Player stat questions

[Jarulf]

Just wondering, with the new system of geting stat increases automatically, do anyone know, how the stats increase? Is the increase the same for different races (but same class)? Will differences show at higher levels? Other noticable things?

Since starting stats vary, it might still matter some. On the other hand, if warriors at level 30 have 48 or 50 (or whatever) strength, it hardly matter although a 2 point difference at level 5 might be more important.

[JustAGuy]

I've noticed, that early on for Paladin, he is much weaker than in previous pushes. Weaker to the point where he can barely take one enemy of equal level on. Later on, he is still weaker (hit point wise) than he would be at an equivalent level in earlier pushes, but it's not as bad since he is more of an offensive threat, if played correctly.

I don't know by how much stats increase, since I haven't been paying attention... Personally, I liked being able to increase my own stats as I see fit; my previous Paladins were hit point beats, making them quite tankable. The only problem was my ability to draw aggro. Now, it's the reverse, I can draw aggro like it's going out of style, and I have less hit points to absorb the forthcoming beating.

I would imagine that at higher levels, my Paladin will have a devastating offense, but still be lacking in defense.

On a side note, I grouped with three other Paladins yesterday, and we absolutely demolished everything. The changes from buffs to auras really helps Paladin party play, and the fact that crusader strike stacks up quickly makes everyone's Holy Strike that much more effective.

EDIT: Forgot one tidbit.

[Bolty]

Just to chime in on Paladin damage - right now, Paladins can outdamage Mages. This will be fixed in the future.

Remember, Blizzard wants the Warrior class to be the uber-tank. Paladins should not compare to them in hit points. They have enough other abilities (auras, healing) to make up for that difference.

-Bolty

[TaiDaishar]

Just to chime in on Paladin damage - right now, Paladins can outdamage Mages.  This will be fixed in the future.

Puny paladins outdamage those who manipulate the secrets of the universe? Man... this isn't right!

[Cryptic]

Well, we already know from Diablo II how Blizzard envisions the Paladin: A hybrid fighter-mage, who can get swarmed solo unless specifically built for crowd control, whose power is magnified when in a group. They'll probably keep going in that direction to differentiate them from the Warrior.

To (not) answer your original question, Jarulf, I've seen no detailed analyses. The only way to know would be for Beta players to write down their stat increases for every level, mention their class and race, and get together in a thread like this one. I *heard* that increases currently varied by class and not by race, but I can't jump in and confirm that.

[Cryptic]

Did some more research, but with spotty results.

Most players are reporting having their stats maxed by level 30?

I’m assuming the following is still correct:

Druid
Agility: Tertiary
Intelligence: Secondary
Spirit: Secondary
Stamina: Secondary
Strength: Secondary

Mage
Intelligence: Primary
(no more information)

Priest
(no information)

Rogue
Agility: Primary
Intelligence: Tertiary
Spirit: Secondary
Stamina: Secondary
Strength: Secondary

Shaman
Agility: Tertiary
Intelligence: Secondary
Spirit: Secondary
Stamina: Secondary
Strength: Secondary

Warlock
Intelligence: Primary
(no more information)

Warrior
Strength: Primary
(no more information)

And this information was valid as of March 29th, not sure if it’s changed:

Starting Stats for each combo race/class available at the moment

Human warrior
23 Strength
21 Agility
22 Stamina
21 Intellect
22 Spirit

Human rogue
21 Strength
23 Agility
22 Stamina
21 Intellect
22 Spirit

Human mage
21 Strength
21 Agility
22 Stamina
23 Intellect
22 Spirit

Human paladin
23 Strength
21 Agility
22 Stamina
21 Intellect
22 Spirit

Human warlock
21 Strength
21 Agility
22 Stamina
23 Intellect
22 Spirit

Human priest
21 Strength
21 Agility
22 Stamina
23 Intellect
22 Spirit

Dwarf warrior
24 Strength
19 Agility
23 Stamina
20 Intellect
23Spirit

Dwarf priest
22 Strength
19 Agility
23 Stamina
22 Intellect
23 Spirit

Dwarf paladin
24 Strength
19 Agility
23 Stamina
20 Intellect
23 Spirit

Dwarf mage
22 Strength
19 Agility
23 Stamina
22 Intellect
23 Spirit

Dwarf rogue
22 Strength
21 Agility
23 Stamina
20 Intellect
23 Spirit

Night Elf warrior
22 Strength
22 Agility
21 Stamina
23 Intellect
21 Spirit

Night Elf rogue
20 Strength
24 Agility
21 Stamina
23 Intellect
21 Spirit

Night Elf priest
20 Strength
22 Agility
21 Stamina
25 Intellect
21 Spirit

Gnome warrior
22 Strength
22 Agility
21 Stamina
22 Intellect
22 Spirit

Gnome mage
20 Strength
22 Agility
21 Stamina
24 Intellect
22 Spirit

Gnome rogue
20 Strength
24 Agility
21 Stamina
22 Intellect
22 Spirit

Gnome warlock
20 Strength
22 Agility
21 Stamina
24 Intellect
22 Spirit

[--Pete]

Hi,

I don't know if these are for this push or the last, or if it even changed with the push. I suspect the lest push, since he's only been gathering data for a couple of days this push. You can get the other classes just by clicking on the class name on the left, then clicking on "stats" if the skills come up.

