Powergaming in WoW

[Bolty]

Thinking about what the powergamers or more experienced players will do in WoW in release, I wondered about the viability of quests. The quest system in WoW makes for a very fun and fresh game for the casual gamer, and provides significant experience and equipment rewards for completion. It's what can really set WoW apart from the competition - when you can log on for an hour and complete a quest or two, advancing your character, it's a Good Thing.™

However, what if you just ran instances from level 20 on? Just plain stopped bothering with quests?

I was thinking of a basic powergamer system for quick leveling in WoW. For example, let's say you're playing Alliance. The fastest way to level is to do the quests until level 20 or so, making sure to complete the Westfall quests as well. It's important to do quests early on, since the experience boost is substantial and it gives by far the best items - there are no instances designed for players under around level 20. Once you get to level 20 (or near it), start joining in Deadmines groups and just farm the Van Cleef instance over and over and over. Then move to the next instance.

You can do the Alliance instances in order:
01) Deadmines (20-25)
02) Wailing Caverns (20-25)
03) Stockades (25-30)
04) Blackfathom Deeps (25-30)
05) Razorfen Kraul (??? somewhere around 30ish?)
06) Gnomeregan (28-32)
06) Scarlet Monastery (35-45)
07) Razorfen Deeps (40-45)
08) Uldaman (40-45)
09) Zul'Farrak (45-50)
10) Sunken Temple (50-beyond)
11) Blackrock Spire (not yet in the beta)
12) ...lots more to come, including raid zones

I'm sure I even missed a few that I forgot about. There's enough instances to go to town on such that questing can be irrelevant. You can keep doing these instances over and over. Advantages:

1) No travel time wasted going around the world. Travel time becomes more significant the higher the level you get, since the quests start really having you go all over the place. At level 45 in the beta, I'm getting quests that have you go collect items/kill things in 3-4 different zones of the world. If you're farming instances, you go in, you go out; you go in, you go out.

2) Phat Lewt. Bosses in instances drop things that are better than the quest rewards at that level. The difference in quality between quest rewards and instance drops increases the higher in level you get.

3) With the new quest sharing system, you can always grab some of the quests people take that lead them into these instances just by being in their parties. Let the others do the running around for you! It's bonus exp on top of your farming.

4) Fast accumulation of cash due to selling in town all the phat lewt you can't use. You'd probably have a mount at level 40, no sweat.

5) Don't have to slam your head against the wall when your quest queue is constantly full, since you're not doing quests! You will only bother performing class quests, since the rewards (new skills, phat class-items) are usually very worth it.



Disadvantages:

1) It's boring as crap to do the same instance 10 times. However, this can be mitigated by the fact that you avoid travel time, mentioned above. Remember, powergamers don't necessarily care that the early stuff is boring - they want to get to the high-end content as quickly as possible, period. Also, the challenge level is high, and that can keep it interesting.

2) Could be tough to develop certain tradeskills, such as Herbalism which isn't available much in instances (herbs are rarely found indoors).



So, I can see it happening that after you've played through the game and done much of the quest content with your first 1-3 characters, when you've become a seasoned vet you may likely just follow this pattern. Casual gamers won't have the blocks of time to invest into instance farming, but the powergamer can do just fine by this method, IMHO. Six months after the game's release, what do you think the odds are that it can be hard to find people to join you for non-instance activity, especially at the higher levels?

Already I find that when in the Badlands during primetime, it can be hard to find people to do non-Uldaman quests. If you're in the Badlands, you're there for Uldaman, most figure. If you're in Tanaris, you're there for Zul'Farrak. I don't really blame them - many times the reward isn't worth the aggravation of running out to some remote place to find something, other than the satisfaction of completing quests and feeling like you're "beating" the game.

Thoughts?

-Bolty

[lemekim]

Razorfen Kraul is 35-45 instance, much like Scarlet Monastery Cathedral part.

On this whole issue though, I find that there are often mobs that are easier to kill and give better experience then the ones in instances. For one, bosses in instances can take up a lot of time/effort (phat lewt aside), which you could have spent leveling (if you are going that far to just level). Also, there are many mobs that can be killed relatively fast by a particular class, with little danger to oneself and with good experience rewards. For example, the elite whelps in Badlands. If you can prevent them from casting fireballs most of the time, you can kill them over and over again for some very good and fast experience. It's boring as hell, but it's fastest way to level at 40-45 if you can handle them.

Still, I wouldn't discard quests completely - some quests are so east and fast to do, while giving relatively high experience, that it's silly not to do them.

