Electoral College

[Occhidiangela]

And that, sadly hits the nail square on the head not only for the US but world wide...  :D

In a time where the media dictate the outcome of elections (and yes, even in France and here in Germany and *everywhere*, just perhaps not with so many strange rituals...  :P ) and it's necessary to spend hundreds of millions to get elected, that will even increase in the future. And political parties (even in countries where there are more than 2 that count :ph34r: ) will keep becoming more and more similar to each other.

But I still think that Bush would speed up the downward spiral more than Kerry, if only a bit...
[right][snapback]58792[/snapback][/right]

Armin, I am not sure if this has changed much, but while I was in Italy, there were enough parties with enough support that most PM's were leading a coalition.

Speaking on the German side, is it fair to say that the multi party texture of your Parliament (I am at the moment blanking on the German word for it, is it Bundestag?) has polarized into a virtual two party system? I am a bit out of date on German politics these days, other than to have heard that an anti Bush campaign did Gerhardt Schroeder more good than it did John Kerry! (Or, so it seems in retrospect.)

Occhi

[ShadowHM]

As to other nations and their elections, I was bummed when Prodi lost power in Italy, as he was a moderate who made some headway in a rapidly changing world.  That said, it was Italy's decision to make, and America's, and every other nation's, position to "deal with it, the Italians have chosen their latest Prime Minister for their own reasons." 


Occhi
[right][snapback]59163[/snapback][/right]

To Occhi:

Indeed, the governments of other countries should take the position you outlined above. I am sure there are still some Nicaraguans who wish the government of the U.S.A. had taken this attitude 20-odd years ago. :P But individuals are entitled to any opinion they wish to form. You may not like their opinions; you may feel that their opinions should be based on better and more complete information. But freedom of speech is one of those tenets that both our societies love to cherish. It would be more constructive to teach instead of lashing out. :(

To eppie:

To paraphrase what I said in another thread yesterday: There are as many reasons for voting one way or another as there are individual voters in America.

Americans, first and foremost, have to elect the government that they feel will serve them best. They each have different priorities and agendas about what they think will do that.

Yes, the rest of the world has a huge concern about what goes on in America. But you cannot expect the 'average American voter' (including those Midwest Farmers) to worry first about the world at large. They worry first about themselves and their own families, just like the rest of us. :)

My American cottage neighbours all voted for Bush. They are reasonable and educated people. They made their choice based on their perceptions of what would be the best for themselves and America, not based on what I think or what you might think. Before you make comments about ignorant voters, think about the 'average' citizen of your country, and how motivated/qualified they are for making voting decisions based solely on national policy, let alone international policy. I know what voters here are like. I would be very surprised if voters in the Netherlands are that much different. ;)

Edit: Preview should be my friend....I wanted bold, not quotes.

[eppie]

My American cottage neighbours all voted for Bush.  They are reasonable and educated people.  They made their choice based on their perceptions of what would be the best for themselves and America, not based on what I think or what you might think.  Before you make comments about ignorant voters, think about the 'average' citizen of your country, and how motivated/qualified they are for making voting decisions based solely on national policy, let alone international policy.  I know what voters here are like.  I would be very surprised if voters in the Netherlands are that much different.  ;)
[right][snapback]59192[/snapback][/right]

No of course they are the same. E.g. the large christian party usually gets all the votes from farmers and from christians. Also here there are many of them that only vote for that party just because they are against euthanasia or something.

Of course that is their right, just like it is the right of the christian farmers in teh US to vote for Bush for his stance on gay rights and abortion, even to financially they would benefit more from Kerry. (money isn't their reason for voting, and I can only compliment them on that). But this clearly shows the benefits of the system we have here in Holland (or germany or France or belgium) Voters that like the social aspect of the christian democrats can also vote for the workers party. Workers that don't like abortion can also vote for the Christian democrats without having to fear for tax-cuts for the rich. Environmentalists can vote for a party without that party wanting to take the money from the rich.
There is here just less chance that a party can have a whole group of people vote for them, just because of one subject. The fact that the goverment is always a coalition also helps of course. This way you don't have problems with one year "a party gets things done" and the next year another party, wants to change all the se new laws again. (like Bush' not signing of environment bills)

People in general are ignorant, people get influenced easily by things the see or hear (including myself), so it is better to have a not so extreme winner takes it all system. (the biggest result oif Bush victory is I guess the appointing of conservative judges, which will make it really difficult for gays to mary, for girls to have an abortion etc. in the next 10 years)

[Occhidiangela]

To Occhi:
Indeed, the governments of other countries should take the position you outlined above. 

