This just in...

[MongoJerry]

I think I understand now how they will try to accomplish this. Apparently the release game will not include our input from Open Beta. It will probably a separate, more advanced version of the patch we are about to get.

OK, I think you and Lochnar are forgetting the unique structure of an on-line based game like this. With this type of game, you can "go gold," print CD's, etc. and yet continue to work on the game and have a game-day patch. Lots of other games have done this. Heck, D2:LoD did that, and that was a "stand-alone" game.

I hope you're right that this game isn't as bad as Bolty seems to think. Frankly, I'm still reeling from his comments. My view of the game is exceptionally limited right now, especially since I'm a level 12 Paladin (no Talents) on a non-PvP server. But I can tell you this - Pallys are gimped. Without talents we can barely manage mobs one-on-one, and I do mean barely. Hopefully talents will change this. And, hopefully more tweaks are in the works for us.

Level 12? I'm sorry, but I have to chuckle a bit. I mean, this is like someone playing D2 for the first time and saying that sorceresses are gimped because they're having a hard time beating Blood Raven. You haven't seen much of the game, yet, and haven't gotten some of the best skills for your class. I can tell you that the rubber-stamp level 60 five-man group for alliance is: warrior, paladin, mage, warlock, priest. Other classes can be subbed in (druid for pally, rogue for mage or warlock, for examples), but that's the default group. There are lots of high-level pally's out there and they are desired for groups. Also, they are considered good PvP'ers. It'll be nice for them to have talents like everyone else, but it's laughable to say they're "gimped." Everyone's "gimped" at level 12.

The idea behind this game is very different from your standard stand-alone games. I know people here know that intellectually, but it seems like people are still thinking in stand-alone mode where every possible feature has to be implemented right at release. There's going to be a large development team creating things after the release. One isn't expected to have everything already in place at release, because there are an infinite number of possible improvements and additions that can be made to the game. The question is, is there plenty of stuff to do to have fun with the game at release, even before all the other stuff gets put into place. The answer right now for me is, yes, there is. Months of gametime play can be devoted to just what is in the game now. It would be nice to have all the PvP system and raid system completely fleshed out before release, but we know that there will be some of that at release, and after that, a lot of post-release development will be devoted to it. Meanwhile, there's a lot of fun to be had with the characters, quests, and instances that are already in place now.

But again, let's temper our discussion until we see the patch that should be coming in the next few days. The next patch is supposed to introduce pally and hunter talents, the first real vestiges of a PvP reward system, the first mini-battleground, the first raid instance, and a lot of revamping of areas and classes. That's a lot of stuff, and no doubt having read that sentence, several of you are probably ready to sound off on how that's not enough time to test everything yadda yadda. But, you know what? Let's just see what comes and keep an open mind about it.

[MongoJerry]

If the patch is like so many others, just introducing new bugs to replace old ones, and introducing no promise of a PvP system at all, I'm done with WoW.

You know, this is the stuff that makes me wonder about the way you've chosen to test the beta. We had a mini-discussion about this today -- about how you keep creating so many characters that you never see any of the high end content. Of course, new patches will seem like they don't change things very much to you, because you keep going to the same areas over and over again and doing the same things over and over again. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the last I heard was the highest instance you'd visited was Uldaman. There's so much more to the game, including some beautiful high-level areas and gorgeous high level instances that have been added and have continued to be fleshed out with each passing patch. I've seen a lot of the little-to-big problems I've had with the game get fixed up over time. I've seen some dramatic positive changes made to the game in just a few month's time. Are there things that should be added or changed in the game? Of course! But I'm not seeing the basis for your apocalyptic visions for the future of the game. On the contrary, each passing patch has given me more hope for the game, and the comments from the game developers themselves give me even more hope that they're going in the right direction. I can understand a debate on whether it would be best to wait six months to buy the game or not. But I don't see the reason behind your sweeping negativity surrounding what is shaping up to be a darned good game.

[Lissa]

You people seem to be forgetting one more factor.  Release date is the 23rd.  EBgames shows it as shipping on the 22nd so that people can have it the day it is released.  We are now in a stress test with an open beta coming next week.  At some point, this thing has to go gold so that CDs, and the game boxes they come in, can be put together and shipped out.  That does not happen overnight and I would think that it would have to happen very, very soon.

People are certainly going to be buying a beta and should expect to heavily patch for a while.  I just don't see any way that can not be the case if they actually do release on the 23rd.  :(
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Just because the game is shipping doesn't mean that there can't be more done before the servers go live. Right now, the Client is done (that's why they're shipping). The remaining stuff can be done mostly server side.

WoW is more ready for release than most MMORPGs have been over the past couple years.

