There will be no real PvP system

[Bolty]

I'm very glad that I recommended to my fellow Lurkers to stay off the PvP servers at retail. See link:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...al&T=178465&P=1

While the honor system is actually in the game manual, it will never be implemented. Therefore, the ganking and griefing will be very prevalent on these servers, and it's just not worth it. Blizzard continues to say that Battlegrounds will be on ALL server types, so you can still get your PvP action on a Normal server.

Thus, PvP remains fairly pointless - from my months of play on the PvP server in closed beta, I found that 80-90% of all fights are unwinnable for one of the participants due to level difference, and actual PvP fighting really has no point because nothing is gained by either side.

Of course, there are many players who, hoping for an honor system to be implemented post-release, started out on PvP servers. That's a decision that, had I purchased on opening day, I would have struggled with as well. Now that Blizzard has finally come forth and stated that an honor system won't be implemented that stops griefers, these players want out, and they can't transfer.

I had written in my Server Type Decision thread:

IF Battlegrounds are implemented as Blizzard says they will be, they'll exist on all server types, meaning that Normal server players can get their PvP jollies all they want once they reach the end-game. If that's the case, you may ask yourself why bother with a PvP server when I can level up to 60 on a Normal and THEN go for the fights when I'm bored?

That's what I'm asking myself, too. With no honor or reward system, and a promise of a PvP raid area for all server types, I can't see any reason to recommend PvP servers to Lurkers. Although some of the advantages of PvP servers (as listed above) are *very* nice, they generally don't outweigh the nasty disadvantages.

I hope some of you took my advice and aren't stuck on a server that will get pretty nasty in a month or two if you're not one of the level 50+ chars out there. Even still, adventuring in areas such as Stranglethorn Vale just isn't interesting when you can't quest without being attacked all the time, especially when going to town.

In the end, PvP servers will simply be PK and griefing servers, and it's a shame. Based on the initial statements from Blizzard, I had high hopes of an exciting gameplay style that would make the levelling up process more interesting, but I know from my beta days that the interesting moments were too few and far between.

-Bolty

[Assur]

Hi

It seems that Blizzard has learned NOTHING from all the PK/griefing debates that D2 spawned. I'm certainly registering on a PvE server once I hold Wow in my greedy little hands :wub:

good karma

[NuurAbSaal]

:(

While I share your regret over the loss of a useful implementation of the Honor system, I'm afraid even harsh honor penalties for ganking lowbies would have done little to very little to stop people from griefing others. That Blizzard gave up on even trying to discourage it in the WoW is pathetic nonetheless (imho).

The Honor system sounded cool, time will tell if there will be anything to lure me onto a PvP server come EU release now...

Mongos take on things would interest me greatly too :)

Throm-Ka!
(getting into WoW mood as arrival of Beta key should be imminent :w00t:)

Nuur

[Rinnhart]

Thus, PvP remains fairly pointless - from my months of play on the PvP server in closed beta, I found that 80-90% of all fights are unwinnable for one of the participants due to level difference, and actual PvP fighting really has no point because nothing is gained by either side.
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There's no "point" to playing the game at all, Bolty.

The griefers will grief, the whiners will whine. An honor system wouldn't have changed much.

[Occhidiangela]

I'm very glad that I recommended to my fellow Lurkers to stay off the PvP servers at retail.  See link:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...al&T=178465&P=1

While the honor system is actually in the game manual, it will never be implemented.  Therefore, the ganking and griefing will be very prevalent on these servers, and it's just not worth it.  Blizzard continues to say that Battlegrounds will be on ALL server types, so you can still get your PvP action on a Normal server.

Thus, PvP remains fairly pointless - from my months of play on the PvP server in closed beta, I found that 80-90% of all fights are unwinnable for one of the participants due to level difference, and actual PvP fighting really has no point because nothing is gained by either side.

Of course, there are many players who, hoping for an honor system to be implemented post-release, started out on PvP servers.  That's a decision that, had I purchased on opening day, I would have struggled with as well.  Now that Blizzard has finally come forth and stated that an honor system won't be implemented that stops griefers, these players want out, and they can't transfer.

I had written in my Server Type Decision thread:
I hope some of you took my advice and aren't stuck on a server that will get pretty nasty in a month or two if you're not one of the level 50+ chars out there.  Even still, adventuring in areas such as Stranglethorn Vale just isn't interesting when you can't quest without being attacked all the time, especially when going to town.

In the end, PvP servers will simply be PK and griefing servers, and it's a shame.  Based on the initial statements from Blizzard, I had high hopes of an exciting gameplay style that would make the levelling up process more interesting, but I know from my beta days that the interesting moments were too few and far between.

