An appeal for moderation

[Treesh]

Treesh, a while back, when the regulars were in pitched into the battle with the hordes of invading buffoons, I am talking two to three years ago, and particularly during the Beta Test for D II XPAC, I made the comment that a community sets and demands the norms it wants.  For the longest time, Elric held the FAQ and etiquette on his site, as Bolty did not want to be that stuffy.  :) 

The community is all of us.  We realized then that the mods/admins could not do it all, and Bolty & Co expressed general appreciation for support, though the occasional overzealous defense of the Lounge would get "that hardly helps" corrections from the head shed.  I was on the receiving end of a few of those myself.

The membership must to a certain extent enforce, by peer pressure, community standards.  What Pete seems to be appealing for, and I hear you echoing, is a call for a somewhat less strident (anal?) approach to "form versus substance" in re posting that borders on the edges of accepted norms.

This ain't the first time the call has gone out to loosen our ties a bit.  I would liken the process to flushing the car radiator now and again: a periodic maintenance activity.  ;)

Occhi
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I remember some of those times. One was shortly after Blizzard put up a link to the LL on the Chaos Sanctuary. I've been lurking for quite some time. Just never really felt like I had much to contribute to the forums so I didn't post. Yes, weeding out the chaff was a bit more necessary then precisely because there were so many new people who just assumed that the LL could be treated like the bnet forums. And if you'll notice I did mention in my posts that the behavior of this community has improved/gone back to being less hostile otherwise I would have already been told to "bugger off", but not so succintly. ;)

Whether or not you choose to believe me, I have been around to see a lot of the changes the Lounge has gone through. No, I haven't seen them all, but there are only a handful of people who can claim they've seen it all and not be lying. It just feels like you're subtly trying to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about because you think I haven't been part of the lounge forever. To me, both this post of yours and the first one in response to my post are just trying to get me to shut up. "Pete knows, he can offer his opinion. She doesn't know, she can't." If I'm inferring something that you have not implied, my apologies.

[ShadowHM]

I don't think it's just the grammar corrections that scare a lot of people away.  It's the reputation of elitism that does it.  Granted, this elitism has toned down quite a bit over the years (with minor flareups every so often), but a lot of people still expect to either be ignored completely about a point they're trying to make or bug they've found or whatever decent post they're trying to make  or else are pummeled into the ground (figuratively speaking) for daring to have an opinion while not being a Good Ol' Lurker™ (GOL).  It really did feel like this was a good ol' boy network.  If you weren't a known code diving monkey or hadn't been an active poster since DSF, you were nothing.  You could have screenshots showing your point, have a detailed explanation of how you tested whatever you were testing and it would still go unnoticed unless one of the GOLs happened to decide later on to test it.  Yes, random posters who claimed to have found something out shouldn't be believed without question when they post, but a lot of things seemed to be completely dismissed and not even looked into or corrected if they were known to be wrong.  For a while it seemed that GOLs would only respond to GOLs, with the exception of flames and unnecessary negativity.  Those were spread around to everyone; some deserving, some not.

I'm not referring to the off-topic forums much, but that's because I tended to avoid reading it much of the time.  I frequently came here strictly for good behind the scenes info and seeing how people were treated in the game forums, I didn't want to see how people were treated in the off topic forum (which are typically worse).  I did poke in there now and again, but ran off without ever posting because my opinion on the OT stuff wouldn't matter anyway.  Now, as I said at the beginning, this has toned down but people's perceptions can take longer to change.
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I have been thinking about the point you make about the 'on-topic' forums.

I used to read them faithfully, in the hope that I would be able to substitute knowledge of game mechanics for failing reflexes. :blush: There were times when there was a dismissive tone in reponses to a 'newcomer' who posted observations about the game. There is an understandable desire in all of us to have our favourite experts validate observations before we accept them as fact. But the dismissive tone does not help us welcome new members. I hope the same pattern will not extend itself to the WOW forums.

The off-topic forum is another ball of wax though. We all come from wildly varied backgrounds, with knowledge and opinions from many different experiences. My own reticence about posting in the 'on-topic' forums because of lack of game knowledge has not stopped me from being the opinionated person I am about other topics. :rolleyes:

In terms of forum style, I tend to offer criticism and/or small corrections via private message, rather than via a post. However, I have also been known to post something scathing after those private messages are ignored. I will be taking Pete's admonishment to heart (well, at least trying ;) ).