I think you and I will need to agree to disagree on that.

Had the Government of the US not taken a good hard look at how the governments of other nations were, or were not, developing as the Stalinist/Communist bloc attempted to spread its brand of governance/rulership, we would have lost the cold war. It's a thing called Strategy. The price for failure can be as high as the price paid by Carthage.

Nicaragua had the very bad luck to be on the field, as a geeky chess player, during a Rugby match. Many is the small nation frustrated by the bodily fluids that fell their way as the super power blocs wrestled.

Occhi

[ShadowHM]

I think you and I will need to agree to disagree on that. 

Had the Government of the US not taken a good hard look at how the governments of other nations were, or were not, developing as the Stalinist/Communist bloc attempted to spread its brand of governance/rulership, we would have lost the cold war.  It's a thing called Strategy.  The price for failure can be as high as the price paid by Carthage.
[right][snapback]59215[/snapback][/right]

Hmm.....could you elaborate on that one, please. I am probably misunderstanding you.

To paraphrase what I think you said: "No matter how a group of citizens choose their government, we reserve the right to meddle in that process if we don't like the outcome." Did you really mean that?

Or was it: "If we see that a group of citizens choose their government in a fashion that makes us believe that it was imposed from without somehow, we reserve the right to meddle in that process."

Or was it: "If we don't like the outcome of an election, we reserve the right to deal with the subsequent government in any way we see fit."

If it was one of the latter two, we may be able to talk some more. But if you think democratic outcomes are only for some of us and not for others, well.....we disagree a whole lot more than I realized. :o

And, on this:

Nicaragua had the very bad luck to be on the field, as a geeky chess player, during a Rugby match.  Many is the small nation frustrated by the bodily fluids that fell their way as the super power blocs wrestled.

Succinct, if unrepentant. :P

[Occhidiangela]

None of the above, Shadow.

If we see an inimical power attempting to set up puppets, in our sphere of influence, we'd be fools not to counter their move if we do not wish to accept strategic defeat. It was very much the Great Game, the Game of Empires. Seen another way, the Cold War was a rather bloody chess game.

Stake: All the marbles.

Canada chose to back what turned out to be the winning racecar, indeed, was a part of the racing team that won the last lap of the long and arduous race. They choice could have been otherwise.

There are rarely do overs in geopolitics, in realpolitik, which is the real coin of the realm of international interaction. Real international relations are played Hardcore.

All of the smiles, obfuscation, hyperbole, teas and summits are a load of misdirection.

Occhi

[whyBish]

Nicaragua had the very bad luck to be on the field, as a geeky chess player, during a Rugby match.

Nice metaphor :lol:

[whyBish]

If we see an inimical power attempting to set up puppets, in our sphere of influence, we'd be fools not to counter their move if we do not wish to accept strategic defeat. 

"Who cares what you think about how we elect a president?"

So we shouldn't have an opinion about how the US elects a president, but the U.S. has the right to an opinion (and action) on how other countries elect their president? (particularly the non-'democratic' ones?)

Anyway, I'm glad Bush won. It will give non-American companies good opportunity to profit from stem cell technologies.

[Occhidiangela]

"Who cares what you think about how we elect a president?"

So we shouldn't have an opinion about how the US elects a president, but the U.S. has the right to an opinion (and action) on how other countries elect their president? (particularly the non-'democratic' ones?)

Anyway, I'm glad Bush won.  It will give non-American companies good opportunity to profit from stem cell technologies.
[right][snapback]59314[/snapback][/right]

Snork! I like your last bit. :rolleyes:

As to the resentment of small nations being at times powerless to convince the Powers to quit being such aholes to one another and playing chess on their local board, that's only been going on since . . . Egyptian Empire? China started having Emperors?

It's the way the world works. What's different is what the aftermath can be.

Ask any Pole. :D

Occhi

[ShadowHM]

As to the resentment of small nations being at times powerless to convince the Powers to quit being such aholes to one another and playing chess on their local board, that's only been going on since . . . Egyptian Empire?  China started having Emperors?

