To-Hit %

[Masq]

Heihoo.

My question is actually plain and simple. Over 95% To-Hit is a waste, right ? So if I already have around 100% to hit it's more useful to get items with other stats ? And to take in count that I'm only lvl 22 atm. (rogue) I'll be rising my Dex. a lot so this will give me even more To-Hit%. SO I should probably get rid of most of the items with to-hit% and use pre/suffixes that increase other stats ?

OR Does the > 100% To-Hit give you any advantages ?



Masq.

[Thecla]

Yes, you're absolutely right. Over 95% to hit is a waste, and you get no advantage from it. Once you have it, you don't need +to hit items at all. Rogues generally have high enough dex that to hit is not a concern for them (hell/hell at clvl 30 might be an exception, and in PvP vs high ac opponents +to hit is also important). What rogues do need in PvM is enough damage to stun monsters. For ranged attacks, this depends on your bow da (almost negligable at high lvs, but not at clvl 22), your clv, and your (str+dex), so adding to either or both stats is good -- +all items are the best ones for rogues.

Warriors are different -- their to hit is limited by their low max dex and they need in the end something like a king's sword (for the +to hit, not the +da). It's the main reason why young warriors do best by adding to dex first before they add to str.

Sorcerors, at least if they are the usual spell using kind, don't need to hit, but they do require high magic stats (which they have of course) since that's what determines the to hit of targeted spells like fireball.

[Moldran]

My question is actually plain and simple. Over 95% To-Hit is a waste, right ? So if I already have around 100% to hit it's more useful to get items with other stats ?

Yes, that is correct.

The To-Hit you see on your character screen is not your real To-Hit, though. Your real To-Hit is usually alot lower, because your opponent's AC is substracted.

But as a Rogue with a bow, you will always have maxed or almost maxed To-Hit. You don't need any +CTH items as long as you use a bow. You do have a use for additional To-Hit if you use a melee weapon.
Your To-Hit with targeted spells is another matter. That one is dependent on Magic, not on Dexterity, and not shown on the character screen at all.

To sum it up: As long as you use a bow, +CTH items are almost certainly wasted item slots.

[Masq]

Thanks a lot for your answers. But now as you mentioned melee.

To Hit %
on character screen:  50 + Dex/2 + ToHititems
melee:  50 + Dex/2 + ToHititems + clvl + bonus
arrow:  50 + Dex + ToHititems + clvl + bonus - distance·distance/2

is the Dex / 2[ why i need more To-Hit when melee ? Would be great if someone explained this aswell :) Asking about melee because I'm going to do some melee when I find a good vampire sword(mana)

Oh, and an extra question ^_^. I've got Massive Bow of Precision. 4-8 dam. 109% dam +20dex. And now I got The Needler 50%Chance to hit, Fast attack and unusual item damage(wtf does that mean ?) 1-3.
So which one should I use ? Needler gives me 152% chance to hit altogether, so it would be a bit of waste from that aspect :P ? But what's the deal with the fast attack and unusual item damage ?



Masq.

[Attika]

Depends; the way you have it worded, nope, you are incorrect.

To hit is determined as follows (from Jarulf's Guide: Battle -- Melee versus Monsters):

FTH = 50 + Dex/2 + ToHititems + clvl + bonusplayer - Acmonster - penaltyquarter damage

So, there is that -Acmonster you have to contend with.

A Bloodknight in Nightmare difficulty has 135 AC; in Hell diff it's 165.

So let's suppose your level 22 rogue has Dexterity 150 (some lups to Dex, some +dex items) and is meleeing a Nightmare Bloodknight with a vanilla bastard sword.

FTH = 50 + 150/2 + 0 ToHititems + 22 + 0 bonus - 135
= 50 + 75 + 22 - 135
= 147 - 135
= 12% final to hit.

Not so hot.

Better than 95% to hit is fine versus a creature with 0 AC, but even the Mage-types in Nightmare and Hell difficulty have _some_ AC.

Someone else in the days of the old DSF claimed the following maxxes (for warriors, I believe):
For clevel 30, anything over 210% to hit is a waste
For clevel 35, 205%
For clevel 40, 200%
For clevel 45, 195%
For clevel 50, 190%

I dunno if this reflects the warrior's hidden +20% to hit melee bonus. Someone who can do the math can nit it.

Hope this helps some.

Attika



FYI, the formulas for non-melee (bow in this case) attack and figuring to hit are:

if the effect is an arrow, calculate 50 + Dex + ToHititems + clvl + bonusplayer - distance·distance/2

if the effect is an arrow, subtract Acmonster

So again, monster Ac comes into play.

[Lord_Olf]

Hail,

a nice to-hit calculator can be found here:

http://www.dpsyche.com/cth.html

Fast Attack lets you attack faster, i.e. firing more arrows in a given time frame. Fast(er) attack is an important thing for keeping monsters in stunlock.