-Bolty
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Looks as though Saxywoo's series of questions here during the beta identified the obstacles to overcome, and Blizz, for the moment, has chosen not to put forth the effort to solve those rather thorny issues. Pity.

Occhi

[Munkay]

We feel that the honor system that will eclipse the need for a PvP penalty system. If you can get rewards, and rank from killing a similar level character, why waste time killing lower level characters?

:wacko:

[Skandranon]

I'm a little disappointed, but you have to appreciate Blizzard's point of view on the issue. Blizzard's official positive-reinforcement-only policy makes it sound like they naively fail to understand the motivations of griefers, but Tyren's responses show that they understand more than they let on. They get that there's only one thing you can do against hardcore griefers, and they've already done it - PvE servers.

The solutions that are being suggested are either as full of loopholes as the original policy or are uselessly complicated. You can't make a policy that allows for nonconsensual PvP and which simultaneously locks out griefing behaviour. Serious griefers don't care whether they die, or how much time they spend, as long as they kill their target once and ruin their day. The problem isn't the system, it's the people, and Blizzard really can't do anything about the people.

[Treesh]

Personally, I think a lot of this comes from the fact that there are still quite a few folks at Blizzard who are griefers themselves. Not all of them left in the mass departures however long ago.

[Artega]

What, exactly, does this mean? The post referenced seemed to indicate that there would be rewards for PvP, but no "honor system" to prevent those rewards from being reaped by camping lowbie areas (i.e. take your LV40 character slaughter everything in sight at lowbie areas.) Is this what they were referring to? If so, I'm definitely ditching PvP servers.

Oh, there's a new smiley, too: :shuriken:

[Skandranon]

What, exactly, does this mean?  The post referenced seemed to indicate that there would be rewards for PvP, but no "honor system" to prevent those rewards from being reaped by camping lowbie areas (i.e. take your LV40 character slaughter everything in sight at lowbie areas.)  Is this what they were referring to?  If so, I'm definitely ditching PvP servers.

You misunderstand. The honor system will eventually (so they say) be added so that you can get material reward by killing NPCs and players of similar level. The problem is that there was also supposed to be a penalty, "dishonor" for killing low-level PCs. This penalty was removed. So you won't be penalized for ganking and griefing, just not rewarded.

[MongoJerry]

Mongos take on things would interest me greatly too :)

My take was that this post by Blizzard wasn't news. Bolty's take on this post, however, leaves me puzzled.

While the honor system is actually in the game manual, it will never be implemented.

I'm going to have to pull one of these on you, Bolty. Did you actually read the post you're commenting on? There's lots of stuff there about an upcoming honor system.

However, I gather that what you mean is that you wanted a dishonor system to punish high level characters for killing low level characters. I feared the implementation of such a system far more than I feared the current griefing system, and the comments by Blizzard developers on this issue reassure me that they do in fact know what they're talking about. A dishonor system would have simply implemented a different kind of griefing -- one where low level characters take advantage of the system to grief higher level characters.

I will simply quote Tyren's responses to questions and comments made by other players:

The introduction of a PvP penalty system opens the doors to many "what if" situations.

Lets say theres a mass PvP raid with players of all levels. Are you forced to watch who you are attacking for fear that killing those players will result in a penalty?

What if a lower level player is walking around buffing players who do not have a PvP flag. So lets say he sits there and buffs people prior to fights and after they rezz. You cannot touch that person because they are not flagged for PvP.

What if a lower level player decides it'd be fun to follow you around everywhere but not attack you to make a nuisance of himself.

The system is currently very wide open. But it's a more natural system of PvP, rather than try to figure out who you can attack and who you can't and what are the consequences.

How about adding a deity (and resultant deity faction) for every race where each deity has the power to remove a portion of a character's experience (and even lose a level) for defying that deity by engaging a sufficiently lower-level player. The only time this wouldn't happen is if the low-level player (or his group) attacks the higher player.

True, it would be the only source of losing XP, but I can guarantee you people would think twice before engaging...unless they want to be level 1 again... :)

This would effectively discourage any average player from participating in raids, for fear that during large fights they kill a player out of their range. A group of very low level players could harass higher level players who cannot attack them for fear of either losing EXP or if they attack the lower level player, getting attacked back by other lower level players who could kill him with impunity.

Tyren,
See this is where tweaking comes in...IF that lowbee gets invovled in the raid he should be marked as honorable points maybe very little but worth killing even for 1 point. Create a level range for the the color system.