[Roland]

OK, I think you and Lochnar are forgetting the unique structure of an on-line based game like this.  With this type of game, you can "go gold," print CD's, etc. and yet continue to work on the game and have a game-day patch.  Lots of other games have done this.  Heck, D2:LoD did that, and that was a "stand-alone" game.
Level 12?  I'm sorry, but I have to chuckle a bit.  I mean, this is like someone playing D2 for the first time and saying that sorceresses are gimped because they're having a hard time beating Blood Raven.  You haven't seen much of the game, yet, and haven't gotten some of the best skills for your class.  I can tell you that the rubber-stamp level 60 five-man group for alliance is: warrior, paladin, mage, warlock, priest.  Other classes can be subbed in (druid for pally, rogue for mage or warlock, for examples), but that's the default group.  There are lots of high-level pally's out there and they are desired for groups.  Also, they are considered good PvP'ers.  It'll be nice for them to have talents like everyone else, but it's laughable to say they're "gimped."  Everyone's "gimped" at level 12.

The idea behind this game is very different from your standard stand-alone games.  I know people here know that intellectually, but it seems like people are still thinking in stand-alone mode where every possible feature has to be implemented right at release.  There's going to be a large development team creating things after the release.  One isn't expected to have everything already in place at release, because there are an infinite number of possible improvements and additions that can be made to the game.  The question is, is there plenty of stuff to do to have fun with the game at release, even before all the other stuff gets put into place.  The answer right now for me is, yes, there is.  Months of gametime play can be devoted to just what is in the game now.  It would be nice to have all the PvP system and raid system completely fleshed out before release, but we know that there will be some of that at release, and after that, a lot of post-release development will be devoted to it.  Meanwhile, there's a lot of fun to be had with the characters, quests, and instances that are already in place now.

But again, let's temper our discussion until we see the patch that should be coming in the next few days.  The next patch is supposed to introduce pally and hunter talents, the first real vestiges of a PvP reward system, the first mini-battleground, the first raid instance, and a lot of revamping of areas and classes.  That's a lot of stuff, and no doubt having read that sentence, several of you are probably ready to sound off on how that's not enough time to test everything yadda yadda.  But, you know what?  Let's just see what comes and keep an open mind about it.
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No. Not eveyone is gimped at level 12. Only Paladins and, to a lesser extent, Hunters. At least Hunters can manage aggro through ranged attacks. Paladins have NO such option! We have NO crowd control. We are GIMPED. Without a group, we can BARELY solo because we can't handle more than two monsters at a time!

I have no fear that as I progress through the levels, things will shape up. I also have no fear that when Talents are introduced, Paladins' powers will climb dramatically overnight. But that doesn't change the FACT that, as it stands right now, Paladins are gimped. :P

In other news, I finally got Resurrection. I LOVED that quest. I almost felt it was a little too short / easy, but it was still fun. I hope they have lots more class / profession-specific quests. It just totally adds to the RP value of the character. Maybe now I'll be able to help in groups more than standing back and healing while someone else takes the punishment (generally a "weaker" class, like a Priest!).

Edit:
I know all about MMOs. I play them all the time these days. I know how they work, and I know how they can be worked on after release. But you CANNOT RELEASE A BROKEN GAME! Imagine releasing D2 without only the first 3 Acts and only 4 out of 5 characters had skills. It's the same exact thing. It doesn't mean JACK that they can patch to eternity after release. That's a given. What is "laughable" is your willingness to bow down and accept a wholly incomplete game that's missing the most BASIC functions!

I'm getting WoW at release, and I'm sure I will enjoy it (how long remains to be seen), but I am not going to stay quiet about a release without Paladin and Hunter talents. THAT is what is laughable.

[MongoJerry]

Edit:
I know all about MMOs. I play them all the time these days. I know how they work, and I know how they can be worked on after release. But you CANNOT RELEASE A BROKEN GAME! Imagine releasing D2 without only the first 3 Acts and only 4 out of 5 characters had skills. It's the same exact thing. It doesn't mean JACK that they can  patch to eternity after release. That's a given. What is "laughable" is your willingness to bow down and accept a wholly incomplete game that's missing the most BASIC functions!

I guess that's the difference in our perceptions. I don't think it's missing its most basic functions. The game is pretty darned good *right now*. In contrast, D2 was an awful broken game at the start, and D2:LoD was such a half-formed broken game that it disgusted me so much that I stopped playing it after two weeks and didn't come back until I heard about the 1.10 patch coming out. (imho, the 1.10 patch is what LoD should've been like in the first place).

I'm getting WoW at release, and I'm sure I will enjoy it (how long remains to be seen), but I am not going to stay quiet about a release without Paladin and Hunter talents. THAT is what is laughable.