From those tables, it looks like there is a slight difference in starting stats by race for a given class, but the amounts increased by level is the same for all races. So, the point or two of initial difference becomes pretty insignificant at higher levels.

--Pete

[Jarulf]

Last push all classes of a race started with the same stats if I can recall correctly. Or perhaps I did not check enough to see the differences.

[Fragbait]

Hi Cryptic,

Could you or someone else please clarify the difference in meaning of the words:

- mage / magician (practices the original and archaic form of magic ?)

- sorcerer (practices a newer, more of a trick-oriented sort of magic ?)

- wizard (don't know. An umbrella term for both ?)

- warlock (the witch amongst the wizards. Practices a darker form of magic, herbage magic ?)

- enchanter (don't know. Like he can enchant things, make animals speak and such ?)

- witchmaster (probably only the title of a bad horror flic ?)

- shaman (practices a form of natural magic. Is 'one' with the environment, could probably act on animals ?)

- necromancer (practices the darkest form of magic. Occupies himself with the study of death and its borders ?)


Thanks in advance. Sorry for thread hijacking here.


Greetings, Fragbait

[Nystul]

There is a lot of overlap between these terms, and they get applied differently in different literature, games, etc. So I'm not sure you can get definitive distinctions between all of them. But here is my take on a few:

Mage/magician - I would say these are both fairly generic terms for people who are adept users of magic. They are not much different to me in connotation from wizard. These terms usually reflect the practice of an ancient art, rather than a religious power. "Magician" is also the common term for illusionist entertainers in real life.

Sorcerer - Usually has a darker, more evil connotation than mage/magician/wizard. It is sometimes associated with witchcraft, but not always. In D&D, there is a distinction between a sorcerer and wizard in how they gain and use their powers. Here is how it is described in the Neverwinter Nights manual: "Sorcerers are arcane spellcasters who manipulate magic energy with imagination and talent rather than studious discipline. They have no books, no mentors, no theories - just raw power that they direct at will."

Wizard - Probably a more powerful connotation than mage or magician. Besides casting arcane magic, wizards generally seem to be extremely intelligent, very focused on studying and gaining knowledge (not only about magic but often other things as well). In D&D, they memorize their spells out of a spellbook.

Warlock - Usually the equivalent of a male witch. That's a bit of a loaded answer, since the concept of "witch" can mean a lot of different things. This tends to be a dark, usually evil connotation with religious and/or demonic influence involved.

Enchanter - Basically two forms of magic are considered enchantment: charming/controlling other living beings, or imbuing things (living or non-living) with magical properties.

Witchmaster - Uhhhh.... sounds like a someone who has mastered witchcraft, I guess.

Shaman - Basically, a priest for certain types of religions (both real and fantasy). Their powers are spiritual rather than magical. Usually they are portrayed as drawing from the spirits of the plants/animals/elements of nature.

Necromancer - Usually, a wizard who delves deep into the mysteries of life and death. This really freaks people out, and a necromancer isn't likely to have many friends. Dr. Frankenstein comes to mind.

[Cryptic]

Sure Fragbait, etymology is one of my hobbies :)

Nystul and his magical aura have a nice shared grasp on the meanings of these terms in modern fantasy. Here’s some of the earlier meanings, which can be quite different.

Mage: Comes from the Latin, Magus. In modern gaming parlance, it’s a generic spellcaster whose powers are more arcane than divine. In reality, the word denotes a member of a patriarchal priestly class of the Near East. Implies authority, as the Romans had many offices that were known as “magister” (mostly political or military, such as the Magister Equitum, master of horses/cavalry).

Sorcerer: Latin Sortiarius. A diviner who reads the future through throwing lots, or tesserae (knucklebones).

Wizard: Early English, wise man. It denotes a counselor or elder just as often as it does a user of magic. I think Tolkien, with his love of language, was very aware of this.

Warlock: Practitioner of the dark arts. One who abandons faith and uses the powers of Lucifer; heretic.

Enchanter: From the French, through the old Latin, where it was Incantarius (one who chants magic spells). Someone who beguiles through spoken magic.