[MongoJerry]

I agree with most of what you're saying, Bolty, although I agree with Leme that there it would be even more time efficient to solo mobs outside of instances. The elite whelplings in the Badlands are a favorite of many power gamers. However, I found that timewise, killing the pirates in Tanaris were just as efficient. They give about half to one-third the experience per kill that the whelplings do, but they're not elite, so they're easy to kill and there are a ton of them around and you have little competition (and a low chance of getting ganked on the PvP server). I'm sure there are other places one can go. Heck, you can pretty much farm any old group of mobs near your level that you have an easy time fighting and rack up the experience points.

2) Phat Lewt. Bosses in instances drop things that are better than the quest rewards at that level. The difference in quality between quest rewards and instance drops increases the higher in level you get.

You've dismissed quest reward items at higher levels previously, and while I know you're probably exaggerating a bit, I feel I have to comment on this just to make sure people don't get the wrong impression. As Bolty mentioned, early on, quest reward items will dominate your equipment at first. Then, the amount slides once you get into the 20's and 30's, although there are still some good quest reward items available for those levels. However, even at the very high levels, quest reward items still have their places.

My level 50 priestess on the PvP server has run the Temple literally dozens of times. She owns every fixed loot-table drop in the instance that she would be interested in. She's covered in Temple loot. However, even still, she still wears three quest drop items: A circlet that's a reward for beating Hakkar (the big boss in the Temple), a Nifty Stopwatch (a trinket that's a reward for a quest series in the Badlands), and a trinket that heals you outside of combat (a quest reward in the Blasted Lands). Also, I sometimes switch in my Essense of Erikanus, a quest reward trinket that lets me cast a decent aoe spell once an hour.

So, yes, most of one's equipment at high levels will be instance drops or items constructed using trade skills, but some quest reward items can still be quite useful at high levels.

[lemekim]

Not to mention that right now some of the best weapons/items are quest rewards =) (Enchanted Azhurite Felbane Dagger anyone?)

And yea, the dragon whelps are just one example. For a priest, the pirates can be easier to kill, as the priests have no effective way to prevent fireball casts of the dragon whelps. Different classes have different strengths/weaknesses. Pick accordingly =)

[Guest]

In DAoC you needed a group to level so basically everyone just staid at the best places for groups to level. Evereyone would just log at the entrance to the dungeon and when they came back just sit there and wait for a group - boring but the only effective way you could level in old DAoC.

It works like this roughly...

Lvl 1-5 solo
lvl 6-11 Mithras Tomb
lvl 12-18 Salibury plains
lvl 19-23 Keltoi(a dungeon for of Celts)
lvl 24-29 Catacombs of Cordova
lvl 30 - 40 Barrows(another dungeon)
lvl 40 - 50 Avalon City(a city that was taken over by monsters, basically a dungeon)


What you descibe as power leveling will seem very normal to ex-DAoC players. But personally I an llooking forward to haveing worth while quests at all levels.

[--Pete]

Hi,

I presume by "powergaming" you simply mean leveling as fast as possible.

First, forget quest rewards as far as powergaming is concerned. Sure, if a good drop or a good reward comes your way, use it. But to waste time for an additional couple of points of armor or an additional 0.1 dps just doesn't pay off.

Looking at the quests, they basically come in a few flavors. Free points for going someplace you're eventually going anyway -- obviously worth doing. Extra points for killing a bunch of critters you were going to kill anyway -- again, it's a free lunch. Some dinky reward and points for killing a named boss -- not worth the time. Instances -- too much down time unless one is tied into a very active (and reasonably good) guild.

Killing vanilla critters at or just below your level is about the fastest way of leveling from what I've seen and from the people I've talked to. It doesn't max XP per kill, but there is almost no down time and unless done very badly no recovery runs. With decent storage and a reasonable knowledge of what is and isn't worth trying to sell, you pretty much only need to hit town every few gaming hours which you can do with a hearthstone -- and that's the only useful thing to come out of the whole "rest" fiasco.

With maps like the one you linked to, it becomes easy to find regions with critters just right for fast leveling. And, of course, if one has done a region with a previous character, it becomes pretty fast to get all the worthwhile quests there.

As for the quest log filling, not a problem for a powergamer. For one thing, he's not gonna fill his log with a bunch of 'elite' quests. And he's not going to grab quests that involve a lot of running around for just a few points. By cherry picking the quests as he does the critters, he'll make very fast progress.

I started a character on the PvP server just to see how fast I could level using that method. Got to level 5 in 1 hour and to 10 in 5:29. That's when I quit in boredom. Someday I'll go back and play her another five hours or so and see what happens.

--Pete

[MongoJerry]

I started a character on the PvP server just to see how fast I could level using that method. Got to level 5 in 1 hour and to 10 in 5:29. That's when I quit in boredom. Someday I'll go back and play her another five hours or so and see what happens.

