WC3: FT Communities...

[Artega]

I should kick myself. I had the perfect replay outlining how to make an immortal army in a team game.

Basically, it involves Tauren and Spirit Walkers. Having a TC goes along with the theme, but if you're going to hard-tech (i.e., no starting army), you might want an FS or BM for hero harass.



I started by doing my initial Orcish build-order: Rax, Altar, and a Burrow, followed by two Peons (raising my total food to 7/10), and then a Grunt after the Rax finished. A few seconds later, the Altar and Burrow finish, and I summon a TC and second Grunt. I fill out my food with Peons (starting a second Burrow at about 18/20 or 19/20), and build a second Burrow. While that's building, I also build a Voodoo Lounge and snag a Healing Salve, Lesser Clarity Potion, and Scroll of Speed, and then run off to do some light creeping.

The second burrow finishes, I start another, build a War Mill, and make another two Grunts. raising my total to five. I round out the supply with Peons, and then tech to a Stronghold when I have enough money. By this point, our enemies (who were all NE), happened to stop by my NE ally's base, and I TP in (along with my UD ally, who went DK&Fiends), and we beat them back. The UD ally runs off after we beat them, while my NE buddy and I run off to go counter. Apparently our UD ally didn't want to counter, because we went in alone and got beaten pretty badly (I lost a Grunt and my ally lost two hunts), though I managed to take down a Moon Well (and get a lot of money; thanks, Pillage!), and my ally managed to slay five or six Wisps harvesting lumber.

During this time, the upgrade to Stronghold completes, so I run back to my town and pick up a Healing Potion, TP, and a Healing Salve (for my wounded Grunts.) I also build a Spirit Lodge, and then tech to a Fortress. While this is happening, I expand to a gold mine, build some more burrows (raising my food to something like 43/70), research Spirit Walker Adept training (mmm... Disenchantment...), and research some upgrades for my melee units (Thorium weapons and Steel armor.) I also train three Spirit Walkers.

All is silent for a time, allowing my allies and I to research upgrades (UD gets web and Level 2 weapons and armor for his fiends, and brings in a Lich) and tech to better units (NE makes his archers into Riders, brings in a few Mountain Giants, and upgrades his Huntresses.) My upgrade to Fortress completes, and I promptly build a Tauren Totem, research Spirit Walker Master training, and continue to research upgrades. I also build the last three burrows I'll need (at my expansion), bringing me to 100 food. After the Totem completes, I research Pulverize, and queue up three Tauren, as well as build five more Spirit Walkers.

Because I had eight Spirit Walkers, Ancestral Spirit, an army comprised solely of Tauren (even the hero was a Tauren! Go Tauren!), and a virtually unlimited supply of mana (Walkers get 600 mana apiece with Master training), I pretty much had an immortal army. If a Tauren died, I'd use Ancestral Spirit to revive him. If they managed to kill a Spirit Walker when he was in Corporeal form, I'd revive him with Ancestral Spirit. If they killed my Tauren Chieftain, he'd revive himself with Reincarnation (or that lovely Ankh of Reincarnation I found.)

Having an immortal army is fun ^_^

[Artega]

I found a decent person to play a few AT games with, and I posted the best replay out of the three games to BattleReports. You can find it here.

[Artega]

I saved a replay of a particularly good game where I had a truly immortal army, and the enemy was smart enough to catch on to the fact that the Spirit Walkers (not the Tauren) were the greatest threat, so it also showcases some good use of the other Spirit Walker spells, as well. I don't have time to upload it to BattleReports, but I did watch the replay and made some notes of my build order. Our enemies were kinda newbish, and a little on the slow side, so you might consider the build order I had to be for teching/creeping/massing enemies, and not rushing enemies.

• Send three of your first five peons to gold, and have the other two construct a Barracks and an Altar.
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• Promptly churn out a sixth peon, and have him build a Burrow (preferably near your gold mine.)
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• Send your seventh (and all subsequent) Peon to the nearest forest, and have him harvest lumber.
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• When your Barracks and Altar finish, build a Grunt (bringing you to 10/10 food), and divide the two peons between gold and lumber (4 on gold, 2 on lumber.)
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• Send the Peon building the Burrow to gold, to fill out that mine.
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• Use the new food to build another Grunt, a Tauren Chieftain, and Peons to fill out. Go creeping if there are nearby green camps, and have a Peon build a second Burrow.
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• While your second Burrow is being built, you should also build a Voodoo Lounge (use the Healing Salves to heal wounded Grunts) and a War Mill.
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• After your second Burrow finishes, make Grunts and Peons as you see fit, and upgrade to a Stronghold. You should have at least five Peons on each resource, and preferably more on lumber. Depending on number and type of enemies, you may want more Grunts and less Peons.
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• Use the Stronghold upgrade-time to upgrade your melee weaponry and/or armor. Build another Burrow.
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• As the Stronghold finishes, promptly build a Spirit Lodge, and upgrade to a Fortress as soon as you have the resources for it.
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• While the Stronghold is upgrading to a Fortress, you should research Adept Training for your Spirit Walkers, futher upgrade your melee weapons and armor, build another Burrow or two (you should be at around 35/50 when the Fortress completes), and churn out a couple of Spirit Walkers.
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• If the map (and/or opponents) permits, expand as soon as you can. You'll need to extra income to fuel the expensive Tauren, and the extra ten food doesn't hurt.
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• As soon as your Fortress finishes, build a Tauren Totem, and research Master Training for your Spirit Walkers.
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• Once the Totem is finished, build a Tauren or two (or more, if your enemy is attacking often), and then research Pulverize. The two or three Spirit Walkers you built during your Stronghold phase should be close to 400 or more Mana by this point.<>
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  Hopefully your Tauren Chieftain was able to reach Level 6 (and Reincarnation) through creeping or killing during your buildup phase. Keep in mind that you're very vulnerable during this buildup phase, so you might want to forsake a few upgrades and build some Watch Towers instead. Have your allies cover you. Have a Human player plant an Arcane Tower in your town to dissuade Heroes from getting too close.
  