I can't agree with you more there. As I have stated before, I'm waiting until the patch to decide whether to buy the game. If the hunter and paladin talents are reasonable and if the refinements to various zones pan out, then I'll buy the game. The difference between me and some others here is that I'm actually optimistic, and I don't see the need for all of the apocalyptic pronouncements. I've enjoyed playing the game heavily for over eight months and there's still a ton of it left for me to explore. That's not an indication of a broken game to me. It is certainly light-years beyond the brokeness of D2 and especially D2:LoD at their respective releases.

[iyguy]

No. Not eveyone is gimped at level 12. Only Paladins and, to a lesser extent, Hunters. At least Hunters can manage aggro through ranged attacks. Paladins have NO such option! We have NO crowd control. We are GIMPED. Without a group, we can BARELY solo because we can't handle more than two monsters at a time!

This is not much different from my shaman at level 13. The mobs that give me the most trouble are warlock and hunter NPC's simply because I haven't figured out a good way to deal with the pets. And I almost always have to retreat whenever I get adds. Also, the fact that paladins and hunters don't have talent really isn't an issue at this level because you only have 3 points to play with at this point, which doesn't make that much of a difference in a fight.

[LochnarITB]

Just because the game is shipping doesn't mean that there can't be more done before the servers go live.  Right now, the Client is done (that's why they're shipping).  The remaining stuff can be done mostly server side.[right][snapback]59342[/snapback][/right]

OK, I think you and Lochnar are forgetting the unique structure of an on-line based game like this.  With this type of game, you can "go gold," print CD's, etc. and yet continue to work on the game and have a game-day patch.[right][snapback]59333[/snapback][/right]

None of what either of you said changed the truth of what I said. I repeat - People are certainly going to be buying a beta and should expect to heavily patch for a while. Granted, given the structure of this system, it is hard to draw a line at which point the game can no longer be called beta. Also, if you truly believe that the client is done, and will never require a patch, you have been living in a different gaming world than I.

[lemekim]

OK, I think you and Lochnar are forgetting the unique structure of an on-line based game like this. With this type of game, you can "go gold," print CD's, etc. and yet continue to work on the game and have a game-day patch. Lots of other games have done this. Heck, D2:LoD did that, and that was a "stand-alone" game.

Yes you are probably right Mongo, and yet that doesn't make me less afraid. On one hand, we might be faced with Torrent download again (probably not though). On the other hand we might be faced with an untested ftp/http download (why didn't they test it yet?), which is probably several hundreds megabytes big.

While I agree that the game quality will be one of the best MMORPGs, the game quality on Blizzard standard is one of the lowest yet. And don't give me the excuse that this is a MMORPG - we are paying more for the game (a lot more), so people similarly expect more.

[Lissa]

None of what either of you said changed the truth of what I said.  I repeat - People are certainly going to be buying a beta and should expect to heavily patch for a while.  Granted, given the structure of this system, it is hard to draw a line at which point the game can no longer be called beta.  Also, if you truly believe that the client is done, and will never require a patch, you have been living in a different gaming world than I.
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When I say the Client is done, I mean this is the version that is going on the CD, this is exactly what Blizzard has said. Also, whenever a MMORPG patches, it is always updating the client in some way, either adding new graphics files, closing holes that can be used for hacking or exploiting, and the like. What I said is correct, the client is done for release, what people have now is what is going on the CDs.

[Bolty]

We had a mini-discussion about this today -- about how you keep creating so many characters that you never see any of the high end content.  Of course, new patches will seem like they don't change things very much to you, because you keep going to the same areas over and over again and doing the same things over and over again.
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Mongo, Mongo. I know you like this game a lot. I think you're a bit too close to it as a result. Step back a bit and look at things critically.

Back in late August/early September I figured I'd create a char on the PvP server so that I could get a start before they implement their PvP system. This would let me test it out and get a feel for whether or not I'd want to play PvP or non-PvP for the release.

Months later, I'm still waiting. Consider this: WoW is going to ship with no PvP system. We're not talking about nit-picky little things that you find at the high-end game, which you claim I haven't experienced, although I have - zones with virtually no quests, unfinished ghost "towns" with no NPCs, broken quest events, etc. We're talking about a fundamental gameplay mechanic! One that drives the very core of the game on the PvP servers, and it's NOT DONE!

What else? Shall I care to mention? Warlocks last patch got a whole slew of new spells to use at the high-end (over char level 40), including such treats as a group fear spell. These new spells change the gameplay dynamic quite a bit, especially when PvP is factored in - yet, they're the only class to get this treatment. The other classes haven't gotten any love past level 40 - just more powerful versions of the same spells you've all gotten by level 30.

See, fact is, up to level 25-30 the game's awesome, and highly polished. This will let Blizzard fool a lot of newcomers into thinking the game's really finished. Until those level 25-30's start playing in the contested zones on a PvP server and encounter level 60 after level 60 ganking them night after night for kicks because there's no PvP system implemented. Until those level 25-30's start hitting the zones that are unfinished as they creep up in levels. Until those level 25-30's start seeing that there are no new spells to get anymore. Then the holes start to show.

