I'm just worried

[apandapion]

I'm worried that allowing no changing of talents will discourage experimentation and encourage lots of identical mages. Then again, it's things like that which keep me coming here and reading about the eldritch secrets and black magic.

[bschultz]

then its a good thing they will be implementing a way for us to unlearn tallents by speaking to certin NPC's in every major city. though from what blizzard has said it will be for the beta ONLY.

[Saxywoo]

I personally am not that worried about the learning/unlearning of talents. If you can't "unlearn" talents, you might have hundreds of essentially the same character in various stages of development running around. That, IMO, would be the perfect way to make a game boring.

However, after a while, things might progress they way they did when the original Diablo was still the King of All Games. And that was people trying to take a game that everyone had played to a certain degree playable and interesting again. You had TONs of variants within just 3 classes. Do you remember:

The Tank Mage (High AC, ~ lvl 15 spells)
The Artillery Mage (Lower AC ~ lvl 20 spells)
The Bowazon (Rogue)
The Warrior Rogue (High AC, Sword/Shield combo)
The SNOBs (Unique Item Only Characters)
The Naked Mages (no items at all)
The Ninja (Only Light-radius reducing items)
The Beyond Naked (only cursed items)
The Paladin (only light-radius increasing items)

And there were more that existed!

No matter what, the game will eventually enforce diversity, solely on the basis that not everyone wants to be the same as everyone else. Heck, playing styles vary just as much as there are people playing the game. Though some of the basic concepts are the same, but ultimately, there is never going to be two players that are exactly alike.

In Diablo II, I had a Druid that Bolty and I planned out. I wanted to have Hurricane act as a shield for me, and it did it. To those of you that remember our Baal runs, but there wasn't very many that could stand up to us. It got to be disgustingly easy. But I had to play a way that just simply wasn't me. I liked going toe to toe with anything that came my way. But I had to stand back, and take a more "artillery" role. But even still D2 got to the point where there were variants withing each class.

It's like there's just a natural progression of a Blizzard game of this type.

Right now in WoW, my playing style is more of a borderline support role if I'm in a group with a Warrior, but I'm the tank when I'm with a casting class.

I don't think that the talent system should be unlearnable. You made your choice, adapt how you play. If you can't, party with someone that can work around your playing style. And if nobody will party with you, either you need to change the way that you play, or go solo. But either way you choose, you'll know better next time.

SaxyCorp

[--Pete]

Hi,

I agree with that in the release. But, as I pointed out elsewhere, there are two good reasons for letting talents be swapped around in the beta. First is the impermanence of what the talents do. As some are nerfed, others become more desirable. It is unfair to penalize someone for choices made when the outcome of the choice is changed after the fact. Second is that the beta period is simply too short for people to test all possible combinations of talents at all possible levels. There just isn't enough time to build that many high level characters.

I think the "for beta only" solution is fine. I'd rather just have a button on the talents pane that just resets all allocated points to zero and puts them all back into the pool. But hunting down yet another NPC in the godawful lagged to hell cities will probably still be workable.

--Pete

[Cryptic]

I think they should leave talent resets in the game - the process of removing points could have a price in gold attached. It could be exorbitant, but the opportunity should exist.

The problem is that in games of this nature, it takes longer to level than in a Diablo-type game. Also, updates and rules changes are more frequent. So when you create a character and invest talent points, you're making a long-term gamble with the limited information made available to you. Down the road, completely beyond your control, you could get hosed.

[Saxywoo]

Hey Pete...

I just have a problem with someone thinking... "well, this talent sucks. I'm going to unlearn it."

Now granted, I haven't done much looking into the talent system to see how it works, but something might be absolutely useless at first, and then get better.

Someone, I'm not sure if it was you, had said that puting your talent points into something is a gamble, especially since the rules and other things change with no warning. But what's to say that if some talent gets nerf-ed in one "patch," it might not get totally beef-ed in the next?

I personally think that there is going to be a lot more time before the Beta ends, which would give people plenty of time to get thier characters to a higher level. There are just simply too many things that Blizzard needs to work on/iron out before the game goes live. Otherwise, WoW, risks the potential of being a MMORPG version of "Ishtar" (Woody Allen, Dustin Hoffman movie from the 80's - big box office flop).

You can have an impressive game engine, impressive graphics, new things that haven't been tried before or implemented well in other MMORPGs, but if there are things that make the game suck, then the game sucks any way that you look at it. Just with the frequency that the servers crash on us is indicitive that they are still needing to do a lot with the infrastructure behind the game. Let alone broken quests, bugged monsters that chase you all the way across the Loch in Loch Modan...

