Looting rules for dual spec

[Ynir]

Spangles left her former guild because of corrupt looting practices. She formed a new guild with a group of friends. We can field ten guildies for a raid, but heroic raids require ten or more invited guests (pugs). Our raid leader has a fat Rolodex of good players of long standing, so the raids are usually successful & fun.

Keeping them fun requires quick and easy loot distribution. If the guild grows sufficiently to field an heroic raid we will probably adopt an EPGP strategy, meanwhile we roll dice. We need safeguards to prevent greedy behavior and resultant loot fights.

The guild officers talked over the complications arising from dual spec, and I wrote these guidelines.
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I haven't seen any general discussion of the dual spec looting issue. It is going to be a problem until some conventions are adopted. The most complicated case is the guild raid with pugs. Supposing we instituted a system based entirely on the dice, with no "loot council" decisions at all.

We could institute consecutive mainspec/offspec/nospec rolls, the last roll being disenchant prevention. You can roll mainspec or offspec or nospec. You can win one mainspec roll, one offspec roll, and one nospec rolls per raid, that's it. There is no weighing for loot quality, tier or whatever. Everyone gets 3 pieces max, no exceptions, the rest gets sharded. Better to shard loot than endure loot fights.

Mainspec/offspec characterization is the problem. Who decides what is main/off for a player? Would a boomkin refuse to heal a fight if this prevented him from rolling mainspec on a dps item? You can threaten to gkick a member from the guild, but you have no traction if he is a pug and you need him to finish the raid. Suppose then that main/off/no are not related to the function of the raider, but just names for roll1/roll2/roll3, respectively.

A worst-case scenario: the Surge Needle ring drops, every tank, rogue & hunter in the raid rolls mainspec. A tank wins it on roll1 for his dps offspec, beating out the melee. This is Bad because a rogue would use the ring more often than the tank. This Badness is offset by (1) no ambiguity in the rules, no opportunity for argument, no loot fights, (2) more dps when the tank isn't tanking, (3) in the long run everyone who wants it will have the ring.

Point 2 is trivial when a tank puts on dps gear without respeccing ("they say a monkey in silk is still a monkey"). It is not trivial when the tank can respec instantly and provide enough dps to prevent a 2% wipe. A more important example is when hybrids spec in/out of healing. If you have three or four respecs at every fight, gearing offspec becomes a major tactic for fine-tuning difficult boss fights. The importance of this new tactic trumps a rogue's automatic priority on a Surge Needle ring.

The rules are simple to list for the raid:

1. Each item will get a mainspec roll, an offspec roll if nobody rolls mainspec, and a nospec roll if nobody rolls mainspec or offspec.
2. You can win only one item each with a mainspec, offspec or nospec roll for a maximum of three items per raid.
3. You may not win more than one item per boss.
4. All items are equivalent: tier, armor, weapons, offhands, whatever.
5. BOE items won mainspec or offspec are equipped immediately. They may be sharded or sold by a nospec winner.
6. Illegal or mistaken rolls will be voided by the lootmaster.

Illegal rolls have a strict definition: someone rolls main/off/no in a category where they have already won an item.

Mistaken rolls are for items that the winner can't possibly equip: a mage rolls on plate, or a 2h sword. The definition could be broadened to include stats a class can't use, but this might preclude a dps warrior winning leather, for example.

This is the simplest system for pug raiding that I can think of. We have to consider the issues before we become engulfed in dual-spec looting hassles.
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We have been raiding since 3.1 with this scheme, so far without major complications. We use two rolls per item instead of three.

There are still those who Don't Get It ("why did the tank get Betrayer of Humanity?"). However our pugs tend to be well geared members of big guilds who are just out for fun, which makes things simpler.

But anything that can be disputed or corrupted will be. I welcome comments on topic: looting rules for dual spec, dice rolls only, no DKP.

[Taelas]

A tank has no business rolling on a DPS ring like that until all physical DPS has gotten it.

Your system would probably work fine if everyone understood what gear is useful to them and to their role, but it won't happen.

I also don't think sharded loot is particularly smart -- it's better than loot issues, I guess, but what isn't?

[Tuftears]

Take spec declarations at the door, with the understanding that if someone respecs for a particular fight or for the raid's needs, they can still roll on items for their declared spec, and they count as offspec otherwise, i.e. an enhance shaman who is temporarily healing for a raid counts healing gear as offspec.

[Klaus]

Take spec declarations at the door, with the understanding that if someone respecs for a particular fight or for the raid's needs, they can still roll on items for their declared spec, and they count as offspec otherwise, i.e. an enhance shaman who is temporarily healing for a raid counts healing gear as offspec.