I suspect that in this forum, it could be very daunting to jump into a new topic, when one is not familiar with the place. There have been some very spirited debates here. Further, for a newcomer, it must be disconcerting to see some of the GOL's disagreeing so emphatically. They would not know that some of us have managed to disagree strongly and then agree to disagree afterwards. For example, I have disagreed strongly with Occhi on quite a few topics, but I still value his viewpoint, as I do many others with whom I often disagree. In the best case scenario, I learn something and change my mind after reading differing opinions (VanDiablo comes to mind - he gave me the most gentle slap on the wrist I have even received and it sank right in because it was so gentle). On the other hand, there are others that make me think of stopped watches - they might be right twice a day, but that doesn't make them worth my attention. We all have to work out for ourselves just which ones we feel that way about.

[Wiccan]

I remember some of those times.  One was shortly after Blizzard put up a link to the LL on the Chaos Sanctuary.  I've been lurking for quite some time.  Just never really felt like I had much to contribute to the forums so I didn't post.  Yes, weeding out the chaff was a bit more necessary then precisely because there were so many new people who just assumed that the LL could be treated like the bnet forums.  And if you'll notice I did mention in my posts that the behavior of this community has improved/gone back to being less hostile otherwise I would have already been told to "bugger off", but not so succintly. ;)

Whether or not you choose to believe me, I have been around to see a lot of the changes the Lounge has gone through.  No, I haven't seen them all, but there are only a handful of people who can claim they've seen it all and not be lying.  It just feels like you're subtly trying to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about because you think I haven't been part of the lounge forever.  To me, both this post of yours and the first one in response to my post are just trying to get me to shut up.  "Pete knows, he can offer his opinion.  She doesn't know, she can't."  If I'm inferring something that you have not implied, my apologies.
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Hi,
Some of the ones that are being called anal retentive {Grammar Nazis} should be commended for there help other should not, far be it for me to say anything about there up bringing…

I have told everyone about my problem on the Lurker Lounge & no I am not looking for sympathy, I am looking for place to share my love for the art of interaction thru a program that I bought, we come to know them as computers games.

If the others wish to say” Your not making any sense to me, I wish for you to learn to type… grammar, contextual content and intelligent posting.”, far be for me to call them anything bad for I USE TO BE LIKE THAT!
Now I see how it is from the ones doing the blasting and from prospective of being basted, its not fun being the blastee, if you wish to do that please go get your doctorate in English lit. I have mine and you know what it doesn’t mean anything it’s just words on a paper with fancy lettering, welcome to my world as i have a problem with remembering how to type and yes I am relearning what to do. And how to make sense... at least I am trying and all I can say thanks for helping me try to make contact and understand what I am saying.

Merry Christmas
p.s Love the flames there what kept me working hard, some are creative would probably win a few awards....

edit: The capital "I" are few in place where they do not belong, i am sorry but thats what it does in the words perfect suite when you use spelling correction etc... blame the program not the user :shuriken:

[Occhidiangela]

I remember some of those times.  One was shortly after Blizzard put up a link to the LL on the Chaos Sanctuary.  I've been lurking for quite some time.  Just never really felt like I had much to contribute to the forums so I didn't post.  Yes, weeding out the chaff was a bit more necessary then precisely because there were so many new people who just assumed that the LL could be treated like the bnet forums.  And if you'll notice I did mention in my posts that the behavior of this community has improved/gone back to being less hostile otherwise I would have already been told to "bugger off", but not so succintly. ;)

Whether or not you choose to believe me, I have been around to see a lot of the changes the Lounge has gone through.  No, I haven't seen them all, but there are only a handful of people who can claim they've seen it all and not be lying.  It just feels like you're subtly trying to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about because you think I haven't been part of the lounge forever.  To me, both this post of yours and the first one in response to my post are just trying to get me to shut up.  "Pete knows, he can offer his opinion.  She doesn't know, she can't."  If I'm inferring something that you have not implied, my apologies.
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Why would I want you to shut up? You tend to make sense. This is a conversation, not an attempt to end one.

????

From that post, you were more lurker than poster for a while. That can only re affirm your status as a lurker in good standing. ;) I am trying to answer up to the "GOL" versus "brand new" comments, but I don't think I am getting through.

I wonder if the tone I wrote that in is not the tone it came across in. That has happened before. I was not "here" when the concrete was new, nor have I seen it all. I was a player is some rather heated flame wars here. I also used to tell more jokes.