You can add all the content, zones, monsters, items, hero classes, etc all you want after a game's release. That's not what I'm complaining about. What I'm complaining about is that core gameplay mechanics - the spells, talents, and balance of the characters, the very gameplay mechanic of PvP - has not been fleshed out. It took Blizzard FIVE patches to get the Mage right when the beta started. FIVE! Paladins and Hunters haven't even begun that process!

The argument that "WoW is better polished than any other MMORPG out there" is complete bunk. It is an attitude that has crept into the gaming conciousness like a plague and allows companies to get away with putting out crap before it's ready. I was so utterly stunned when people lined up in droves to play SWG. And once again, people will line up in droves to play WoW. I know it's not fair to compare SWG to WoW - World of Warcraft is light-years (pun intended) better than Star Wars Galaxies - but it's still NOT finished!

Please stop misinterpreting my statement of "not finished." I know MMORPGs are never finished. There's always new content to add. But before that process starts, you have to get the basic gameplay mechanics down pat. And that has not been done. The nerf bat will be swinging hard and often post-release, and the gamers will be incredibly unhappy. At least I can say "I told you so" this early.

All I can do is vote with my dollars. And WoW isn't getting them. Once again, another MMORPG will ask its userbase to pay to play a beta. And they will, perpetuating the chain...

-Bolty

Edit: I may just want to add: those who have been around for years know how I tend to gush about Blizzard games - that despite their flaws, they tend to be the most polished in the business. I stuck up for D2 even in the beginning when things are bad. You may want to take that into consideration when you see me bashing WoW. I loved this game up until November 3, 2004, when I learned it was coming out in less than 3 weeks. Why? Because each patch has helped make the game better overall, and it really looked like this would be one of the best games I had EVER played - in April-June of 2005, perhaps.

Oh well.

[Roland]

I guess that's the difference in our perceptions.  I don't think it's missing its most basic functions.  The game is pretty darned good *right now*.  In contrast, D2 was an awful broken game at the start, and D2:LoD was such a half-formed broken game that it disgusted me so much that I stopped playing it after two weeks and didn't come back until I heard about the 1.10 patch coming out. (imho, the 1.10 patch is what LoD should've been like in the first place).
I can't agree with you more there.  As I have stated before, I'm waiting until the patch to decide whether to buy the game.  If the hunter and paladin talents are reasonable and if the refinements to various zones pan out, then I'll buy the game.  The difference between me and some others here is that I'm actually optimistic, and I don't see the need for all of the apocalyptic pronouncements.  I've enjoyed playing the game heavily for over eight months and there's still a ton of it left for me to explore.  That's not an indication of a broken game to me.  It is certainly light-years beyond the brokeness of D2 and especially D2:LoD at their respective releases.
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You know, in all honesty, I don't even care if the Paladin / Hunter talents need refinement after the game is released, even if it's serious refinement. Just so long as they are THERE and WORKING I'll be happy. Things can always be changed after the fact, and I'm fine with that. I just don't want to buy the game only two find out that two of the 3 top characters on my list to play are gimped from day one, and probably will be for a month after release.

To me, not having each playable class complete, regardless of whether they need refinement, is rediculous and unnacceptable. HOW LONG did we live with MULTIPLE completely broken / useless skills on JUST the Assassin? How long was the Bow Bug around? I mean, come on, it's utterly absurd! I don't want to have to deal with that with WoW, ESPECIALLY since I'm paying monthly for this game.

If Paladin / Hunter talents need loads of tweaking after release, so be it. I'll be fine with that. Just so long as they EXIST IN THE GAME, and aren't completely pointless / broken. I, too, am eagerly waiting for the patch, and I'm trying to refrain from making any decisions about the future of WoW until that patch and until after release. But I will truly be beyond peeved if I buy a half-finished game with broken and/or missing basic elements. High-end content can wait a couple weeks; give me FULL access to my CHARACTER, the biggest element in the whole game. :P

[Lissa]

No. Not eveyone is gimped at level 12. Only Paladins and, to a lesser extent, Hunters. At least Hunters can manage aggro through ranged attacks. Paladins have NO such option! We have NO crowd control. We are GIMPED. Without a group, we can BARELY solo because we can't handle more than two monsters at a time!

I have no fear that as I progress through the levels, things will shape up. I also have no fear that when Talents are introduced, Paladins' powers will climb dramatically overnight. But that doesn't change the FACT that, as it stands right now, Paladins are gimped. :P

In other news, I finally got Resurrection. I LOVED that quest. I almost felt it was a little too short / easy, but it was still fun. I hope they have lots more class / profession-specific quests. It just totally adds to the RP value of the character. Maybe now I'll be able to help in groups more than standing back and healing while someone else takes the punishment (generally a "weaker" class, like a Priest!).