  When in combat, keep your fragile Walkers away from magic-wielding enemies. If you see Chimaerae or other powerful magic-wielding monsters, you would be well-advised to keep your distance.
  
  Don't underestimate Spirit Link. Spirit Link halves the damage the target creature takes, and splits the other half among four other friendly creatures (who take 12.5%.) This can make the already hard-to-stop Tauren unstoppable, and when you combine that with the ability to raise them from the dead at full HP, your army truly is immortal. Depending on how aggressive the enemies are, you'll need anywhere from four to eight Spirit Walkers to make this work well. Consider getting more if there are lots of third-tier melee units on the field (Abominations, other Tauren, and Mountain Giants can be problematic; Knights, you can practically ignore.) You'll need at least four Tauren (more if you don't have Level 2 upgrades by time you start fighting), as well.
  
  Keep in mind that Ancestral Spirit raises ALL friendly Tauren, and that Spirit Walkers are Tauren, too. If the enemy kills a Spirit Walker (or three), raise them! Spirit Walkers are what keep your army alive, so be damned careful with them.
  
  On another note, you can annoy the piss out of your enemies with Ethereal-form Spirit Walkers. Clump them near an enemy Town Center, and have them blockade Town-Portalling enemies, keeping them from attacking your Tauren and other friendly units. Don't do this if the enemy is using ranged attackers.
  
  Disenchantment is one of the best debuffing spells in the game, affecting a fairly large area, and dealing a significant 250 damage to enemy summoned units. Use it on enemy skeletons, water elementals, and even on summoned creeps, like Spirit Pigs. Keep in mind that it removes buffs from every unit in the area of effect, friendly as well as unfriendly.
  
  Necromancers, friendly or not, are your worst enemies. You can't raise your Tauren if they're being used as Skeleton fodder, and a Tauren is a lot better than a Skeleton and Skeletal Mage. Make sure friendly Undead players don't field Necromancers (unless they want to use Cripple), and target enemy Necromancers first whenever possible. Banshees with Master Training can Possess your Tauren, and this is also a bad thing. Undead is the best race to counter this strategy with.

[Swiss Mercenary]

That makes me wish that Spellbreakers could steal reincarnate. B)

[Sir_Die_alot]

One of my frequent team mates just pointed out we are ranked 676th in 3v3 ladder. :P

http://www.battle.net/war3/ladder/w3xp-pla...ame=Thunderbird

[Archon_Wing]

I have ordered a copy of the battle chest on Amazon.com In a few days I will be Archon_Wing@Lorderon although I'd be willing to play on any gateway- I could care less about stats. :)

[Jester]

Occasionally, I'm back playing WC:FT. My alias is OrkishMandolin on the lordaeron server.

If anyone wants a game, team, whatever, give me a msg.

Jester

[Guest]

edited

[Archon_Wing]

The system is broken. You'd expect new players to be eventually matched up with newer players, but no. :P It does a disservice to everyone, really.

[Swiss Mercenary]

It wasn't broken before the last patch... Remind me again, who revealed the locations of the hidden stashes of crack to Blizzard?

[Archon_Wing]

nyway, I've been playing WC3: FT lately, and one thing that came to my mind is the lack of quality players around the general B.net community.

Wow, now that's an understatement. :) This makes the D2 community seem like a paradise. I'll have to add some people here if I should continiue playing. And of course, with the dumb matchmaking system barring any chance of me learning much because I can't play any other new players, I'd like to enlist the help of the more patient folk here.

[Jester]

"And of course, with the dumb matchmaking system barring any chance of me learning much because I can't play any other new players, I'd like to enlist the help of the more patient folk here."

I could see how that would be a huge problem. My experience with the matchmaking system has actually been really positive. I've played probably 15 games in a row without playing anyone so much better or worse than me that it wasn't a contest, which was certainly a common occurence with the old system.

