Anyone have Moomba's Trainer?

[Fragbait]

Nut Tyranny


EDIT: changed offensive content.

[--Pete]

Hi,

There is a lot of pretty good evidence that the price limit is a bug. That it, as well as a lot of other things, should have scaled with the difficulty level.

The problem with "bug" is that it usually means a programming error such as the mana shield bug from early on that reduced the effectiveness of mana shield as its level increased -- a simple screw up in one part of one formula. However, as anyone that knows computer modeling knows, there are at least three types of bugs:

1.) The model does not represent reality. In game terms, this means things that are not internally consistent in the game world. Such as two handed weapons doing only slightly more damage than one handers, or the ability of all classes to learn all spells. These reflect either lack of design (the game was just thrown together and tweaked until it was "fun" (a la Buzzard)) or poor design choices (the designers didn't sit down at a spreadsheet and play "what if").

2.) The equations do not represent the model. The designer knew *what* he wanted but was mathematically clueless as to how to implement it. D1 is rife with this, as shown by all the modifiers that change something by a percentage of the base value and then other modifiers that add a constant -- the two are exactly the same in effect but were not supposed to be in intent (the Prima Strategy Guide has the minor value that, since it was written with the input of the developers, their intent is known, It is a sad commentary on their ability when the intent is compared to the implementation).

3.) The programmers screwed up. This is the type of bug that most people can agree on. Examples are the decreasing effect mana shield (fixed), the god mode mana shield (still in the game), the drop and belt click on pickup dup (still in game?) and a few dozen more. These are due to poor testing and poor communication between the designers and the testers.

Now, there are two extremes: the one I subscribed to before Diablo was pretty much anything goes, including hacking the code. But, that was because I only played two kinds of games back then. Single player which are a competition between the designer and the user and server based multiplayer, where hacking the server (if possible) was part of the game. Of course, after (and sometimes before) taking the game apart like a cheap watch, it was always fun to see if one could beat the game "fairly".

With Diablo, I encountered something new to me. An online community of mostly clueless people. I could not play with those people in the manner that I had played with online players in the past, and since these were indeed people and not just bots in a single player game, taking advantage of them (or of loopholes in the game, which amounted to the same thing) was not something I was comfortable with. That pushed me somewhat towards the opposite extreme, more or less "playing it how it was intended", where the interpretation of what was intended was pretty much decided by community consensus. And in the DSF community (which gave birth to the Lurker Lounge as well as a few other groups) pretty much anything falling into error type 3 was considered "cheating". One can quibble with the use of the term "cheating" if no one is being cheated (and I often have). One can also point out that by using exploits, one is "cheating" others of a gaming experience they have some right to expect. But, ultimately, like chowing down on your neighbors, the morality of exploiting bugs is determined by community standards. Anyone who is a member of that community accepts those standards. That is not a requirement, it is a tautology. A community, just like a game, is defined by its rules.

--Pete

[LemmingofGlory]

Some questions are a bit more tricky and cannot be answered easily by common sense (I think that CC damage and maybe also FB damage fall into this category).

CC damage is very easily answered by common sense. Damage vs MonsterClass is always applied to total damage, just as Swords do more dmg vs Animals/less vs Undead and Maces do less vs Animals/more vs undead. So, if CC's damage is buggy then the way Swords and Maces work is also buggy, and people who get upset about CC should also froth at the mouth over swords and maces.

As for FB damage, I believe the issue is splash damage being applied to the target square instead of just adjacent squares. Examining how splash damage works with other spells would give you some idea as to how FB damage is "supposed" to work. However, even if FB works improperly it'd be rather silly to expect players to not use a spell that legitimately appears. Similarly, in the MS bug debate we don't say "Don't use MS" but "If you want to avoid the MS bug, make sure you're fully healed and take as few BD hits as possible." For FBall damage, the only way to avoid the bug is not to use the spell.

-Lemmy

[Tal]

This seems to be the standard response anymore. Yes, I did read your post. I have read every post in this thread. I simply asked you to limit your "examples" to areas in which all of us are conversant in the rules. We can't debate the merits of your formula racer example so I asked you to limit your examples to what we are all familiar with.

I'm not certain where you are going with this comment:

Nah... Typical ?

But I find it more than a little insulting. It certainly seems to be impying that I typically jump into conversations and debates without having spent the time to read everything. This is not something I have done in this case and is certainly not something I am in the habit of doing.

[LemmingofGlory]

Could you quickly explain the 'Zen Bug' thingy?

In D1 (but not Hellfire), if you have an item of Balance, Stability, and Harmony equipped, your hit recovery speed is faster than Harmony.

Do you consider save/reload a cheat?

I've touched on this already. See previous posts.

Now, as from your 'bug exploiting' point of view, this would be cheating.

False assumption.

But I hope in this very moment you realize it wasn't.

You assume your reason is the same as my reason.

And that's the way it goes with several a game. I still won't blindfoldedly call every bug exploiter a cheater. It simply is wrong to generalize so much in this aspect (as in many others).