Witchmaster: Modern.

Shaman: This one can be argued until the sun goes down; I’m not going to get into the reasons why. Basically, it’s a magician whose power comes from divine sources, not gods, but the earth and the beasts.

Necromancer: Necro = death, -mancer = practitioner of magic. Interestingly, the –mancer comes from the Greek Mantis, a solemn channeler of divine magic through meditation. Of course the praying mantis gets its name the same way. There’s a fun theory that since epilepsy was considered to be sacred in ancient Greece, that the twisted limbs of those in a seizure may have something to do with this posture being considered “magical.”

[--Pete]

Hi,

Last push, I started a bunch of different race/class combos to see what the starting stats were. I know it was last push, because I barely got in the push before. They were definitely not all the same. These were the only ones I actually recoded before finding Thott's database and giving up on trying to collect my own data:

Code:

Race       Class   Agility   Intell.   Spirit   Stamina   Strength
Dwarf     Warrior     19        20        23        23        24
Dwarf     Rogue       21        20        23        23        22
Gnome     Warrior     22        22        22        21        22
Gnome     Rogue       24        22        22        21        20
Human     Warrior     21        21        22        22        23
Human     Rogue       23        21        22        22        21
N. Elf    Warrior     22        23        21        21        22
N. Elf    Rogue       24        23        21        21        20
Orc       Warrior     20        20        23        22        24
Orc       Rogue       22        20        22        22        22
Tauren    Warrior     19        20        22        23        25
Troll     Warrior     20        20        24        22        23
Troll     Rogue       22        20        24        22        21
Undead    Warrior     19        21        24        23        22
Undead    Rogue       21        21        24        23        20

It looks like the main changes here are in strength and agility, the two prime attributes of the warrior and the rogue. The difference for the Orc in Spirit might just have been a transcription error (I took the data by hand, not being as clever as Thott :) )

OK, I thought the "code" keyword meant "put it in like I formatted it". Is there a better way? Because it wasn't that ugly when I posted it. OK, 2nd edit -- it didn't like tabs, so I put in spaces. But, since the input windoW is proportional I had to do it twice, the second time in notepad. And it still didn't come out right :)

--Pete

[Ruvanal]

OK, I thought the "code" keyword meant "put it in like I formatted it".  Is there a better way?  Because it wasn't that ugly when I posted it.  OK, 2nd edit -- it didn't like tabs, so I put in spaces.  But, since the input windoW is proportional I had to do it twice, the second time in notepad.  And it still didn't come out right :)

--Pete

Try the tool at this link.
http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/in...showtopic=25404

It was made for use on the AB forums with its black background, so it will leave underscore marks if used here. But at least they will line up nicely.

[Cryptic]

That data looks good, because if you total all of the attributes, you discover that the designers intend each race and class combination to have the same initial attribute sum:

Dwarf Rogue 109
Dwarf Warrior 109
Gnome Rogue 109
Gnome Warrior 109
Human Rogue 109
Human Warrior 109
Night Elf Rogue 109
Night Elf Warrior 109
Orc Rogue 108?
Orc Warrior 109
Tauren Warrior 109
Troll Rogue 109
Troll Warrior 109
Undead Rogue 109
Undead Warrior 109

Perhaps a transcription error with the Orc Rogue?

The only thing that bothers me about this is that this strongly implies that they feel that each race’s unique abilities (plains running, etc.) will be equal. I don’t think that’s going to be the case, at least to begin with.

[--Pete]

Hi,

The only thing that bothers me about this is that this strongly implies that they feel that each race’s unique abilities (plains running, etc.) will be equal. I don’t think that’s going to be the case, at least to begin with.

I suspect that characteristics that do not effect PvP can be somewhat different, but anything that does will have to be balanced for PvP. Add the PvE balance also needed and you'll have forty five combinations of class and race that will all be close to the same. ;)

--Pete

[Fragbait]

Replying to me rather than replying to each or only one of you. Thank you both nevertheless!

[LavCat]

Has anyone yet documented what the different player stats actually do? The WoW site gives very basic information:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/basics...haracters.shtml

Last night Tribade, my all too human level twenty paladin, met a traveling salesperson who sold her three pair of leather bracers (no quantity discount). All had higher armor than the mail that she was wearing. In addition one had plus 1 to agility, one had plus 1 to strength, one had plus one to intellect. She cannot make up her mind -- which leads me to suspect she need more intellect.

Can anyone help her with advice?

She also explored Stranglethorn last night and found there are very large beasts who live there.


Edit: Found a picture of one of the ones who wanted to play with her:

http://www.blizzard.com/wow/screenshot.asp...eIndex=8&Set=12