The opening for exploitation here is paladins: Every holy pally will declare ret or prot as their mainspec, since there's no competition for their true mainspec gear.

[Taelas]

The same is (more or less) true for Restoration shaman, whose only competition is... Holy paladins.

Well, and Elemental, I suppose. Hmn.

But a main spec would have to be approved by the raid management, so it doesn't really fly, either way.

[Sir_Die_alot]

As tuft said take spec declarations at the door. Main > offspec. The issue of saying "I'm ret" as was pointed out but I don't see a problem. People who pull that sort of thing find other ways to make jerks of themselves and end up not reinvited again. In the case of dual spec, pretend it does not exsist. A larger guild it might be worthwhile to set something up but not someone bringing pugs.

The issue you have is potentially running mixed guild/nonguild pugs. There are a couple things you can do. The most common is reserving loot. Things come easy in Naxx so your guild members probably only NEED 3 or 4 items each, figure out what those are and work it out with the pugs. DON'T reserve tier pieces unless they are just too exceptional. DO NOT reserve pieces that can be bought with badges. Reserve things that are more unlikely to drop and share common stuff fairly or even favoring (in trade for the rarer drops) with your pugs.

[Pantalaimon]

3. You may not win more than one item per boss.

I'm curious as to the rationale behind this rule.

This is a successful (and, I'd daresay, pretty standard) set of rules; the only real loopholes have already been mentioned with regards to specs with no competition "faking" a mainspec, but that's something that can only really be fixed on Blizzard's end (plus, they'll miss out on jewelry).

Disregarding the labels of "mainspec" and "offspec", I think a simpler solution is to /roll 100 for your third tier (DE Prevention) rolls, /roll 101 200 for your 2nd (lower priority) need roll and /roll 201 300 for highest priority need roll. Spec rules need not apply, because people still have to be smart about what they burn their high priority roll on, and they get a finite number of the higher-tiered /rolls. Also gets it out of the way quicker, because there's only one roll "round".

As you seem to have alluded to, once your runs are semi-permanently guild members only, you have a lot more flexibility and can adopt the "loot goes where it's most useful for the guild" mentality; for now, with a high percentage of the raid being pick ups, you don't really have a choice, as you seem to have recognized.

[Swiss Mercenary]

Sharding loot in my mind, far from ideal, especially given the loot pinata that is Naxx 10/25.

When my guild was doing alt Naxx 25 runs, we sometimes brought in PuGs - and when we did, the loot guidelines were....

First roll an item for "Guilty" main spec.

If no main spec rolls it goes to "Guilty" offspec.

If no rolls for either, it goes to "Guilt-free" rolls.

You can win a maximum of 3 "Guilty" items. You are not limited on "Guilt-free" rolls.

You announce your main spec and offspec when the raid starts (For guild alts, it was when their character hit 80). If you are asked to respec for a fight, it changes nothing. Think of getting a chance to respec as an alternative to getting replaced... So people asked to do so shouldn't complain.

We sharded almost no gear, people who came in with 80 blues did not get chances to roll on hot-ticket items, having used up their 3 "Guilty" rolls, and there was zero complaining... Except from healer mains who were playing tanks, and saw the Torch of Holy Fire go to alts and pugs week after week.

[Sir_Die_alot]

Except from healer mains who were playing tanks, and saw the Torch of Holy Fire go to alts and pugs week after week.

This is why you have them declare as healers. If anyone objects boot the best geared pug healer and say "ok anyone know a well geared tank?":P

[Taelas]

You announce your main spec and offspec when the raid starts (For guild alts, it was when their character hit 80). If you are asked to respec for a fight, it changes nothing. Think of getting a chance to respec as an alternative to getting replaced... So people asked to do so shouldn't complain.

By the same token, you can see asking someone to respec as an alternative to getting a replacement -- a replacement who will have a different main spec/off spec combination. It doesn't make much sense, honestly. If you ask someone to respec, you are asking them to change their role.

The people involved should get a choice of whether they want to stay with the current loot priority or if they want to switch. It is not fair to ask a Retribution paladin to spec Holy for a fight (if they don't have a dual spec, or if their off-spec is Protection), then deny them any chance of Holy paladin loot. Of course, once chosen, it should not be changed (at least not until another respec happens).

[Swiss Mercenary]

This is why you have them declare as healers. If anyone objects boot the best geared pug healer and say "ok anyone know a well geared tank?":P

No, their alts are warriors, and their main healers need the torch (Which dropped only twice in our main raids).