Occhi

[Nystul]

After giving this some more thought, I think the "signal" part of the equation is far more important than the "noise" part. A lot of websites and forums were created as spinoffs of the DSF. Being mostly community-type sites, none of these that I can recall ever died from too much "noise". The only ones that had staying power filled a specific content niche that kept new people feeding in. With Bolty updating news multiple times per day, and several gurus posting game mechanics info here before it was known anywhere else, this site put out so much signal that high standards were needed just to keep things from getting out of control. The standards, the archives, the reputation, and the base community reading this post all remain, but the signal behind it all is not the same.

General discussion forums keep longtime visitors, who have grown familiar with each other, coming back. They are not signal generators for anyone else. Nobody outside of this community gives a darn about this thread, or what some Lurker thinks about geopolitics, or what some Lurker got his Secret Santa for Christmas. The best this particular forum can do for newcomers is to avoid scaring them away on day one. :rolleyes:

The signal generated here by Diablo and Diablo 2 is below the point of critical mass (hooray for mixed metaphors!). It's not just that these are old games that nobody outside the community is getting started with, although that is part of the problem. The other side of it is that there aren't enough players inside the community doing anything noteworthy enough to attract interest.

World of Warcraft? There are plenty of people outside the Lurker Lounge who are new to this game. The question is, "Why would they come here?" We have other existing threads discussing that issue, so I don't want to turn this thread into a discussion on that point. But I think it is really at the crux of the issue.

You see... this isn't just a stuffy elite society with high standards. It is a stuffy elite society with high standards and very few worthwhile benefits to offer new members! :rolleyes: But that's a gross exaggeration. This site still has visibility, many Lurkers are getting into WoW, the content will progress, and people will trickle in. Then, it will be up to the rest of us to understand what this site's niche in WoW is going to be, and not screw it up. Perhaps we will get lucky, and the {Jarulf/Trucidation/Crystalion}s of WoW will be mature adults with perfect grammar and spelling who read every FAQ and back every argument up with strong logic. ;)

[Munkay]

A question arose after reading Ghostiger's post.

I do not mean to make a debate about this, for I am not trying to pick a fight about grammar here. Rather I want to ask a question about the grounds upon which we nit people for grammar.

When it comes to new posters, I agree completely about not being "grammar nazi's." It only serves to drive them away.

But in the case of established lurkers, where is the line?

***Warning: Ghostiger, I'm using you as an example***

Take for example Ghostiger and I. I [genuinely] enjoy his input and his viewpoint. I often times find myself on the opposite end of the spectrum and like to entertain a [sometimes] heated debate about it. Now I don't personally hold anything against him, nor do I think either of us are up late at night crying over what was said. ;)

When I debate I spend time and edit my posts to the best of my ability. Therefore, when I am debating with an established lurker, it drives me up the wall when I feel grammar/editing is being ignored in their replies. I've nitted Ghost on a number of occasions for this.

Is this crossing a line? I don't see a grammar nit between two established lurkers being counter productive. If anything, a striving for a higher level of grammar isn't a bad thing to established, especially if new lurkers are given lots of slack.

What do lurkers think?

Ghost, I apologize if I offended you. I just wanted to draw on my own personal history, and you were the first that came to mind :D .

Cheers,

Munk

[Taem]

I have been thinking about the point you make about the 'on-topic' forums.  

I used to read them faithfully, in the hope that I would be able to substitute knowledge of game mechanics for failing reflexes.   :blush:  There were times when there was a dismissive tone in reponses to a 'newcomer' who posted observations about the game.   There is an understandable desire in all of us to have our favourite experts validate observations before we accept them as fact.   But the dismissive tone does not help us welcome new members.   I hope the same pattern will not extend itself to the WOW forums.

The off-topic forum is another ball of wax though.   We all come from wildly varied backgrounds, with knowledge and opinions from many different experiences.   My own reticence about posting in the 'on-topic' forums because of lack of game knowledge has not stopped me from being the opinionated person I am about other topics.   :rolleyes:

In terms of forum style, I tend to offer criticism and/or small corrections via private message, rather than via a post.   However, I have also been known to post something scathing after those private messages are ignored.   I will be taking Pete's admonishment to heart (well, at least trying  ;) ).