If I am solo and get caught in the middle of two big parties going at it....i should be that odd ball discolored name that shouldnt be targeted...lets say GREY.....and all red names are Honorable kills. The second I heal or attack a member in a PVP situation my name should go red for the duration of my time in that zone till death or leaving the area.

But then you introduce baiting.

Assuming you can see color codes in big fights (sometimes that's harder than you think), the lower level player will ALWAYS have to take initiative, since the average higher level player would never attack first for fear of a penalty.

Or, you could get a very low player with a very high level partner hiding in the wings. The low level player hits a passerby who retaliates and is now flagged for PvP. The high level partner swoops in and kills the passerby. Thus this would also be considered ganking.

The concept is that players believe a punishment system prevents "ganking". It does nothing of the sort. It makes the worst gankers think up and new creative ways to avoid the penalty system or cause penalties on the players they are targeting.

I've said this before, but the assumption that a penalty system will stop ganking, griefing, etc, is ill-conceived.

If a player is dedicated enough to camp your corpse and kill you repeatedly, a penalty system would not deter such a player.

The notion that we don't care about ganking is incorrect. Our point is that a penalty system does not address ganking. It only creates more avenues for exploitation.

In reality a penalty system gives rise to griefing and baiting. A penalty system would discourage PvP rather than make it more fair across the board.

I 100% agree and couldn't say it better.

As far as what we can expect to see with the honor system or any new system, my position is and has always been to wait and see it in game. The idea is not to take on the herculean task of trying to eliminate ganking/griefing entirely but to lessen the frequency of it. A lot of the ganking and griefing is done by people who are level capped and bored. If a system is in place that motivates people to keep playing in the higher level areas and/or fight high level players, then it will lessen the frequency of ganking and griefing.

At least, that's the idea. Now, let's wait and see what the actual implementation is like.

[Artega]

I got ganked tonight by six LV ?? Alliance while running to Tarren Mill for my Call of Water quest, and though the ensuing counter of seventeen Horde of varying levels was very fun (DIE LITTLE SQUISHY GNOMES, DIE!), it made me realize that I'm not going to be frequenting PvP servers very often.

Raiding and killing PCs is a lot of fun, but getting ganked when all you want to do is quest isn't, and the (dis)honor system will only make this behavior worse.

I'll be moving to the Azjol-Nerub PvE server (as it has a low server load), and will be making an Orc (Defensive) Warrior. I will still be continuing my Shaman on Magtheridon, but at a very much reduced pace.

[MongoJerry]

Thus, PvP remains fairly pointless - from my months of play on the PvP server in closed beta, I found that 80-90% of all fights are unwinnable for one of the participants due to level difference, and actual PvP fighting really has no point because nothing is gained by either side.

Nothing is gained, except fun. For my part, I'm having a load of fun right now on the PvP server that I would never have on a PvE server. I've participated in pushing back several raids on Splintertree Outpost in Ashenvale and have joined horde parties to hunt down alliance parties who have hunted down horde parties...

I've also experienced a lot of the commraderie that both you and I have mentioned that comes from complete strangers looking out for one another. For example, a level 34 warrior attacked my level 30 priestess in Thousand Needles today. I did pretty well but was obviously going to barely lose (possibly a mutual death), and then a level 24 undead warlock came along, feared the warrior, and tipped the scales in my favor. And I've experienced the fun that comes from walking upon a fight scene and tipping the scales in favor of someone else.

Now, I know what you're afraid of, and I recognize it's legitimacy. You're afraid that after several months, there will be a huge population of level 60's who will have nothing better to do than to grief all the lowbies. But you know what? The PvP server had been around for several months, and I still had a blast leveling up my hunter from scratch. I still had fun with a small party defending Nesingwary's Expedition from horde griefers. And when I wanted to get away from all the PvP action, there were huge wide open low population territories out there where I could quest largely unmolested. And, of course, instances are completely free from PvP action.

The main question for what the PvP servers will be like months from now is: Will the high level content in the game then be good enough and fresh enough to keep the level capped players from getting bored? If the answer is, "no," then the situation on the PvP server is going to deteriorate quickly. If the answer is, "yes," then things will be fine.

But then again, the same question can be asked on the PvE server. If the answer is, "no," then people will stop playing the game, because there will be nothing more to do. At least on the PvP server, people can make their own entertainment like the constant Tarren Mills--Southshore battles that pervaded the last couple months of the beta.

It's this reason that I think Blizzard is going in the right direction in that they are adding positive content to encourage high-level players to stay in the higher level zones. Will the content be good enough to be effective? We'll have to wait and see. But Blizzard's decision not to add penalties to PvP was the correct decision.

