PvP on PvE Stormrage

[Sword_of_Doom]

Just finished about 3 hours of PvP in Southshore, joining 15 to 20 Alliance battling Horde. I fought alongside a 60 Warrior, 55 Mage, and 53 priest (i am only 34) and just had a great time crushing the Horde. It was great to focus on one of their ?? (I am guessing that is 60?). I am very interested to here how things are going on Tichondrius and wondering is it worth it for me to start up a character there? PvP was much more enjoyable than i ever could have imagined (i never PvP in Diablo 2, felt it was a waste of my time). Also, some of us were wondering, is it theoretically possible to take over a Horde city and have Alliance guards and npc's spawn there?


Stormrage
34 Paladin Niniuin
27 Priest Tutelin

[Raziel]

I was in on that (37 Hunter - Thorla - Stormrage - The Basin). It was hilarious.

I became involved when I saw a wounded troll rogue snap out of invis and crit backstab a hunter. I concussed him then blew him away - a cheap kill that got me PvP flagged.

Then it was mayhem. I managed not to die.

At one point, somebody trained at least five level ?? elite con-skull deathguards all the way from Tarren Mill into Southshore. The Southshore guards jumped on them and a MASSIVE fight ensued in the centre of town, with literally dozens of guards spawning. Eventually the invading guards got smacked down, and basically the entire town sprinted north on this huge counterattack. We met in a field north of SS and battled a while, but I had to go and finish a quest so I bailed out of that mess, sprinting down the road to RP as fast as my wussy legs could carry me.

I have screenies of the deathguard incident and the masses of skeletons.

[Tal]

Also, some of us were wondering, is it theoretically possible to take over a Horde city and have Alliance guards and npc's spawn there?
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Not at present.

So far on Stormrage Sharanna is 3-0 versus the Horde. Two of those victories were chain victories meaning the second showed up as I was halfway through the first. I had been tooling around Stonetalon when a hunter came up to me and started taunting me. In response I turned on PvP and he got off a concussive shot. But once I recovered I closed melee distance while ignoring the pet and fought the hunter down to half health when a higher level warrior charged me. I tend to avoid using divine protection or blessing of protection in PvP but I necessarily needed to with this battle. Once I finished the hunter I turned on the warrior after healing and made quicker work of him. The third victory was when Roane inadvertently got tagged for PvP in Stonetalon when her pet defended her against a horde guard there. A troll warrior decided to take that opportunity (when she was getting pounded on by the guard) to attack her as I ran past. I turned, slapped him with my big axe and he started retreating. I cast seal of justice but didn't judge it in time to stop the warrior from running. He almost made it to the safety of the town when I got him with Fist of Justice and finished him off. I then had to run because the two horde guards were charging. :wacko:

I'm sure soon enough the balance will swing again... ;)

[MongoJerry]

I am very interested to here how things are going on Tichondrius and wondering is it worth it for me to start up a character there? PvP was much more enjoyable than i ever could have imagined (i never PvP in Diablo 2, felt it was a waste of my time).

I'm enjoying playing on Tichondrius tremendously and I hope that many more Lurkers will take the plunge to play there. I am actively forming the basis for a "How to Play on a PvP Server and Have More Fun" guide in my head, but until I get it written down sufficiently well in electronic form, I'll just have to give a summary: PvP can be extremely fun. However, there can be frustrations. For example, it's very tough right now for Horde to get and turn in quests at Nesingwary's Expedition, because of how many Alliance players there are in the area. You have to accept that you're going to die on random occations due to some player or players you hadn't seen. And you have to accept that at times, you're going to have to work on a different quest series than you might have planned to work on. Still, if you group up, have a little bit of a thick skin, have a little flexibility, and join in on the PvP aspects of the game, the fun on a PvP server can easily outweigh the negatives. And the higher you level, the more fun you have. I hope to see more Lurkers on Tichondrius!