I suspect that in this forum, it could be very daunting to jump into a new topic, when one is not familiar with the place.   There have been some very spirited debates here.   Further, for a newcomer, it must be disconcerting to see some of the GOL's disagreeing so emphatically.   They would not know that some of us have managed to disagree strongly and then agree to disagree afterwards.   For example, I have disagreed strongly with Occhi on quite a few topics, but I still value his viewpoint, as I do many others with whom I often disagree.   In the best case scenario, I learn something and change my mind after reading differing opinions (VanDiablo comes to mind - he gave me the most gentle slap on the wrist I have even received and it sank right in because it was so gentle).  On the other hand, there are others that make me think of stopped watches - they might be right twice a day, but that doesn't make them worth my attention.   We all have to work out for ourselves just which ones we feel that way about.
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There appears to be a consensual agreement generating in this thread that there’s a problem with the way Lurkers are dealing with [new] posters. For reasons pointed out by Pete, various people have noticed a trend of Lurkers to scrutinize posts for grammar and syntax cohesiveness, and the subsequent response rendered from this scrutiny makes some people feel inadequate and unwelcome at the Lounge; this is especially true for [new] posters.

As a community, it is important for all of our thoughts and ideas to be [spoken] and [heard]. That’s why the LL works so well because everyone helps to moderate the boards, yet if we can't “moderate” appropriately as a group then shouldn’t the next logical course be to rely on the designated moderating staff to enforce the LL's standards? I know this is what the [REPORT!] button is for, however I feel this would put an unnecessary strain on the moderating staff, and our community as a whole.

I would like to propose a solution: on various forum boards I have encountered throughout the net, there are some forums that require you to run your post threw a spelling and grammar checker before you are allowed to make your post. What usually happens is you write your post and click ENTER. Before being posted, this spell-checking program pops-up, usually hosted on the web site of the forum, and – starting at the top – starts showing you mistakes in the post. You can either change or ignore all the suggestions in the spell-checking/grammar program, however you must let it examine the entire post and give you the [GO AHEAD AND POST] or [DELETE] option before actually posting. It could be argued that this wouldn’t really be helpful at all because people could easily bypass the programs usefulness by simply clicking ignore for the whole post, however it will be obvious who came to the Lounge to post seriously and who is here to play games. With my proposal for a program like this, [grammar-nazi’s] would be nonexistent and the LL would not be a [dying] board – although to be honest, I thought it was growing.

[EDIT] - Syntax error :P

[Occhidiangela]

There appears to be a consensual agreement generating in this thread that there’s a problem with the way Lurkers are dealing with [new] posters.  For reasons pointed out by Pete, various people have noticed a trend of Lurkers to scrutinize posts for grammar and syntax cohesiveness, and the subsequent response rendered from this scrutiny makes some people feel inadequate and unwelcome at the Lounge; this is especially true for [new] posters.

As a community, it is important for all of our thoughts and ideas to be [spoken] and [heard].  That’s why the LL works so well because everyone helps to moderate the boards, yet if we can't “moderate” appropriately as a group then shouldn’t the next logical course be to rely on the designated moderating staff to enforce the LL's standards?  I know this is what the [REPORT!] button is for, however I feel this would put an unnecessary strain on the moderating staff, and our community as a whole.

I would like to propose a solution: on various forum boards I have encountered throughout the net, there are some forums that require you to run your post threw a spelling and grammar checker before you are allowed to make your post.  What usually happens is you write your post and click ENTER.  Before being posted, this spell-checking program pops-up, usually hosted on the web site of the forum, and – starting at the top – starts showing you mistakes in the post.  You can either change or ignore all the suggestions in the spell-checking/grammar program, however you must let it examine the entire post and give you the [GO AHEAD AND POST] or [DELETE] option before actually posting.  It could be argued that this wouldn’t really be helpful at all because people could easily bypass the programs usefulness by simply clicking ignore for the whole post, however it will be obvious who came to the Lounge to post seriously and who is here to play games.  With my proposal for a program like this, [grammar-nazi’s] would be nonexistent and the LL would not be a [dying] board – although to be honest, I thought it was growing.

[EDIT] - Syntax error  :P
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Preview button is our friend. Sadly, I all too frequently hit post rather than preview first, then have to recall that "edit button" is our friend too. Spell checking is best done, IMO, by the person, not a machine.

Call me a luddite.

Occhi

[Urza-DSF]

Preview button is our friend.  Sadly, I all too frequently hit post rather than preview first, then have to recall that "edit button" is our friend too.  Spell checking is best done, IMO, by the person, not a machine. 

Call me a luddite.