Edit:
I know all about MMOs. I play them all the time these days. I know how they work, and I know how they can be worked on after release. But you CANNOT RELEASE A BROKEN GAME! Imagine releasing D2 without only the first 3 Acts and only 4 out of 5 characters had skills. It's the same exact thing. It doesn't mean JACK that they can  patch to eternity after release. That's a given. What is "laughable" is your willingness to bow down and accept a wholly incomplete game that's missing the most BASIC functions!

I'm getting WoW at release, and I'm sure I will enjoy it (how long remains to be seen), but I am not going to stay quiet about a release without Paladin and Hunter talents. THAT is what is laughable.
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As a Pally, engineering is your friend...dynamite is a wonderful puller and allows the Pally to pull a single mob if done right instead of doing body pulls (which usually gets you more than you bargained for). This is why my Paladin in release is going Smith/Engineer with my Hunter doing the Mining. Being able to use the bombs from Engineer until one reaches Linkin's Boomerang is so helpful to a Pally (likewise, for a long time, the Engineer uses Copper and Bronze to level their skill in to the Expert range while the Smith typically is switching to Iron and Silver just before hitting Expert range).

[Lissa]

Mongo, Mongo.  I know you like this game a lot.  I think you're a bit too close to it as a result.  Step back a bit and look at things critically.

Back in late August/early September I figured I'd create a char on the PvP server so that I could get a start before they implement their PvP system.  This would let me test it out and get a feel for whether or not I'd want to play PvP or non-PvP for the release.

Months later, I'm still waiting.  Consider this: WoW is going to ship with no PvP system.  We're not talking about nit-picky little things that you find at the high-end game, which you claim I haven't experienced, although I have - zones with virtually no quests, unfinished ghost "towns" with no NPCs, broken quest events, etc.  We're talking about a fundamental gameplay mechanic!  One that drives the very core of the game on the PvP servers, and it's NOT DONE!

What else?  Shall I care to mention?  Warlocks last patch got a whole slew of new spells to use at the high-end (over char level 40), including such treats as a group fear spell.  These new spells change the gameplay dynamic quite a bit, especially when PvP is factored in - yet, they're the only class to get this treatment.  The other classes haven't gotten any love past level 40 - just more powerful versions of the same spells you've all gotten by level 30.

See, fact is, up to level 25-30 the game's awesome, and highly polished.  This will let Blizzard fool a lot of newcomers into thinking the game's really finished.  Until those level 25-30's start playing in the contested zones on a PvP server and encounter level 60 after level 60 ganking them night after night for kicks because there's no PvP system implemented.  Until those level 25-30's start hitting the zones that are unfinished as they creep up in levels.  Until those level 25-30's start seeing that there are no new spells to get anymore.  Then the holes start to show.

You can add all the content, zones, monsters, items, hero classes, etc all you want after a game's release.  That's not what I'm complaining about.  What I'm complaining about is that core gameplay mechanics - the spells, talents, and balance of the characters, the very gameplay mechanic of PvP - has not been fleshed out.  It took Blizzard FIVE patches to get the Mage right when the beta started.  FIVE!  Paladins and Hunters haven't even begun that process!

The argument that "WoW is better polished than any other MMORPG out there" is complete bunk.  It is an attitude that has crept into the gaming conciousness like a plague and allows companies to get away with putting out crap before it's ready.  I was so utterly stunned when people lined up in droves to play SWG.  And once again, people will line up in droves to play WoW.  I know it's not fair to compare SWG to WoW - World of Warcraft is light-years (pun intended) better than Star Wars Galaxies - but it's still NOT finished!

Please stop misinterpreting my statement of "not finished."  I know MMORPGs are never finished.  There's always new content to add.  But before that process starts, you have to get the basic gameplay mechanics down pat.  And that has not been done.  The nerf bat will be swinging hard and often post-release, and the gamers will be incredibly unhappy.  At least I can say "I told you so" this early.

All I can do is vote with my dollars.  And WoW isn't getting them.  Once again, another MMORPG will ask its userbase to pay to play a beta.  And they will, perpetuating the chain...

-Bolty

Edit: I may just want to add: those who have been around for years know how I tend to gush about Blizzard games - that despite their flaws, they tend to be the most polished in the business.  I stuck up for D2 even in the beginning when things are bad.  You may want to take that into consideration when you see me bashing WoW.  I loved this game up until November 3, 2004, when I learned it was coming out in less than 3 weeks.  Why?  Because each patch has helped make the game better overall, and it really looked like this would be one of the best games I had EVER played - in April-June of 2005, perhaps.