It's the way the world works.  What's different is what the aftermath can be.



Occhi
[right][snapback]59376[/snapback][/right]

*wry smile*

And since there is only one Superpower left, I am reminded of that quote attributed to Oscar Wilde:

"He has no enemies but is intensely disliked by his friends."

[Armin]

Armin, I am not sure if this has changed much, but while I was in Italy, there were enough parties with enough support that most PM's were leading a coalition. 

Speaking on the German side, is it fair to say that the multi party texture of your Parliament (I am at the moment blanking on the German word for it, is it Bundestag?) has polarized into a virtual two party system?  I am a bit out of date on German politics these days, other than to have heard that an anti Bush campaign did Gerhardt Schroeder more good than it did John Kerry!  (Or, so it seems in retrospect.)

Occhi
[right][snapback]59165[/snapback][/right]

A virtual 2-party system? I'd wish :P

Currently, of the 5 partys in the German Bundestag, 4 spout so much of the same neoliberal drivel that it could make one sick.

And yes, speaking out against the invasion pretty much got Schroeder reelected. Damn. And now we're stuck with the idiot... <_<

[Assur]

A virtual 2-party system? I'd wish&nbsp; :P

Currently, of the 5 partys in the German Bundestag, 4 spout so much of the same neoliberal drivel that it could make one sick.

And yes, speaking out against the invasion pretty much got Schroeder reelected. Damn. And now we're stuck with the idiot...&nbsp; <_<
[right][snapback]59415[/snapback][/right]

Oh yeah

And what did you do? Vote for the PDS? What you call the "neoliberal" parties are just normal German poltical parties, always saying that they are for solidarity and spending other peoples money for Sozialschmarotzer.

[whyBish]

Snork!&nbsp; I like your last bit.&nbsp; :rolleyes:

The pity is, it is only after the election that I actually hear what these guys were standing for. With all that we saw in the media here, I couldn't tell what was going on other than a mudslinging match. Now that I start to hear the 'what' and the 'how' I think I would change my preference to Bush (Yay for lower taxes :P )

Ah well, maybe one day I will have the opportunity to not influence the outcome :P

[Armin]

Oh yeah

And what did you do?

Simple. Got a member:

http://www.wahlalternative-asg.de/

spending other peoples money for&nbsp; Sozialschmarotzer.
[right][snapback]59429[/snapback][/right]

From your profile I would have hoped that you read something more than "Bildzeitung" ;)

But the lies and Stammtischpropaganda work well...

[Occhidiangela]

A virtual 2-party system? I'd wish&nbsp; :P

Currently, of the 5 partys in the German Bundestag, 4 spout so much of the same neoliberal drivel that it could make one sick.

And yes, speaking out against the invasion pretty much got Schroeder reelected. Damn. And now we're stuck with the idiot...&nbsp; <_<
[right][snapback]59415[/snapback][/right]

OMG! I just noticed that your are from Freiburg. Back in the 1980's, I had a serious girlfriend/love interest from Freiburg. She had come to America in the mid 1970's, and was an English teacher in Virginia Beach, VA. Karola. Wonderful lady, we shared a lot of mad love for Shakespeare each fall at the annual Shakespeare by the Sea festival in Virginia Beach.

I used to joke that in Southern Virginia, we had to import Germans to teach our kids proper English. :lol: I wonder if that is still "policy" . . .

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

*wry smile*

And since there is only one Superpower left, I am reminded of that quote attributed to Oscar Wilde:

"He has no enemies but is intensely disliked by his friends."
[right][snapback]59412[/snapback][/right]

Interesting Wildism, it goes hand in had with the old saw

"With friends like France/Belgium/Whiner-nation du jour, who needs enemies?"

What kills me is all the hate being sent Canada's way. I met yet another great Canadian, a herc pilot, while I was in Qatar. Jeremy and I plan to, hopefully, have a dust up drink up in Alberta, where he is from, next summer. If, of course, I can convince Mrs Occhi to travel to Canada. Should not be too, too hard . . .

Occhi

[Assur]

[quote=Armin,Nov 6 2004, 11:05 AM]


From your profile I would have hoped that you read something more than "Bildzeitung" ;)

Actually I prefer The Economist and the NZZ :rolleyes:



Reminder to self: No posting after visiting the pubs