Occhi
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Heh, no need to Occhi, off the top of my head I can recall that the New York Times had the spellcheckers removed from their writer's computers because it was causing more errors than without em.

[Treesh]

Why would I want you to shut up?  You tend to make sense.  This is a conversation, not an attempt to end one. 

???? 

From that post, you were more lurker than poster for a while.  That can only re affirm your status as a lurker in good standing. ;)  I am trying to answer up to the "GOL" versus "brand new" comments, but I don't think I am getting through.

I wonder if the tone I wrote that in is not the tone it came across in.  That has happened before.  I was not "here" when the concrete was new, nor have I seen it all.  I was a player is some rather heated flame wars here.  I also used to tell more jokes.

Occhi
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I've also been rather cranky this last week which is why I mentioned that I could have just completely misread the tone you used. I think I was just looking for a fight (and not a discussion) anywhere (which I realized after I went after a dev of a MMO in production on their official boards for no good reason :blush: ) and chose to see something that wasn't actually there just so I could get riled up about. It was hard, but I managed it. ;) My apologies for being insane this last week. Tal, one word along the lines of "Just this last week?!" and I'll mind control Charley-man and have him sit on your head and neck while you're sleeping, cutting off your air supply. ;)

I do miss your jokes though Occhi. ;) :D And no, I'm just not really getting your point between GOL and brand new. Maybe I need to reread the posts now that I'm no longer a nutjob. Well, at least I'm not an angry nutjob now. ;)

[Nomad25055]

Well said Pete. B)

[Nystul]

When I debate I spend time and edit my posts to the best of my ability.  Therefore, when I am debating with an established lurker, it drives me up the wall when I feel grammar/editing is being ignored in their replies.  I've nitted Ghost on a number of occasions for this.

Is this crossing a line?  I don't see a grammar nit between two established lurkers being counter productive.  If anything, a striving for a higher level of grammar isn't a bad thing to established, especially if new lurkers are given lots of slack.
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Do you edit your posts for grammar and spelling, or for content? It saddens me that this type of thing is even an issue for posters over the age of 10 who have English as their first language. How can someone start to type a sentence without a capital letter, or end it without a punctuation mark? Doesn't it take a lot of effort to do that? To be honest, this completely baffles me. I don't think I would ever need to review a post to reach the LL standards for acceptable grammar and spelling. I do tend to review them for content and coherency, though.

Anyways, a grammar nit can be a distraction to the thread. It is usually not relevant to the topic of the thread, and can potentially lead to a long, unproductive subthread. With that in mind, I usually nit people for spelling and grammar in two cases: either the spelling/grammar errors make it harder for me to understand the post, or the post has something to do with intelligence, education, etc. In the latter case, I am just being facetious. If someone said "President Bush are an idiot!", I would call them on that. If someone said "The game don't start.", I would let it slide. If he said "the game dont start I ned help fixing it", I would say something, because it's hurting comprehension.

Those are my opinions on the matter. However, if someone wants to correct minor grammar errors, it doesn't bother me. Perhaps in the long term, it has a positive effect. It only bothers me if people are rude about it, especially with new posters.

[Griselda]

Do you edit your posts for grammar and spelling, or for content?  It saddens me that this type of thing is even an issue for posters over the age of 10 who have English as their first language.
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Typos. I know that I make a lot of typographical errors, and I don't always notice them the first time through.

[Taem]

Typos.  I know that I make a lot of typographical errors, and I don't always notice them the first time through.
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On the Lounge, I've found that I only make posts or replies to subjects where I feel I have something relevantly important to the subject. Because of this, I often write what I want to say in the text box, then copy this text and paste it in Microsoft Word for editing. Once in Word, I re-read and spell-check the document to make sure the post says exactly what I want it too. When I'm done editing the text and adding whatever needs to be added, I paste it in the text box and [preview] it to make sure it looks the way I expect (I also re-read it to make sure I didn't miss anything). When I neglect to take these steps – happens a lot when I make small, quick responses or I'm tired – I almost always regret it. I hope she doesn’t mind, but I will say that Shadow pointed me to a on-line utility designed to check over your text post before you post; unfortunately, I have long lost the link.

[EDIT] - Whoops. Only half the document got posted :whistling: .