[Bolty]

I am actively forming the basis for a "How to Play on a PvP Server and Have More Fun" guide in my head, but until I get it written down sufficiently well in electronic form, I'll just have to give a summary...
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Mongo, don't you mean "How to Play on a PvP Server and Have Fun, No Matter What Bolty Says"? :)

Sword_of_Doom, to answer your original question, your PvP experience is an example of the "good" part of PvP - having fun raiding an enemy town and battling other humans. What you will experience on a PvP server *most* of the time is the "bad" part, however, as you try to complete a quest only to be smacked down by a random passing-by level 60 in one hit. This will keep happening until you reach high levels yourself. Whether or not you're willing to put up with that will determine how much fun you can have on a PvP server. Once you reach high levels, the end game is undoubtedly more interesting because ganking is no longer a factor - everyone's the same level as you or lower.

This is what I kept hearing from PvE'rs during the beta - that there is in fact plenty of PvP on the PvE servers - but the key thing is that you can do it when YOU want to, not when someone else decides to.

-Bolty

[Treesh]

This is what I kept hearing from PvE'rs during the beta - that there is in fact plenty of PvP on the PvE servers - but the key thing is that you can do it when YOU want to, not when someone else decides to.

-Bolty
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With the exception of things like Mind Control that can force you into PvP whether you want to or not. ;)

[Raziel]

This is what I kept hearing from PvE'rs during the beta - that there is in fact plenty of PvP on the PvE servers - but the key thing is that you can do it when YOU want to, not when someone else decides to.

-Bolty
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Yep, you're right on. This is why i'm on a PvE server. If I want to get involved in PvP, it's my decision. On more occasions than I can be bothered counting, i've stood to the side and watched a huge PvP war go on. Last night there was about 50 Horde guys chasing some poor Paladin on horseback all the way down into Ratchet, along the docks, and they nabbed him at the end of the dock just before the ship arrived. Then all 50 got on the boat, insane lag, which caused the thing to promptly crash and deposit most of them in the water off Booty Bay or send them on a wierd round trip from Ratchet to Ratchet.

But the best part is that I could simply stand there and watch a huge fight take place, rather than run and hide.

I hear they're fixing the mind control thing next patch.

[Bolty]

With the exception of things like Mind Control that can force you into PvP whether you want to or not. ;)
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I have no doubt this will be fixed soon. They're not dumb enough to leave this exploit around for too long until everyone's doing it, even though most griefers will select the PvP server type and not be on the PvE servers to try it.

For endless going-around-in-circles discussion about this very issue, there are plenty of examples raging in the Blizzard forums. One of the arguments that keeps arising that I didn't consider before is that many people new to WoW aren't aware that there can be PvP on a "Normal" server, and thus chose PvP servers because they believed they were the only servers that would allow *any* PvP at all. I would not be surprised to see that, over time, the PvP servers slowly but surely reduce in population as word spreads that you can have just as much fun (town raids, etc) over on the Normal servers, but without all the pointless ganking, corpse camping, and griefing. This would be equivalent to the situation described in that article Mongo linked to where the population of "Killers" just simply drives off everyone else, and the server population implodes.

With Battlegrounds implementing PvP rewards on a PvE server, it becomes even more pointless...

-Bolty

[Treesh]

I have no doubt this will be fixed soon.  They're not dumb enough to leave this exploit around for too long until everyone's doing it, even though most griefers will select the PvP server type and not be on the PvE servers to try it.

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Yes, it'll be fixed. It's just the "soon" part that I have zero faith in. Blizzard has said they want to make it so tagged mobs can't be mind controlled (and the same for the other skills that work like that), but when they actually get around to it and what other bugs will be introduced with the "fix" is the problem. Yes, this isn't the same group of people at Blizzard who worked on "fixing" D2. Yes, warcraft and starcraft were fixed much better. Still doesn't mean I have to blindly accept that they'll get around to fixing everything in a timely manner and do it all completely right.

[LavCat]

Just finished about 3 hours of PvP in Southshore, joining 15 to 20 Alliance battling Horde.
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Tribade was in on that for several hours. I must say it was more fun than she could ever have imagined. Very, very unlike PvE. The front lines seemed to be mages and hunters mainly, with healers in the rear. The hunters of both sides would send their large cats in to try to break the line. Rogues would go behind the lines to try to take out the healers.