I still say that they leave the talents the way that you set them, so it forces you to investigate whatever combination that you choose. It makes you think about choosing wisely and taking into consideration your style of gameplay. Besides, what's to say that a talent might get wiped, like Sleep was for the Mage. I say leave them as they are placed, and possibly reset them when another "patch" comes out....or at least give the option....once a patch.

[MongoJerry]

I'd rather just have a button on the talents pane that just resets all allocated points to zero and puts them all back into the pool.  But hunting down yet another NPC in the godawful lagged to hell cities will probably still be workable.

I think Blizzard's solution is a good one. The problem with having a button on the talent pane to reset talents is that then people would switch their talents around based on individual fights. Going to fight a boss that's immune to fire? No problem, switch all those fire talents into cold talents, etc. Making people only be able to switch talents in cities mitigates this to some degree in that the person is stuck with their choices for the entire time they are away from the city.

[DeeBye]

I think Blizzard's solution is a good one.  The problem with having a button on the talent pane to reset talents is that then people would switch their talents around based on individual fights.

Or they could go the Hearthstone route and put an insanely long timer on resetting points.

[DeeBye]

Oh hey nothing to see here.

[TheDragoon]

Nothing here either. Nope, I'm not covering up for DeeBye this time! :)

[--Pete]

Hi,

The problem with having a button on the talent pane to reset talents is that then people would switch their talents around based on individual fights.

Good. Then the best combinations for individual types of encounters can be rapidly figured out. And when things get changed then the effects of the changes can be seen at once. When the retail game comes out and we get to PLAY it instead of TESTING it, then we'll know (as will everybody who reads strategy guides) what the trade offs are. At least until the nerfs start rolling out (which I figure is the day after the game ships).

I think the mistake a lot of people (including you) are making is that you're thinking in terms of playing, not testing. Testing involves a lot of different trials of a lot of different combinations. The more combinations are tested, the faster the best builds can be determined, the better the developers can do their job of balancing things out. It is a lot better for one person to be able to try thirty builds in one day than to have to spend a month to test one. Ideally, in testing, you should be able to build a character at the log in screen of any class, race, level, with any combination of stats and any gear (from what is possible). You object, saying, "Then people would just build uber characters"? My answer, "the players will, the testers will not." And right now, testing is the objective. Or so it seems to me.

But, hey. Just my opinion looking at it from the "I want to learn everything that's knowable" about this game. And from the "I want them to put out the best damned game ever."

--Pete

[Ruvanal]

Pete,

You are making the assumption that we are the testers. We are actually the test subjects to see what will be tolerated in the game and what causes to many trip-ups for the mice...err, players.

[--Pete]

Shhhh! That's supposed to be a secret. ;)

[Saxywoo]

Heya Pete...

Good. Then the best combinations for individual types of encounters can be rapidly figured out. And when things get changed then the effects of the changes can be seen at once.

I think that there is also a disadvantage to this. It's kind of like a double edged sword. You have people that want to change their talents so they know what is a good combination and what isn't. If in testing, we find out what is the best talent disbursments, everyone is going to work off of that "template" in the game from the outset. I really doubt that Blizzard would build the talent system, and then change it right when the game comes out. This being said, if we can see what all the game has to offer, or even 50% of what the game has to offer with regards to this, I think that the "Point of Boredom" will be reached sooner than what people are expecting.

We all know how important trade skills can be. However, if you had to use some obscene amount of skill points to change your talents, that would discourage people from changing thier talents for every other fight. That is, unless you were content with being just an average character where your trade skillls are concerned.

Another thought would be to be able to change your talents once everytime you level. So if you make a bad choice on your talents, you only have to deal with the consequences for one level. So there is the potential that you think that some talent sucks, but over the course of the level, you might see that it's not so bad.

I'm going along the lines here of instead of suddenly taking a level 20 character who just got the talents applied to thier class and dumping things in, you can "add as you go," as if you started a new character. It's one thing if you already have points just stockpiled. It's another if you're starting from square one.

But if you think about it, how do we know if there is a talent that sucks for the first 4 levels, but gets good on the 5th? I'm sorry that I have to keep referring back to D2, but Hurricane completely sucks for the first 4 levels. Then you start putting your synergies into it, and it turns out to be a pretty decent spell. By being able to reapply all the time, we're not testing the lower levels of the talents until we start new characters. We could get the general idea of what talent "trees" might be the best for this instance or that instance.

I think that I'm always going to look at a constant ability to change your talents as having a King's Sword of Haste (Bastard Sword) with the Godly Plate of Whale, and the Stormshield in the first Diablo. It removes the challenge. If we're able to redistribute the talents on a regular basis, and as the quest(s) need, how are we to know if a quest or a boss is too tough for the level you're at?

SaxyCorp

[--Pete]

Hi,

I think that I'm always going to look at a constant ability to change your talents as having a King's Sword of Haste (Bastard Sword) with the Godly Plate of Whale, and the Stormshield in the first Diablo. It removes the challenge.