But, I'm more a mid-level player than a new player, and I can see how the matchmaker wouldn't help much at all.

If you want to play, get some tips, whatever, I'm OrkishMandolin on USWest (Lordaeron).

Jester

[Sir_Die_alot]

My experiences haven't been too negative either. The old way that was based just off level didn't take into account the 2 steps forward 1 step back meathod of leveling. I've played some games where we were sure we would lose due to levels but ended up with very one sided victories.

[Jester]

What I've been most amazed by is that I (ranging from level 7 to 11) have been paired off with people ranging from level 1 to 27, and none of them have been complete duds. Sure, a couple of the high-twenties matchups have been losses, and a couple of the 1s weren't quite as challenging as they could have been. But there were no newb-stomps, and nobody has completely massacred me, even if they won convincingly.

So, somehow, they've got a system that more closely pairs your *skill* with someone, rather than your *level*. I was so sick of facing down 12-0 "level 7s" who destroyed everything in their path, as well as 56-167 "level 18s" who could be blown over with a strong breeze.

But the system is apparently somewhat borked for the super-low and super-high skill brackets; pairing a 68-0 ladder player with a 5-0 lucky mid-level player is pretty awful. I can also see how it would be somewhat demoralizing to have to be completely slaughtered a dozen games in a row before the AMM clues in to the fact that you're pretty new to the game.

Jester

[Sir_Die_alot]

The lack minimum game number is to prevent "smurfs" or people who would create new accounts just to play and crush new players. This was a problem with the original ladder system and the main reason it was changed. I would rather they kept track of games by cd key to prevent that though. <_<

[Artega]

It's official. Orcs simply can't do crap in FFA games. Every other race has either good air units (Night Elf, Undead), or has game-breaking anti-air capability (Human.) Orcs have neither. Troll Berserkers don't live long enough to kill superunits like Chimaera and Frost Wyrms, Wind Riders are owned by pretty much anything, using Ensnare is impossible with 20+ air units on-screen, and Batriders lack the HP necessary to get close enough to detonate. It's easy to totally own the ground, but there's just no way you can beat air units. Maybe Blizzard should have helped the orcs instead of nerf them in v1.16. Makes me wish I could have some of their secret stash of crack.

[Archon_Wing]

I'd be willing to teach you the tricks of the trade; besides, they say that you eventually reach a point where the only way to learn more is by teaching another ^_^

Well, I hope you remember saying this. :lol:

[Artega]

Of course :)

I'm great with Orcs in team games, and pretty good in 1v1's, but since FFAs almost always end up with tier-three vs. tier-three, I'm having issues with dealing with other races' air units. I guess I should use UD for FFAs and Orc for everything else :)

[Archon_Wing]

I'm not too familiar with Wc3, but ffa's in most games (and almost everything) are typicaly imbalanced because of random BS. Starting locations and the player's races often mix things up. In the majority of situations someone will always get screwed by being attacked more. Even if one were to be as impartial as possible there will always be uneven fighting on fronts. What happens is that people become more passive. The first person to get aggressive typicaly makes a lot of enemies. Thus, you always have this jerk who tries to stay out of the action... while getting to tier 3 :lol:

I've also heard from my more experienced friends that Orc's do have crap anti-air. :( It would seem Wc3 doesn't seem to balance, from what I read, Undead tends to dominate at higher levels of play...

I guess we could play those arranged team games, if you don't mind having 20-30 losses on your record. B) :blink:

(We could also play Starcraft if I start giving you heart attacks :D)

[Jester]

"I've also heard from my more experienced friends that Orc's do have crap anti-air."

Orc anti-air is pretty much geared to 1 vs. 1. Raiders, batriders, wyverns and headhunters are all perfectly acceptable counters to air, provided you have the ability to time them right. Given a "mass buildup to tier 3" situation, like an FFA, Orc loses out big time. Wyverns, raiders and headhunters can't compete, and batriders will win one combat, but won't be around for the next. Orc is a timing race, whereas FFAs are not really timing games, unless your name is Bei and your APM is 200.

However, I've seen some orc players pull out mighty fine FFA victories. The game just isn't as balanced for FFA as for other game types.

"Undead tends to dominate at higher levels of play..."

That used to be true, but not so much anymore. It's a fairly reasonable balance at the high levels, with possibly an orc/undead advantage in solo, and a orc/night elf advantage in team. But the map can change all that. Lost Temple still favours human over other races, whereas Plunder Isle is much more an orc map.

I think the game is fairly well balanced. Skill, rather than race choice, wins games, even at the highest levels of play.

"Thus, you always have this jerk who tries to stay out of the action... while getting to tier 3"

The very essence of FFA is knowing when to piss someone off, and when to lie low and wait. It may be a good idea to sit back some of the time, but if you sit back too long, the dude with the level 9 Mountain King is going to walk all over your level 2 heroes. It's not jerkiness, it's strategy. :)

Jester