Are you saying that I do? If so, re-read what I've written.

-Lemmy

[Fragbait]

Hi Tal,

I was refering to the statement you made:

I will state that at the very least the exploitation of game bugs goes against the spirit of competition.

It seemed to me that you overread that I also said several times that the exploitation of game bugs can be very cheesy. With this I meant the exact same thing you said - that's why I thought you perhaps had read only parts of my response.
If you indeed haven't, I apologize.
In fact, I apologize either way.
The N T wording I chose was inapropriate and I didn't mean to insult you. It's not that I bear you a grudge or something... Really!

As to what concerns my (unfortunate) example, I just wanted to explain why bug exploiting isn't cheating in every case IMO. Oh well - just forget that example.

I do hope to offer you a cup of coffee someday.


Greetings, Fragbait

EDIT: By the way, did you change your name? I could swear there had been a number included sometime. 'Twas 125 or something. Am I right?

[Fragbait]

Hi Pete,

Thanks for your detailed, factual reply.
I have nothing more to add, except perhaps:

the morality of exploiting bugs is determined by community standards.

With this being true, and me (somewhat) being a member of the community, I merely exert my right and privilege to say my opinion.
A vivid community lives on the variety of its members' opinions.

Greetings, Fragbait

[Fragbait]

Hi LemmingorGlory,

Thanks for the explanation on the Zen topic.
With save/reload I merely meant the reset of the townsfolk's inventory with it, no restoring a character by copying save files or whatever. Just the normal save and reload function of Diablo, in case we misunderstand each other:

This includes using your operating system to restore a character who suffered a game-sanctioned loss (e.g. item loss because you died in H/H and couldn't retrieve them).

(I guess you were refering to this when you said you already touched on this subject)

Next point: So you don't think what my friends and I did was cheating? Or ... what?
So we have different kinds of reasons/logics. Mind clarifying that a tiny bit for me (for the dumb, you know)?

I wouldn't say how you call him (what you call him) blindfoldedly, but didn't you cite bug exploiting as your first point of what is cheating?
Just saying that I wouldn't claim that in such a generalized fashion.
No offense.


Greetings, Fragbait

[LemmingofGlory]

With save/reload I merely meant the reset of the townsfolk's inventory with it, no restoring a character by copying save files or whatever.

Refreshing townsfolk inventory is a game feature. Next question.

Next point: So you don't think what my friends and I did was cheating? Or ... what?
So we have different kinds of reasons/logics. Mind clarifying that a tiny bit for me (for the dumb, you know)?

Now, the practical purpose of all this is to determine two things:
(1 -- Multiplayer Aspect) Is this person someone I want to game with?
(2 -- Maintaining Gameplay Standards) If they have engaged in "shady practices," have they done something such that I discount any possible achievement they might make? This is also self-applicable : do I discount my own achievements with a character because I knowingly/unknowingly did some strange stuff?

If the game was not multiplayer, ignore 1.

As for 2: After comparing your scores with one another, you and your friends decided to do the same thing: look for more "off-track" areas you could use to shorten your times. Therefore, all of you were playing by the same rules. There was no one to cheat.

I wouldn't say how you call him (what you call him) blindfoldedly, but didn't you cite bug exploiting as your first point of what is cheating?

"Blindfolded" my ass. I've twice re-quoted the practical purpose behind the cheater label. If there is no practical purpose behind the label, nobody's going to yell "cheater."

-Lem

[Sabra]

This is such a great thread. I run over here whenever I can to see what's going on in this topic. I get a wave of nostalgia, remembering how all these very smart people would take this game apart in its every aspect and then put it back together again. You guys never cease to amaze me. (And I'm serious this time, Lemmy.)

[Fragbait]

Hi Sabra,

It's been a pleasure.
Good to see that someone is actually happy with the thread... :)
Have fun!


Greetings, Fragbait

[Fragbait]

Nemesis Theory

[Fragbait]

Hi,

Did some research and just want to clarify my results:

"Furthermore, the game considers the character to be in a state of death for a small period of time before his/her hit points are "refunded" by the Mana Shield. During this period of death (fraction of a second) the character is actually rendered immune to attacks, and cannot be knocked backward as well."

- this is actually what you meant with god mode, isn't it? So god mode is another expression for mana shield bug.

"If a character goes to pick up an item as he/she is entering a Town Portal, a dupe will appear on the other side, thus creating the same item in town and in the dungeon. Neither item will be destroyed."

- this must be what you refered to as duping. I find this hard to believe, as I assume to have behaved like that many times, i.e. walking through a town-portal and in the last second deciding to pick up one last item I had overlooked. But if they say so, it's probably there. One question, though: Assuming you are in a dungeon, i.e. the caves lvl 10, and cast a portal. Does the bug appear when you pick up an item while being in the townportal square already and the dublicate will be placed in town while you fail to take the portal and stay in the caves? Or does the bug appear when it already is determined that you entered the town portal and the dublicate is placed in the caves, whereelse you yourself are portalled to town?