[Occhidiangela]

I've also been rather cranky this last week which is why I mentioned that I could have just completely misread the tone you used.  I think I was just looking for a fight (and not a discussion) anywhere (which I realized after I went after a dev of a MMO in production on their official boards for no good reason  :blush: ) and chose to see something that wasn't actually there just so I could get riled up about.  It was hard, but I managed it. ;)  My apologies for being insane this last week.  Tal, one word along the lines of "Just this last week?!"  and I'll mind control Charley-man and have him sit on your head and neck while you're sleeping, cutting off your air supply.  ;)

I do miss your jokes though Occhi.  ;) :D  And no, I'm just not really getting your point between GOL and brand new.  Maybe I need to reread the posts now that I'm no longer a nutjob.  Well, at least I'm not an angry nutjob now. ;)
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It seems that GOL is a category that you defined to h elp make your point, and I have tried to play along but perhaps missed some nuance. It has been my experience that someone who displays a good head on their shoulders is readily welcomed into the fold, however, reconsidering your comments in re the Armory and Workshop, rather than the OT forums, I see your point in a different light.

An informal norm of the Lounge is that one check more than just the first page forum before asking a technical question. That stems I think from the mad days of Network 54 and the speed with which threads disappeared. The longer someone has been around, the higher the possible sensitivity to a perceived "enter talking" style.

FWIW, before I ever opened my cake hole on the DSF, I read the twenty pages leading up to the "present day" to get a feel for who I was talking to, and what folks there talked about. Of course, it took me a couple of days, so there was more than 20 pages involved. I can see where quick responses to 'Hey, it's on page 4, what's with you pal' would put off a new participant.

I tend to do the "feel things out" thing with any internet boards I participate in. I suppose I should not be surprised that not everyone takes that sort of care before entering into the discussion.

Style counts. A gentle nudge to help a sincere new player is probably a better way to make new friends, rather than "what do you mean you don't know that, its old news?"

Is that closer to the source of your irritation?

Occhi

[Treesh]

It seems that GOL is a category that you defined to h elp make your point, and I have tried to play along but perhaps missed some nuance.  It has been my experience that someone who displays a good head on their shoulders is readily welcomed into the fold, however, reconsidering your comments in re the Armory and Workshop, rather than the OT forums, I see your point in a different light. [right][snapback]63677[/snapback][/right]

Yes, when speaking about GOLs and their behaviors towards non-GOLs it was in regards to posting about the game mechanics rather than the OT stuff.

<Warning! Digression ahead!>
OT is a whole different critter and can be treated as such. I certainly never entered into a lot of the OT discussions because I was (and still am actually. Kinda nice to be considered as one of the young ones at 28 instead of being one of the old geezers ;) ) so much younger than the ones involved in the discussions and really hadn't had as many "life experiences" so I felt I was not knowledgable enough to really have a good, solid discussion. When discussing things, I like to be able to actually support my ideas and most people here had support much better than I had and were able to say what I wanted to say anyway. If someone else has already said all that you wanted to say, why bother just reiterating? Ok, I'm digressing yet again and making my point lost in the ramblings so I'm separating this out as its own paragraph.

An informal norm of the Lounge is that one check more than just the first page forum before asking a technical question.&nbsp; That stems I think from the mad days of Network 54 and the speed with which threads disappeared.&nbsp; The longer someone has been around, the higher the possible sensitivity to a perceived "enter talking" style.[right][snapback]63677[/snapback][/right]

Even after Network 54 (boy was that hard to find since www.lurkerlounge.com didn't exist yet until near the end of network54 hosting. The couple of times I lost all my bookmarks it drove me nuts), threads really got buried quickly and far too many other boards in existance had the same problem - too much traffic so most people didn't want to wade through the pages to find the answer to their simple or frequently asked questions. I view this as "make my life as easy as possible and to hell with any trouble or effort I may cause someone else" and that annoys me online and offline.

FWIW, before I ever opened my cake hole on the DSF, I read the twenty pages leading up to the "present day" to get a feel for who I was talking to, and what folks there talked about.&nbsp; Of course, it took me a couple of days, so there was more than 20 pages involved.&nbsp; I can see where quick responses to 'Hey, it's on page 4, what's with you pal' would put off a new participant.

I tend to do the "feel things out" thing with any internet boards I participate in.&nbsp; I suppose I should not be surprised that not everyone takes that sort of care before entering into the discussion.[right][snapback]63677[/snapback][/right]

I approach boards in a manner similar to yours. I almost never just hop right in and start posting. It's always "read quite a few pages in multiple forums to get a feel for the place" with me. It saves a lot of aggravation and hostility to prepare yourself first, but again it is much easier for people (in the short run) to avoid doing that so they take the lazy way.