Oh well.
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First off, PvP in WoW isn't ment to be balanced on the 1 v 1 scale. It is ment to be balanced on the team v team scale. From what I have seen in the team v team scale, it is fairly well balanced. Likewise, I think you're not looking at PvP in the way Blizzard is intending...it's s'pose to be like rock-paper-scissors, which it mostly is (Rogues are anti-casters, Warriors are anti-Rogues, Casters are s'pose to be anti-Warrior [needs a little work here due to charge and stuns]). PvP is a bit better than what you think it is Bolty.

Which zones have you been in that have no quests? I've been to every open zone in the game and the only zone that doesn't have any NPCs or quests right now is Moonglade. Every zone you can go into has quests and NPCs. Some of the higher ones don't have as many as the lower ones, but the quests are definitely there and so are the NPCs. I think you've become jaded because you have looked at the quests surrounding places like Stranglethorn (and is a HUGE zone), which has a ton of quest, but haven't spent a great deal of time exploring places like Felwood, Winterspring, Hinterlands, Plaguelands (East and West), Burning Steppes, Searing Gorge, Ungoro Crater, or Blasted Lands (all of these areas have 10 or more quests each, they may not appear to have quests because you get the quests from other zones and go there).

As to the post 40 spells, we may see that in this patch. Remember, Blizzard has been internally beta testing atleast one patch ahead of us. We will have to wait and see what this upcoming patch does (it will probably be Sunday night/Monday during the day). There may be a great deal of changes coming and we have to wait and see what happens.

Back to your original contention though, WoW is in better shape for release than D2 or D2:LOD ever was. Will there be things broken on release, probably, will it be as doom and gloom as you think, probably not. Likewise, Blizzard will be continuing to work on WoW right up to the release date as there are lots of things than they can do behind the scenes and patch easily enough when the open the retail servers. 2 1/2 weeks may not seem like much time, but when you have people working round the clock, that adds up to an awful lot of manhours and a lot can be done given enough manhours when the framework is in place.

[FoxBat]

2 1/2 weeks may not seem like much time, but when you have people working round the clock, that adds up to an awful lot of manhours and a lot can be done given enough manhours when the framework is in place.
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It has *never* added up to bug-free and well-tested content from any game company I've ever seen, especially Blizzard. QA can be quite a slow process. An attempt to implement everything Bolty is talking about within 2 weeks would probably self-combust over all the sloppy bugs introduced. It will likely take more time to get things into place without being utterly useless/abusable and/or destroying the rest of the game world in the process with crashes, exploits and such.

[Lissa]

It has *never* added up to bug-free and well-tested content from any game company I've ever seen, especially Blizzard.  QA can be quite a slow process.  An attempt to implement everything Bolty is talking about within 2 weeks would probably self-combust over all the sloppy bugs introduced.  It will likely take more time to get things into place without being utterly useless/abusable and/or destroying the rest of the game world in the process with crashes, exploits and such.
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Except, the things Bolty is saying are problems I pointed out are not the problems he sees them as. He noted that PvP needs a lot of work, I don't see that given what Blizzard has said what their vision is for it (which is team PvP, not individual PvP). He also noted that there were a lot of unfinished zones with no quests, I've been to every zone in the game, while there are some quests that still need rewards, all quests work and NPCs are in all zone, the only two zones not in the game at the moment are Mount Hyjal (I so want to see Nordrassil) and Silithus while Moonglade needs be populated, but that will likely be an an area to get quests and not really do quests (it's mostly a Night Elf city almost the same size as Darnassus). I also noted that Blizzard internally has been one patch ahead of us, it is likely that we will see a number of things with this next patch involving spells, balancing, and the introduction of things.

I forsee these next two weeks being mostly fixing of bugs (they still have the nasty one involving the login server dropping out and leaving it so people cannot log on). They probably won't do a whole lot of adding new things, just balancing final things and squashing as many bugs as they can.

[Bolty]

First off, PvP in WoW isn't ment to be balanced on the 1 v 1 scale.  It is ment to be balanced on the team v team scale.
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I'm still being misinterpreted. The PvP system that I'm referring to isn't balance in terms of who fighting who - it's the gameplay mechanic of a rewards system for PvP.

Believe it or not, I find the PvP server more enjoyable to play on than the PvE server. However, the worst character levels to be at on the server right now are 25-35. At this level, you're forced to go into contested zones to do quests, and you are nothing but cannon fodder for high-level gankers. There is no POINT to PvP except to annoy others.