[Tal]

Personally, I think a lot of this comes from the fact that there are still quite a few folks at Blizzard who are griefers themselves.  Not all of them left in the mass departures however long ago.
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That would be Geoff Fraizer and his Zerglings. ;)

With the reputatoin that Kali-Compton has already established from Beta I forsee folks forming raiding parties to seek out and kill Kali's parties.

[Treesh]

I've also experienced a lot of the commraderie that both you and I have mentioned that comes from complete strangers looking out for one another.  For example, a level 34 warrior attacked my level 30 priestess in Thousand Needles today.  I did pretty well but was obviously going to barely lose (possibly a mutual death), and then a level 24 undead warlock came along, feared the warrior, and tipped the scales in my favor.  And I've experienced the fun that comes from walking upon a fight scene and tipping the scales in favor of someone else.

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I've had that on just the normal servers, except it was during multiple NPCs on 1 PC fights rather than PvP. Someone got swarmed, started freight training them back to others, I heal the guy running, critters then aggro on me, the original guy comes back and helps me not die from being swarmed by what swarmed him. It's happened a few times now. One of these times it's going to kill me trying to help someone out like that, but it's still fun.

[Quark]

I agree with both Bolty and MongoJerry in their posts. It is dissapointing that Blizzard doesn't have some sort of penalty for griefers, but I don't know how that penalty itself would be fair. I don't think it's fair for anyone to criticize Blizzard's lack of penalty until a clearcut way that won't have any loopholes is presented.

My point to the entire thread is: the EULA contains warnings about greifing and ganking, right? There's a simple way to, if not prevent, then lessen greifing. Ban/Suspend the accounts of griefers. So do your part: report the griefers. Bug Blizzard until they do something about a griefer. Blizzard's response will tell you more than a 'dishonor' system will. If Blizzard chooses to not deal with even the worst people, we will know how bad PvP can get.

(For now on PvE, but I want at least one character on PvP)
Quark

[Bolty]

I'm going to have to pull one of these on you, Bolty. Did you actually read the post you're commenting on? There's lots of stuff there about an upcoming honor system.

However, I gather that what you mean is that you wanted a dishonor system to punish high level characters for killing low level characters.
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Mongo, while it may look on the outside like it's not so, I do enjoy our sparring here. :)

I realize the extreme difficulty that comes with attempting to discourage griefing and why Blizzard chose eventually not to try. However, what has me upset at them is that they promised this system for a good six months, even to include information about it in the manual, and then 2 weeks after release say "ah, forget it." They left many PvP'ers high and dry. I started playing the PvP server during closed beta because I wanted to get a char built up a bit before they put the system in...and waited, and waited, and waited, and it never came.

I've already posted my observations about the PvP server, and hyped it up a bit too, because I felt that with the honor/dishonor system put in place, it would be more fun than PvE. I'd have rather seen more of my fellow Lurkers to group with on the same server as me, of course. Now I have to turn around and advise people to go the other way, which annoys me.

You forget how many exploratory/see-everything type of players we have here, Mongo. Without an anti-griefing system in place, that style of play simply can't be done. You know, in closed beta I never finished quests in a number of areas because they were camped by griefers on a nightly basis. I can only imagine the average Lurker's reaction after trying to complete the upper-end elite quests in the Redridge Mountains only to be ganked and corpse camped for five straight nights by griefers there. It happened to me. The same scenario played out in Duskwood, Hillsbrad, Alterac Mountains, and other zones.

The solutions?

1) Try to find a less camped zone.
2) Try to get on at different times of the day, since the griefing is greatest at primetime (which is when I get to play, so that's out).

Some say, "just ask a high level for help!" This doesn't work. Why?

Because griefers live to grief you. They aren't deterred by getting killed. After all, the same rules that allow you to keep coming back for a corpse camp apply to the griefer as well. So a high-level group comes by and smacks down the griefer. So what? In 2-3 minutes, they're back. Thus, and here's the key point, the only way to stop a griefer is to grief them back. In other words, you have to be just as big a jerk to the jerk. You have to devote your entire night of play to harrassing a griefer. Since nobody's willing to do that, the griefing just goes on and on and on and on. Don't tell me you never heard of Khandahar - he was a practically legendary griefer who spent every night in Duskwood and Redrige Mountains griefing lowbies. No amount of killing ever deterred him.

And now there's nothing stopping him. Ever! An "Honor" system won't deter him. That kind of player is the 1% of the population that simply plays a game to annoy others. Killing him has no point to it. And much like RL, it's the 1% who ruin it for everyone else.