Unusual item damage basically means that an items does not do the same base damage as a regular item of that type.

As to the question why you need more ToHit in Melee: No idea. Accept it. The Warrior needs less ToHit in Melee, the Rogue needs less ToHit with Arrows. I guess it was done on purpose.

As for other questions, Jarulf's Guide is always worth a look:

http://members.core.com/~dfrease/JGFrame.html

Ah, and one more thing: I don't really like the "wtf"... Maybe take a little more time composing your posts. They're not as bad as some I've seen, but I think there is room for improvement.

Anyway, take care,

Lord_Olf

[Masq]

hehe :) Thanks again for the great answers and sorry for the "wtf" ;)

Anyways. I've read trough the Jarulf's Guide but it's loads of new information there and everything just doesn't stick in my mind. So I'm reading different parts of it again and again :)

But is the Fast fast enough to cover the low damage (and all the other minuses) ?



Masq.

[Nystul]

A few points come to mind here. The first is that your on-screen to hit% value is totally meaningless when using a bow. It's only useful for melee calculations, and even then it is only a starting point. But for bows, it is not even a starting point. You can't even say that a higher on-screen to hit% is better, because in some cases it will be worse (if you got a higher number by using a to hit prefix but lowered your dexterity in the meantime). You have to do the calculations yourself using the formula in Jarulf's Guide, or better yet, just try using your bow and see whether it is hitting everything or not.

The key to making sure your rogue always hits with a bow is to spend nearly all of your level up points on dexterity, adding to strength and magic only sparingly to meet item or book requirements and saving vitality for last. If you have been mostly adding to dexterity, you shouldn't need to worry about your chance to hit with a bow. With a melee weapon, the dexterity only counts at half-weight, so you may need something with a chance to hit prefix to hit consistently even as a rogue.

Fast attack is primarily a way to increase your damage output. But until you get to a higher level and have maxed stats, the actual damage of the bow itself is far more important. That is because your base damage is not yet high enough to do the job by itself. Not only do you need more damage to increase the damage/time ratio, but you need a certain amount of damage in order to stun a given monster. The Needler does very little to increase your raw damage, and is nearly the worst possible bow you could use at your level (other than cursed bows).

[Thecla]

As always I agree with you entirely, Nystul, but just to emphasize your points about rogues' stat distribution:

The key to making sure your rogue always hits with a bow is to spend nearly all of your level up points on dexterity, adding to strength and magic only sparingly to meet item or book requirements and saving vitality for last.

Dex is the primary and default stat for rogues to raise. Mag is the next -- unless you have a lot of +mag items (aka "reading glasses", like staves, which you may keep just to read books and for nothing else). Otherwise, you will need to raise mag to read books, and personally I hate to waste spell books or carry them around for ever, or wait for those +mag items, absent some kind of weird variant rules (for this reason, I always tend to end up adding more to magic than is generally recommended by any rogue guide). Str is after mag, but I suggest adding str only as needed to equip the bows you find (not -- especially -- armor or any other items). As for vit, it's a dirty rotten stat to which you shouldn't add a single lvl up point until you've maxed everything else, and even then you should think twice about it.

Rogues do fine holding back lvl-up points to allocate depending on what you find.

And, as for the needler, it may be nearly the worst possible bow at lower lvls, but I do think it holds a soft spot in the heart of any true rogue.

[Rhydderch Hael]

Heihoo.

My question is actually plain and simple. Over 95% To-Hit is a waste, right ? ... OR Does the > 100% To-Hit give you any advantages ?

You have the overall philosophy on matter a bit wrong.

ToHit% is essentially the measure of your armor-piercing ability against a target. Your target has an Armor Class rating. Subtract that AC number against your ToHit% to help determine your true actual chances to hit the target (in melee).

The higher the AC your target has, the bigger the chunk of your ToHit% gets subtracted away in the calculation.

So, getting the ToHit% above 100 is a good idea as you encounter targets with better AC. You do that by items with ToHit% boosters, and/or raising Dexterity

[Malakar]

Well, you might want to add some level up point to vit if you want to max out all of your stats quicker, since it's a lot easier to buy stat elixers from Adria than find them in the dungeon and vit elixers cannot be bought.

[Thecla]

Well, you might want to add some level up point to vit if you want to max out all of your stats quicker, since it's a lot easier to buy stat elixers from Adria than find them in the dungeon and vit elixers cannot be bought.

Well, this would be a very reasonable argument if vit meant diddlysquat. As it is (with the possibly arguable exception of warriors) they could have left vit out of Diablo all together and replaced the +vit button with another one that said "throw away your lvl up points here".

[Malakar]

Lol, true, but some players feel the need to have all stats maxed, so that ALL are gold, and one doesn't stick out. =P