I use the example I've used in the past - an alliance group I was in was outsiede the Uldaman instance doing quests when a horde group came along. The room we were both in was filled with mobs. Both teams stared at each other for a bit. I remember thinking how it was like a nuclear arms race - if either team attacked the other, both groups would be wiped out. That was not in question. But sure enough, one player on one of the groups finally attacked, and a battle royale ensued that wiped out both groups (since during our fight, we woke up most of the mobs in the room). It was incredibly pointless - there's no REASON to actually engage in PvP except to annoy someone. And believe me, even if just 1 out of 100 players gets a kick out of annoying lowbie players, the contested zones will be packed with gankers.

There's an almost-legendary player named Khandahar (sp), a horde mage, who goes up to Redridge Mountains almost every night and just ganks low level chars. That's all he does. Night after night! Under a proper PvP system, he would be punished for this behavior because it is not honorable. Such a system does not exist. There's no reason or point to PvP at all, and thus all it encourages is ganking and corpse camping and other griefing activities.

PvP CAN be fun, that's what's so frustrating. The sheer enjoyment I got when I once went to the Shimmering Flats to deliver a quest as a level 38 Warlock. I was cashing in the quest when I noticed some text in my combat log indicating that a player was starting to cast a spell. I turned around and saw a troll shaman opening up a volley on me. The shaman was level 43 - a whole 5 levels higher than me.

I proceeded to OWN him. Casting Curse of Tongues, I increased his casting time by 50%, and sent my minion on in him to interrupt his spells more. I cast Fear on him and it took, forcing him to run around like a ninny while I set up my Damage Over Time spells on him and then blasted him into oblivion with Shadow Bolt. It was extremely satisfying. But it was also relatively pointless, since the graveyard is a 30-second run away. And 60 seconds later, he was back. He left me alone, too. :)

PvP can make doing quests fun. You're always watching your back. Quests of "go out and kill x of x" variety, while immensely dull on a PvE server, become a lot more interesting on the PvP server when you're in contested/enemy zones. This is why I planned to play on the PvP server. But all you get for it is aggravation without a reward system in place.

I've seen group assaults on towns. Take Thelsamar for example. A bunch of Horde dropped in and just started whacking townspeople. Any lowbies who dared to fight them got annihilated, and even when I joined the fray and killed two of them, the other three would whack me...and those 2 would just respawn right away since the graveyard is right next to the town. It was so pointless.

Duskwood is a gankfest every night, as high level horde players go to Raven Hill and gank the level 20's players there on a regular basis. How to deter them? You can't. Sure, you can go by and kill them with a party of alliance players set to defend the turf, but it becomes a battle of who has more time on their hands. You can't get rid of the horde player - he'll just come back and respawn and keep killing lowbies. So the only way to deter the player is to camp his corpse and grief him back.

Most players have better things to do than to counter-grief other players. Since there's no point, no reward, to defending your turf, it's just a GIGANTIC waste of time.

THIS is what I mean by no PvP system. It's a fundamental gameplay mechanic that is missing from the game - one that Blizzard's been promising for months now and hasn't delivered on - and when it's initially delivered, it will be buggy/have loopholes/stink, pending further refinement.

By the way, Blizzard HAS been working around the clock for near 8-9 months now. There's no magic thing that will happen in the next 2 1/2 weeks that will produce the patch that delivers everything bug-free. The game needed months yet to be ready.

-Bolty

[Lissa]

I'm still being misinterpreted.  The PvP system that I'm referring to isn't balance in terms of who fighting who - it's the gameplay mechanic of a rewards system for PvP.

Believe it or not, I find the PvP server more enjoyable to play on than the PvE server.  However, the worst character levels to be at on the server right now are 25-35.  At this level, you're forced to go into contested zones to do quests, and you are nothing but cannon fodder for high-level gankers.  There is no POINT to PvP except to annoy others.

I use the example I've used in the past - an alliance group I was in was outsiede the Uldaman instance doing quests when a horde group came along.  The room we were both in was filled with mobs.  Both teams stared at each other for a bit.  I remember thinking how it was like a nuclear arms race - if either team attacked the other, both groups would be wiped out.  That was not in question.  But sure enough, one player on one of the groups finally attacked, and a battle royale ensued that wiped out both groups (since during our fight, we woke up most of the mobs in the room).  It was incredibly pointless - there's no REASON to actually engage in PvP except to annoy someone.  And believe me, even if just 1 out of 100 players gets a kick out of annoying lowbie players, the contested zones will be packed with gankers.

There's an almost-legendary player named Khandahar (sp), a horde mage, who goes up to Redridge Mountains almost every night and just ganks low level chars.  That's all he does.  Night after night!  Under a proper PvP system, he would be punished for this behavior because it is not honorable.  Such a system does not exist.  There's no reason or point to PvP at all, and thus all it encourages is ganking and corpse camping and other griefing activities.