By the same token, you can see asking someone to respec as an alternative to getting a replacement -- a replacement who will have a different main spec/off spec combination. It doesn't make much sense, honestly. If you ask someone to respec, you are asking them to change their role.

Their typical role is still their main spec. If we asked them to play their offspec more then their main spec, they could spec change. The raid benefits more from gearing up their main spec, then gearing up their offspec. Would you really give a BIS healing weapon to someone who specs healing 5% of the time? Because if so, in terms of raid performance, you may as well had sharded the item.

The people involved should get a choice of whether they want to stay with the current loot priority or if they want to switch. It is not fair to ask a Retribution paladin to spec Holy for a fight (if they don't have a dual spec, or if their off-spec is Protection), then deny them any chance of Holy paladin loot. Of course, once chosen, it should not be changed (at least not until another respec happens).

The spec change is required for raid success. The way we see it, is if someone is unwilling to do it, we would far rather bring in someone else who will - for that run, and subsequent ones. No incentives, besides not getting replaced, should be necessary.

Demanding to roll on holy gear on the same level as main-specced healers because you respecced for one fight, is me (Back when I played enhancement) trying to argue that because I was told to off-heal people who stood in the fires in Archimonde, I should be eligible on healing loot.

You pick a spec you want to get loot priority on, and you stick to it. Just because you are asked to respec, doesn't mean that you should be able to cherry-pick which bosses you get which type of loot off.

[Taelas]

While that is a good point, it is still not a fair situation. I guess the best thing would be to avoid it altogether.

[Ynir]

Our looting policy has evolved to handle two situations: gearing alts or filling off-spec slots in pre-3.1 instances, and gearing main spec in Ulduar.

The rules for pre-3.1 gear are lax: there are two rolls for each item, priority and non-priority, for any usable item, for either spec. Raiders can roll repeatedly in either category, but will always lose if they have won previously in a category to someone who has not.

Ulduar loot is important, so the two rolls are main spec/ offspec, according to the function for which the raider was invited. Exceptions are made for those who are asked specifically to change spec for a fight. Raiders may win once only in each category.

Most of the non-guildies in our raids are personal friends of the guild officers. They tend to be alts from major guilds, and are not loot hungry. Mistaken loot assignments are easily fixed by opening tickets.

Problems can arise when we go /lfg to fill slots, however. We can be victimized by pugs that complain about everything that happens, or roll for everything that drops, confusing the lootmaster. A more subtle problem are pugs who do not understand our rules, or refuse to understand. An episode in a pre-3.1 instance led to this thread:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.h...903511513&sid=1

I personally find the OP officious and verbose.:mellow:Is there a point buried in the verbiage?

I think not. Our rules in our instances are Law. The Law is carefully explained. If you don't agree you are free to leave. Not knowing or understanding the Law on your part doesn't constitute mismangagement on our part. The problem is that the OP did not understand what the Law really meant until he found out the hard way.

The underlying issue is that WoW culture generates expectations of who is more worthy of what ("reputable guilds always do it this way") and these expectations are carefully tuned to the momentary advantage of whoever is expressing them. I like the way that simple rules and the hard edge of a dice roll cut through these knots.

[Sir_Die_alot]

I don't know how you're running it but if your rules are really complicated make a macro outlining them and spam it before a run starts. End the macro "if you don't read this, it's your fault".

[Swiss Mercenary]

The revised system for pre-3.1 loot makes a lot more sense - people are encouraged to roll on minor upgrades, but ideally, everyone will walk away with something. Loot is also not getting sharded. I really don't see why a hard cap of one main-spec item (Regardless of how contested, or uncontested it is) per night is enforced for Ulduar loot, though...

[Ynir]

... I really don't see why a hard cap of one main-spec item (Regardless of how contested, or uncontested it is) per night is enforced for Ulduar loot, though...

I suppose that, for example, four tanking items could drop and the last go to an offspec because the three tanks had already won main spec items. This hasn't happened, because the fights are new and we can only do four or five bosses on opening night, and one or two later in the week. Loot that is class/function specific is always absorbed, even with the cap, simply because there isn't a lot of it.

Most Ulduar loot is too new to fall through two rolls and get sharded. I disenchant unwanted items for the guild bank, so I see what ends up in the dumpster. Armor tends to be leather or mail with sidegrade stats. Weapons tend to be daggers and 1h swords/fist weapons. I don't see rings, necks, trinkets, offhands, plate, or 2h weapons.

One major exception was Ironsoul, a 2h mace with armor penetration. I salvaged it, changed my arms spec to maces from axes and regemmed from strenth to armor penetration. I can chop undergeared clothies in half with one MS. Until 3.1.2, when Juggernaut is nerfed.