On a related subject, last night I fought my very first duel ever. Totally by accident. Fafner thought someone was inviting her to join a party. He hit me, so I hit him with my axe. He healed, so I hit him with my axe again. I won.

[LavCat]

Yep, you're right on.  This is why i'm on a PvE server.  If I want to get involved in PvP, it's my decision.  On more occasions than I can be bothered counting, i've stood to the side and watched a huge PvP war go on.  Last night there was about 50 Horde guys chasing some poor Paladin on horseback all the way down into Ratchet, along the docks, and they nabbed him at the end of the dock just before the ship arrived.  Then all 50 got on the boat, insane lag, which caused the thing to promptly crash and deposit most of them in the water off Booty Bay or send them on a wierd round trip from Ratchet to Ratchet.

But the best part is that I could simply stand there and watch a huge fight take place, rather than run and hide.

I hear they're fixing the mind control thing next patch.
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I have a question about this. From what I read in beta, the town guards in a neutral city (like Ratchet) would join in the attack (since, as Blizzard says, it is bad for business), and the perpetrators would lose honor in all goblin areas.

In beta I was honored in the goblin areas and I would not have jeopardized that to engage in this kind of PvP. Are horde stupid, or has Blizzard changed how honor works?

[Rinnhart]

I have a question about this.  From what I read in beta, the town guards in a neutral city (like Ratchet) would join in the attack (since, as Blizzard says, it is bad for business), and the perpetrators would lose honor in all goblin areas.

In beta I was honored in the goblin areas and I would not have jeopardized that to engage in this kind of PvP.  Are horde stupid, or has Blizzard changed how honor works?
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Blizzard has said they won't be implementing a PVP "dishonor" system, so I'd assume that's not true.

EDIT: If you kill the guards you do lose standing, of course.

[Ruvanal]

I have a question about this.  From what I read in beta, the town guards in a neutral city (like Ratchet) would join in the attack (since, as Blizzard says, it is bad for business), and the perpetrators would lose honor in all goblin areas.

In beta I was honored in the goblin areas and I would not have jeopardized that to engage in this kind of PvP.  Are horde stupid, or has Blizzard changed how honor works?
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The problem is that the honor system as it is implemented currently was designed for the use in what Blizzard is planing for the Battlegrounds. In those cases there will be better control over what levels can even participate in the scenarios.

For a case like Ratchet or Booty Bay, the level of the guards is somewhat lower than the level of the players causing the problems. Throw in that a higher level character could gank-kill a lower level player quickly, then avoid direct contact with the guards and jump in the water and loose the guards aggro in about a minute, it is easy to do what is described frequently in these places.

Various fixes to this would be to
Not have the guards loose aggro until the perpetrator is dead or at least one zone area away.

Up the levels of the guards.

Have the guards active more guards in larger radius areas based on the level of the player they are aggroing on. I.E. a guard reacting to a level 60 threat would activate a call for help in twice the radius as it would if the threat was a level 30.

Use more than the 'standard' warrior model for what is stationed around a city for guards. This is something I had spotted needed to be done in PnP Games over 25 years ago; guards that are only warrior/fighter models will almost alway loose to a player type group, but a guard group that has a few non-warrior types could often stop players much more easily.

[MongoJerry]

I would not be surprised to see that, over time, the PvP servers slowly but surely reduce in population as word spreads that you can have just as much fun (town raids, etc) over on the Normal servers, but without all the pointless ganking, corpse camping, and griefing.

Um, no you can't. What pisses me off about your posts, Bolty, is that you act as an expert on a subject that you in fact did not experience yourself. Yes, you "played" on a PvP server but you kept starting your characters over and over again and playing in the same areas over and over again, so you never got to see a much wider world. In addition, you mostly played in areas like Redridge or Duskwood, alliance areas designated as "contested," so of course you rarely saw normal PvP fights, because no horde players of your level would actually go to where you played. If you actually traveled outside your comfort zone and actually leveled up your character a little bit, you would have seen a much different scene.