PvP CAN be fun, that's what's so frustrating.  The sheer enjoyment I got when I once went to the Shimmering Flats to deliver a quest as a level 38 Warlock.  I was cashing in the quest when I noticed some text in my combat log indicating that a player was starting to cast a spell.  I turned around and saw a troll shaman opening up a volley on me.  The shaman was level 43 - a whole 5 levels higher than me.

I proceeded to OWN him.  Casting Curse of Tongues, I increased his casting time by 50%, and sent my minion on in him to interrupt his spells more.  I cast Fear on him and it took, forcing him to run around like a ninny while I set up my Damage Over Time spells on him and then blasted him into oblivion with Shadow Bolt.  It was extremely satisfying.  But it was also relatively pointless, since the graveyard is a 30-second run away.  And 60 seconds later, he was back.  He left me alone, too.  :)

PvP can make doing quests fun.  You're always watching your back.  Quests of "go out and kill x of x" variety, while immensely dull on a PvE server, become a lot more interesting on the PvP server when you're in contested/enemy zones.  This is why I planned to play on the PvP server.  But all you get for it is aggravation without a reward system in place.

I've seen group assaults on towns.  Take Thelsamar for example.  A bunch of Horde dropped in and just started whacking townspeople.  Any lowbies who dared to fight them got annihilated, and even when I joined the fray and killed two of them, the other three would whack me...and those 2 would just respawn right away since the graveyard is right next to the town.  It was so pointless.

Duskwood is a gankfest every night, as high level horde players go to Raven Hill and gank the level 20's players there on a regular basis.  How to deter them?  You can't.  Sure, you can go by and kill them with a party of alliance players set to defend the turf, but it becomes a battle of who has more time on their hands.  You can't get rid of the horde player - he'll just come back and respawn and keep killing lowbies.  So the only way to deter the player is to camp his corpse and grief him back.

Most players have better things to do than to counter-grief other players.  Since there's no point, no reward, to defending your turf, it's just a GIGANTIC waste of time.

THIS is what I mean by no PvP system.  It's a fundamental gameplay mechanic that is missing from the game - one that Blizzard's been promising for months now and hasn't delivered on - and when it's initially delivered, it will be buggy/have loopholes/stink, pending further refinement.

By the way, Blizzard HAS been working around the clock for near 8-9 months now.  There's no magic thing that will happen in the next 2 1/2 weeks that will produce the patch that delivers everything bug-free.  The game needed months yet to be ready.

-Bolty
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What you're looking at isn't a PvP system Bolty, you are looking at a an anti-GRIEFING system which is what the whole honor system is all about. This is the crux of your arguement against PvP in WoW. Atleast Blizzard is trying to do something about it unlike most MMORPGs out there. Will Blizzard succeed in creating a worthwhile anti-griefing system, that is the real question. The only answer I can give to that is hopefully, but you can still run into griefers on PvE just as easily as you can on PvP (try doing the quests surrounding Darbie or Go'Shek farm some time on PvE and you'll see). Just because the anti-griefing system needs more work doesn't mean that PvP is badly implemented.

[nobbie]

According to the reports from various sources, WOW is already quite good compared to the competition like EQ2. But in the end, it all boils down to just one question: Are you willing to "beta-test" WOW for (at least) another 6 months while paying the full monthly fees already, or not. If yes, then buy WOW now - if not, wait another 6 months :)

[Iolair]

Who knows -- but I also find it hard to believe that the release of EQ2 isn't a strong factor, and that it may have forced their hand. I'm sure both SOE and Blizzard figure that many people will only choose between these games, and the one that has a head start can get a big advantage. A few weeks won't be a big deal, but 4 or 5 months would be.

Maybe Bliz has a lot of content up their sleeve, or maybe not, but I'm much more skeptical about EQ2's readiness than WoW's. It will be interesting to see what the reviews on EQ2 look like after they launch.
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I have been looking at both EQ2 and WoW for some time now. EQ2 has a couple of interesting things in their favor compared to WoW. EQ2 is released in America and Europe at the same time, whereas WoW won't be released in Europe for some time yet.
In EQ2 you can choose your server and you can play with your friends, whereever they are. In WoW you will be stuck on the servers Blizzard decides for you, americans can only play with americans, europeans can only play with europeans etc.

I personally believe the above factors can have a huge influence on what game people will buy. It made the choice for me.
And I should probably not say this, but EQ2 seems a lot more finished than WoW IMO.

[LavCat]

According to the reports from various sources, WOW is already quite good compared to the competition like EQ2. But in the end, it all boils down to just one question: Are you willing to "beta-test" WOW for (at least) another 6 months while paying the full monthly fees already, or not. If yes, then buy WOW now - if not, wait another 6 months :)
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This is just the way I look at it!

For me the choice was clear: I preorded my copy last week. I'd have a few more comments, but if you'll excuse me I am trying to make 60 by the 22nd....