See, I enjoyed the PvP server. I won fights, I lost fights, and it was fun. But those memories of repeated gankings and griefings by that tiny, tiny minority of players is why I didn't buy this game. I want to play on PvP, I really do. But without any way to stop that 1%, the aggravation and annoyance of losing hours of playing time being forced to move somewhere else or just plain banging your head against the proverbial wall really spoils it for me. You have managed to avoid most of the problem by staying on top of or with the general level curve both times. While I'm aware you started a new Hunter, it's a lot different getting beat up on with your alt than suffering the irritating of constant murdering of your main character.

-Bolty

[Malakar]

My point to the entire thread is: the EULA contains warnings about greifing and ganking, right?  There's a simple way to, if not prevent, then lessen greifing.  Ban/Suspend the accounts of griefers.  So do your part: report the griefers.  Bug Blizzard until they do something about a griefer.
Quark
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This might work for a few griefers, but not for most. It'd have to be based on the number of unique reports, so only the most dedicated griefers would get punished. Otherwise it'd open the door for abuse of false reports for account suspensions/bans.

So, it might help with the infamous griefers, but not with the random encounters with people much higher level than you.

Problem is, though, that Blizzard can only do so much manually. It might not be enough to make much of a difference given the massive numbers of players. If they were to automate it, that opens up the possibility of potential security issues. It'd be risky, what if there were security exploits that allowed someone to ban whomever they choose?

[Occhidiangela]

This might work for a few griefers, but not for most. It'd have to be based on the number of unique reports, so only the most dedicated griefers would get punished. Otherwise it'd open the door for abuse of false reports for account suspensions/bans.

So, it might help with the infamous griefers, but not with the random encounters with people much higher level than you.

Problem is, though, that Blizzard can only do so much manually. It might not be enough to make much of a difference given the massive numbers of players. If they were to automate it, that opens up the possibility of potential security issues. It'd be risky, what if there were security exploits that allowed someone to ban whomever they choose?
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OK, so why are GM's paid to do their job? Unregulated realms Bnet had. GM's are required by their job title to exercise judgement. The going in contract the players have is, if you are a jagov, you can get banned. That much I read in the "I agree" documents on sign up.

Occhi

[MongoJerry]

You forget how many exploratory/see-everything type of players we have here, Mongo.  Without an anti-griefing system in place, that style of play simply can't be done.  You know, in closed beta I never finished quests in a number of areas because they were camped by griefers on a nightly basis.  I can only imagine the average Lurker's reaction after trying to complete the upper-end elite quests in the Redridge Mountains only to be ganked and corpse camped for five straight nights by griefers there.  It happened to me.  The same scenario played out in Duskwood, Hillsbrad, Alterac Mountains, and other zones.

I'm too tired tonight to do a full response, so I'll just focus on this piece of what you said. A document that really openned my eyes to the world of players in these kinds of games is this one linked here. It was originally written for MUD's, but the concepts apply to games like WoW, which are glorified MUD's:

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm

One of the things it discusses is the fact that explorer-type personalities like Lurkers tend to be would actually tend to be the least bothered by player killers, because we as explorers tend to range off into distant lands, while player killers like to stay in zones with a high concentration of potential victims. This is very true of WoW, where there are certain zones that have a high concentration of ganking and yet when one travels outside of those zones, the frequency of ganking and griefing drops off precipitously. Which areas are the worst? Why, precisely the ones you mentioned -- Hillsbrad, Alterac, and I'll add Stranglethorn Vale to that. Redridge and Duskwood on occation as players come up from Stranglethorn Vale, (but I would add that I saw plenty of defence of those two zones as well when I ventured in them with my hunter). Venture outside those zones and you'll see very little of that griefing by level capped players that you complain so much about.

This gets back to the problem I've discussed with you several times -- about how you kept on creating new characters and never saw any of the higher end content. Of course you saw a lot of griefing -- because you kept starting new characters and throwing yourself at the zones where the most griefing occured! Once you hit level 30, you have lots of places -- both outdoors and in instance dungeons -- where you can quest and explore without fear of the worst gankers. Once you hit level 40, you're going to be adventuring in zones where the griefers don't tread and even if one griefer or a group of griefers did come to one zone, you'll have so many places you could go instead -- or so many places to disappear to within a given zone -- that it wouldn't matter.

Now, of course, you're going to run into the occational skirmish, but that's not what we're talking about here. After all, if you never want to fight members of the opposing faction, then you wouldn't play on the PvP server in the first place. But when it comes to the big assholes like that level 60 mage who kept running around the lake in Redridge (as if a dishonor system would have stopped him), us exploration Lurkers would actually fare quite well on PvP servers.