Again, that's "player" think, not "tester" think.

I completely agree that *when the game goes retail* talents should be a permanent decision. That is a big part of the game. But right now, we should be testing, not playing. To test implies to try different things to see how they work.

As to the point of boredom -- that depends more on the underlying quality of the game than on the amount of "stuff" that is in it, or that is held back. D1 had a lot less "stuff" than did D2. I was bored with D2 in about six months, I was interested in D1 for at least five years. I only crank up D2 to "refresh" a few character lists (my own and others). I still occasionally play D1.

Chess is a simple game -- the rules and how the pieces move can all be put on one sheet of paper. Yet it has probably outlasted all the computer games put together. Sure, the sizzle might be what sells, but it is the steak that brings the customer back. So, if WoW has nothing going for it beyond what can be seen one time through (and I think it is rapidly going that way to cater to the "casual" player) then no amount of repetitive content is going to make it good. On the other hand, if it becomes a fundamentally good game, no amount of preview will hurt it much.

But if you think about it, how do we know if there is a talent that sucks for the first 4 levels, but gets good on the 5th?

Exactly -- which is why I think you should be able to "roll" a character of any class, race, and level, with appropriate gear at any time. If you want to see how a certain progression works, it is enough to build it up, one step at a time, and test each step for a little while. No need to spend hours grinding out each level. Remember "testing" not "playing". Doing something a few times is enough to test, you don't need to kill a thousand of the same monster to see if a particular build will work, but you may need to do it to level.

So, yeah. If they make talents changeable (or too easily changeable) in the retail game, that will be a disappointment -- but we're not playing the retail game, we're (supposedly) testing the beta.

--Pete

[MongoJerry]

I completely agree that *when the game goes retail* talents should be a permanent decision. That is a big part of the game. But right now, we should be testing, not playing. To test implies to try different things to see how they work.

But Pete, if you can switch your talents around from fight to fight, you'd be testing something completely different than what would be available at retail. I can tell you right now that an all-ice mage, for example, would be fantastic against a fire immune boss. That doesn't need to be tested. What does need to be tested is how well an all-ice mage does in getting to that boss. By allowing people to change their talents at will every time they visit a city, it gives testers ample chances to try different combinations of talents -- and yet, it also forces a person to test a condition much closer to retail. That is, the person is stuck with whatever talent combinations they chose for their entire trip away from the city. The nice thing is that if a combination turns out to be terrible, the person can hearth and/or fly back to a city and rearrange their talents. Once again, I think Blizzard's idea is a better testing mechanism than allowing people to change talent points from fight-to-fight.

[--Pete]

Hi,

Yes, yes, yes. BUT. Again, you are assuming "players". If you are intelligent enough to realize "What does need to be tested is how well an all-ice mage does in getting to that boss.", then why do you assume everyone else is too stupid to do so too? If that is what needs to be tested, why not assume that people will test just that?

Right now, the way it works is Blizzard gives out a bunch of copies of the beta and says, "Here's a sneak preview, kiddies. Go out and play your little guts out." And in spite of that, many people actually are testing as is obvious from the comments and suggestions on the beta forums. Now, usually I have have a pretty low opinion of my fellow man, but I think that if Blizzard gave us the tools to actually test, and some guidelines on how to usefully test, they'd get a bunch of great input. And my guess is that a lot more people than you might think would actually find testing to be as much fun as playing, if not more.

Because you are thinking like a player, you are thinking of doing the sequence up through the boss one time. And, sure, if you had unlimited ability to swap and were playing the game you would do just as you suggested. But now think of how you'd approach that if you were actually testing: you might set up one way, go through and see how that worked, then waited a minute or two till things spawned and tried it with a different set up. IF you are really testing, having to go back to the city is the waste -- hearthstoning or running or riding is what does not need to be tested.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that if you not only could, but actually *had* to start a new character every time you logged on during the beta, Blizzard would actually get more testing out of the "testers". And that would preserve most of the goodness of the retail game untouched since the building of the character, with its associated feeling of "ownership", would still be the defining novel experience that the beta would not have spoiled for you.

On the other hand, if all Blizzard wants out of us is lab rat server load, then the way it is would probably be much better, given that a lot of "testers" (and people in general) just wouldn't have the patience to really test.

But, ultimately, if someone actually does what you suggest -- change talents for each encounter -- what does that hurt? In my opinion, it just shows a lack of thought, a lack of understanding, of both the mechanics of the game and of testing. So what? If, as you say, they are doing things that don't need to be tested, then they are simply not generating any useful input. That does not make them much different than most of the population, does it?

But it doesn't matter -- your opinion, my opinion, all insignificant. Blizzard will do as Blizzard will do.

--Pete