I'd be interested in the results. However, as Bolty mentioned, when you're small, experience from quest rewards are significant. It's only later on that grinding becomes faster relative to questing.

[--Pete]

Hi,

However, as Bolty mentioned, when you're small, experience from quest rewards are significant. It's only later on that grinding becomes faster relative to questing.

Yes. But my point was that grinding is the way to go from the start. Basically, Damiella has been killing everything and anything that will give her experience, seeking out the areas rich in critters at or just below her level. However, if some NPCs want to give her an experience boost for doing what she would be doing anyway, she'll take advantage of it.

However, quests are insidious. On a number of occasions I've wasted time looking for "one more spider because I've almost got that quest done" rather than just moving on to where ever she'd get some more killing done. That, I think, points out the underlying difference between a role player and a powergamer. It's not so much 'how' one plays as it is 'why'. Personally, I find it as much fun spending a day mapping a city or exploring a mountain range or crafting useless items to see what they look like as I do grinding out experience by questing or killing. To me, level is meaningless other than as a means of opening new areas and items to explore. To a powergamer, level is the only thing that matters, and they do not take the time (or have the interest) to explore what that level has made possible.

This difference in outlook (and I think it probably goes way beyond games) is why I think that Damiella's future is bleak. I'll probably have to thoroughly explore both the potential of a warrior and the potential(s) of the Night Elves before I can push a character through without smelling the roses on the way. And by the time I've done the prerequisite exploring to not be tempted away from the path of pure experience grinding, I'll probably be bored of the game and have moved on. Such is the life of a dilettante :)

--Pete

[Crusader]

I simply wouldn't do it because I play WoW because it's NOT Diablo. :lol: :P

[smithy]

I'm not in the beta so most of this is speculation and educated guess.

I used to play DAOC a while back, actually years ago when it first came out.

There is a dirty little secret that keeps MMORPGs from really hitting the mainstream (besides the pay-for-play). They are not for casual gamers.

I make that statement because ever since Everquest was released, MMORPGs have been Everquest and not Everquest. Think about it? All WoW seems to be is a refined Everquest painted with Warcraft colors.

Come on, what do you all really think is going to happen? It's the beta for christsake (not meant to offend anyone :)) and already the only thing 95% of the Wow (or at least the vocal ones it seems) cares about it PvP. Oh sorry, they also like to whine about how ganked their character is and how no one will ever want to group with a character that is the same (in terms of power) as everyone elses.

There is no real innovation to be seen in WoW, just evolution. I think every powergamer out there that has played a MMORPG and enjoyed it will enjoy WoW. People who don't like MMORPG probably won't like WoW.

If you're in the second group, perhaps you would like to join me in waiting for Guild Wars.

Smithy

Note: I've been trying to keep up with WoW beta info but I probably don't know what the hell I am talking about; so, if any beta players out there have information contradictory to what I think WoW will turn out to be, please let me know. I really am hoping that the WoW content will be as accessible to casual gamers as it is to power gamers.

EDIT: I want to clarify. I think powerleveling is going to be the same in WoW as in any other MMORPG that follow the Everquest model. if it turns out that quests are the fastest way to level up, the powergamers (especially in guilds) will be running their characters through quests.

For example, each person in a guild could make a chracter with a certain chunk of the quests needed for low level powerleveling. With the new quest sharing, it would work just like a Diablo2 Duriel muel. Each character could come in, load their quests to the group, and then when the quest mule's other character returns the quest can then be given back.

Overall, WoW seems just like every other MMORPG out there with a few minor (and largely inconsequential) differences.

[MongoJerry]

I simply wouldn't do it because I play WoW because it's NOT Diablo.  :lol:  :P

I doubt most of the people here would either. Bolty's started this thread to get a conversation going on what power levelers would likely end up doing. Personally, I really enjoy completing quests -- especially ones that have some decent story to them and are different from the normal collection quest.

[Crusader]

I believe that on the higher levels, especially, questing works better than powerlevelling by monster killing. You don't get bored with it as easily and it gives big chunks. disadvantage is your skills lagging behind a bit (my swords and defense skills always lag a level or two behind my current max).

[TaiDaishar]

I believe that on the higher levels, especially, questing works better than powerlevelling by monster killing. You don't get bored with it as easily and it gives big chunks. disadvantage is your skills lagging behind a bit (my swords and defense skills always lag a level or two behind my current max).

The entire fiasco of XP from quests not giving skill points is quite dumb in my opinion, is Blizzard trying to encourage the no-quests mentality or has there been any word about it being corrected?