Greetings, Fragbait

[Nystul]

"Furthermore, the game considers the character to be in a state of death for a small period of time before his/her hit points are "refunded" by the Mana Shield. During this period of death (fraction of a second) the character is actually rendered immune to attacks, and cannot be knocked backward as well."

- this is actually what you meant with god mode, isn't it? So god mode is another expression for mana shield bug.


Some people actually do refer to the bug listed above as a form of god mode. That is, in my opinion, an absurd characterization. But let's leave it at that, because I really, really don't want this to turn into a thread about that bug.

Anyways, I do not think this is what Moldran was referring to. I think he was referring to the "Zero Hitpoint Issues" bug. In this particular case, the character is literally invincible unless he leaves the level or does something to raise his health (or gets healed by another player). An interesting twist on this bug is that it can happen to golems too, so you can have an invincible character with an invincible golem for however long it takes to clear a level. All this without any modifications or third party software. You can see where people might consider these things cheating.

"If a character goes to pick up an item as he/she is entering a Town Portal, a dupe will appear on the other side, thus creating the same item in town and in the dungeon. Neither item will be destroyed."

- this must be what you refered to as duping. I find this hard to believe, as I assume to have behaved like that many times, i.e. walking through a town-portal and in the last second deciding to pick up one last item I had overlooked. But if they say so, it's probably there. One question, though: Assuming you are in a dungeon, i.e. the caves lvl 10, and cast a portal. Does the bug appear when you pick up an item while being in the townportal square already and the dublicate will be placed in town while you fail to take the portal and stay in the caves? Or does the bug appear when it already is determined that you entered the town portal and the dublicate is placed in the caves, whereelse you yourself are portalled to town?

You fail to pick up the item and successfully go through the portal. The item drops onto the ground, both in town and in the dungeon. The location in town would be equivalent to the location in the dungeon, which means it could be in an unusual or even unreachable spot in town. You've probably done this accidentally at times, but either didn't find both copies or didn't realize they were dupes because it was something mundane like a white item or a pile of gold. There is an ironic, and very frustrating, counterpart to this, which is the case where you have the item on your cursor as you go through a portal (any of this will happen with staircases as well as portals, actually). In this case the item doesn't drop on the previous level, doesn't drop on the new level, and doesn't stay on your cursor, it simply vanishes into The Void.

There are several ways to dupe items, and the town portal thing is not the most common. One method was pretty common knowledge, and for a while it was more common to see someone in town duping items via the bug than it was to see someone using a trainer. It is really a shame that Blizzard didn't address these item handling issues, because not only did they allow people to duplicate items but they also resulted in the accidental destruction of a lot of valid items, including one of my first Dreamflanges, which was "duped" into a plain hunter's bow.

[Moldran]

By god mode, I was referring to the zero HP bug Nystul described. By duping, I was referring to the commonly known method Nystul also mentioned. It has nothing to do with Townportal. I hesitate to describe it in detail on a public forum (even though b.net is already screwed so much, it would probably not add much harm). If you want to know how it works, I can send you a PM.

[Fragbait]

Hi Moldran,

Nah, I was just curious.
You don't have to pm me, thanks anyway...

Greetings, Fragbait

[Jarulf]

"Furthermore, the game considers the character to be in a state of death for a small period of time before his/her hit points are "refunded" by the Mana Shield. During this period of death (fraction of a second) the character is actually rendered immune to attacks, and cannot be knocked backward as well."

- this is actually what you meant with god mode, isn't it? So god mode is another expression for mana shield bug.


Some people actually do refer to the bug listed above as a form of god mode.  That is, in my opinion, an absurd characterization.  But let's leave it at that, because I really, really don't want this to turn into a thread about that bug. 

I might remember wrong, but from a more technical point of view, it is not exactly what is happening. Basically the code that do attacks and deal damage has some lines that look something like:



if (hp<=0)
dodeath()
else
doother()

The check could be for hp below 1, don't remember. Anyway the dodeath() function will first check if you have Mana Shieled and if it is enough to keep you alive and if so, exit (skiping the doother(). The doother() function do stuff like knockback, put you into hit recovery and other things which is thus skiped. I don't think you end up immune to other attacks though but can recall wrong if there is further problems like the death flag (or if it is further life checks that doesn't trigger more attacks until you life is positive, it is still another effect from the knockback and such though) not being handled correctly.

Just wanted to point out this small tech nit. :)

[Nystul]

Anyway the dodeath() function will first check if you have Mana Shieled and if it is enough to keep you alive and if so, exit (skiping the doother(). The doother() function do stuff like knockback, put you into hit recovery and other things which is thus skiped. I don't think you end up immune to other attacks though but can recall wrong if there is further problems like the death flag (or if it is further life checks that doesn't trigger more attacks until you life is positive, it is still another effect from the knockback and such though) not being handled correctly.

I think it is just incorrect wording in the buglist entry. I don't remember anyone ever claiming that this bug would cause attacks to be skipped. It's been so many years, though, the details are a bit fuzzy...

They say long term memory is the first to go. Or was that short term memory? I forget.