The truth is that the level 60 running by and slaughtering you is a rare event in the life of a normal character. The more common occurancce is fights between players and parties mostly of your own level. Are they often unfair fights like 2-on-1's and such? Absolutely! But then, you can also go grab a party and get revenge on them and drive them out of the area. What's great is the intensity of always watching your back and the social aspect of grouping up so that you can watch each other's back. Let's face it, the outdoor areas are a boring grind. The chance or threat of spontaneous PvP combat plus the comraderie that comes from complete strangers teaming up to face the other faction is what makes the PvP server fun.

Regarding PvP lite on the PvE servers, the thing is that you really don't have much of an option for PvP "whenever you want it." If some group of the opposing faction enters your territory and starts mocking and taunting everyone (yes, still possible even with the language barrier), you can't do a damn thing about it. Also, on town raids, you can't head them off at the pass. Instead, you have to wait for a raid to actually enter a town and attack some NPC's to get PvP flagged. And once a raid member rezes again, you have to wait for them to attack another NPC. Come on! That's not a real battle. And, most importantly, you don't get to participate in the dozens of small party skimishes over sections of territory on wide ranging terrain that are always occuring on the PvP server. On the PvP server, you feel the "war" aspect of the game much more vividly, and it adds a fabulous dimension to the game.

With Battlegrounds implementing PvP rewards on a PvE server, it becomes even more pointless...

You tease me about mentioning yet-to-be-released features, although I usually take a wait-and-see attitude on them. And yet, here you are once again touting Battlegrounds, a yet-to-be-released feature. We don't know yet what Battlegrounds will be like. We have some vague references that they'll work like raid instances where two raid groups of opposing factions enter the raid portals and face off. If that's the case, then these battlegrounds are going to take a tremendous amount of coordination to organize -- not only your team but the opposing team. They could also be like raid instances where a person would be obligated to stay for a couple of hours, rather than the "I have a fifteen minutes before I gotta go, let's go slaughter some Alliance!" that some people might want. Plus, if you're not in a major guild, you might find it hard to get into some of these Battleground raid groups.

Or, if Blizzard has abandoned this idea and has moved to a "let everybody in" model of Battlegrounds, then all battles will be determined by whichever faction throws the most bodies into the Battleground (read: Alliance). And in this case, you won't have much choice to go find a more even fight, because the small number of Battlegrounds will be clogged up the same way.

There are two different ways of looking at this:

1. PvE: I am safe to travel throughout the world without being attacked by any player. I can also, on rare occations, participate in some small PvP activities if a major raid is organized, and I might be able to do some stuff in the not-yet-implemented Battlegrounds.
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2. PvP: I can participate in PvP activites anytime day-or-night 24/7. These activities can be one-on-one fights, small party skirmishs, large party skirmishes, or full-scale raids. And if I want to take a break from PvP (or even the threat of PvP), I can enjoy the PvE aspects of the game stress-free in instances and in less populated zones.<>
   [st]If you want to focus almost exclusively on the PvE aspects of the game and only want to PvP on very rare occations -- and in times and locations not necessarily of your choosing -- then the PvE server is for you. If, however, you want to be able to participate in PvP combat at any time and yet at the same time want to be able to do a lot of PvE stuff as well, then try out the PvP servers.

[Boutros]

I also do not think that most PvP encounters consist of ganking. Most of my PvP experience has been fighting groups of 20-30s in ashenvale. In fact a couple of days ago my brother and I even managed to get into a totally fair fight. He a 28 shaman and I a 27 warrior encountered an alliance Priest and Warrior the same levels as us while questing off the beaten path in Ashenvale. The first round there were some monsters fighting us when the battle began, and my brother saw fit to focus on the warrior rather than the priest, but I managed to kill the priest shortly after he died, then I had the other warrior down to no hitpoints, I even started to emote at him, when he chugged a greater health potion and dropped me. :( They didn't camp our corpses, and we were able to engage them again and this time come away with the W. It may not have served any purpose, and it may even have denied my character experience and cash that I could have obtained had I quested instead, but I had loads of fun that I wouldn't have been able to have on a PvE server in a contested zone. Most of my PvP experiences have been a lot like this.