commerical stuff, there was only fansubs. Some DVD people saw the demand, looked at which fansubs were most popular, and started mass-producing them for sale. This then led to the idea of a fansubber as one who raises enough recognition for a work to get licensed. The Japanese companies know this, and that's partly why they don't try and stop the people at home from recording and circulating the material. To this day American companies still (somewhat) look at popular fansubs for licensing material. A form of piracy built and continues to build a supposedly legitimate industry.

Quote:And Jarulf would be in jail.

With legality, location is everything. Jarulf's country isn't as anal about reverse engineering as the U.S. (Exactly someone else's point about the narrow U.S. Centric thinking. Software Piracy isn't even illegal in China, intellectual property belongs to "the people" there.)
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04-10-2004, 01:44 PM
Post: #60
who wants hellfire?
Quote:The american anime DVD and ultimately TV industry exists... because of fansub piracy.

(Remember when you read this that I'm almost 54 years old and can remember the first time I ever watched television.)

One of the things that I think is so interesting today is how the entertainment business is changing (or trying desperately NOT to change) due to the internet and available consumer technology. Personally I think these changes are brilliant and I'm all for it, as it gives the consumer more control over their purchasing dollars.

Before music file sharing came along, I barely bought any cds at all, because I was so put off by their retail price vs their cost to produce. Now I don't have to pay $18.00 for a cd I might not even like. I sample it first to see if I want to own it. If I don't like it, it's off my HD in seconds. If I like some of it, I keep what I like and discard the drek. If I really like a lot of what I hear, I buy the cd. Simple.

I have more control and the recording industry is actually getting more of my money than it was in the last 20 years. Now I can be more selective in my spending. That rocks! That's an empowerment.

The internet is redefining the consumer and how s/he behaves. I think it's a good thing that forces existing establishments to rethink their structure. That's how we get growth.

I think of it as the triumph of the amateurs.

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I blame Tal.

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