Style counts.&nbsp; A gentle nudge to help a sincere new player is probably a better way to make new friends, rather than "what do you mean you don't know that, its old news?"

Is that closer to the source of your irritation?

Occhi
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Yes, that's definitely closer to my source of irritation, but it's not all of it. Of course, a lot of the behaviors that irritated me have improved and I don't really think it's that much of a problem now, but maybe that's just because D1 and D2 have been around so long there's not that much new to discover so it doesn't matter if it's someone new or old posting. ;) :D

Hmmm. That last paragraph doesn't really explain what I want it to. I'll try again.

In addition to the "what do you mean you don't know that, it's old news", there was also "You aren't <insert code monkey's name here> so you don't know what you're talking about. Don't waste our time." And "code monkey" is a term of endearment in this case.* I just don't want to see a similar tone crop up with the World of Warcraft stuff. No "I was in the first push of alpha, go away you insignificant little plebe." Yes, being in alpha or beta you (general "you") do know more about how the game developed and usually have seen more end game content, but that doesn't make you (again, a general "you") better than everyone who wasn't in on the testing.

*Note - Sometimes I use "monkey" as a good thing; sometimes it's used instead of a more profane term and it can be difficult to tell which one it is from context sometimes.

[Zingydex]

Just to toss in my few bits on the topic in general:

I don't pick on people specifically. Not even if they make an enemy out of me. I have much better things to do with my (often limited) online time. If I draw a bead on someone, it was because of something they did, not because of who they are.

However, I am a hardliner on both language and content. If English is your first language and you're not flunking it in school, there's no excuse for the hideous excuses for grammar that pervade some forums. And staying within the discussion topic (as well as the forum rules) should be an automatic as well. I have never been shy (here or anywhere else) about verbally shredding someone who can't grasp such basic concepts, and I doubt I ever will be.

Frankly, if someone's too lazy to type coherently or even read the rules/guidelines of the forum they're typing a post for, I don't see how they're worth the bandwidth they're using by being there. The odd typo, I can live with. AOLese kindergardeners, never.


As far as the mini-thread I'm replying to, for those who use the (nearly unreadable for me) threaded view:

Also, there's a very good reason for "old fogeys" or GOLs as they're referred to here to be at least wary of newbies, since the fresh blood is where the vast majority of any such trouble discussed above comes from. Sad but true, with the intelligence-comma-lack-of held by roughly 90% of the human race, the onus is on the newbie to prove otherwise.



I realize my views will likely come across as highly negative, but unfortunately life has taught me that the cynic is more likely to be correct. Not to mention that when I'm wrong, it's usually a pleasant surprise. ;)

[--Pete]

Hi,

If English is your first language and you're not flunking it in school, there's no excuse for the hideous excuses for grammar that pervade some forums.[right][snapback]63688[/snapback][/right]

For someone who is "a hardliner on both language and content" a mid-sentence shift in person and tense seems rather gauche. And the content might be improved by not using 'excuse' and 'excuses' with differing meanings within a few words of each other.

Glass houses on the rocks, anyone? ;)

--Pete

[jahcs]

Reading this thread on grammar and the Grammar Nazis of the LL is bringing a smile to my face. Discussions like this are what makes the LL great. We can discuss most issues without devolving into senseless flaming and locked threads.

More than half of the posts, just in this thread, have errors that include punctuation, grammar, spelling, and run of the mill typos. The only posts I have seen quoted for correction are those made by people professing to be picky about grammar or posts making fun of proper syntax and spelling. "Glass houses on the rocks, anyone? ;) " (Thanks Pete.)

On the other hand, anyone who is going to be insulting or try to start an argument without a good dose of logic better have all their t's crossed and i's dotted. A post designed to troll or flame will be picked apart piece by piece for it's basis, logic, and grammar - and for good reason in my opinion.

The very fact that the LL holds itself to a higher standard than most of the other online communities is why I have stayed for so long. The maturity of our members is a welcome change from most of the rabble on the Internet. Many of the online forums, some not even game related, allow themselves to be pillars of underachievement in the areas of content, grammar (many posts are simply unintelligible), and interaction between members. The only reason to visit many of them is to see examples of flame wars, spiteful name calling, and pages upon pages of spam.

Quarter has always been given to Lurkers who use English as a second language. I can remember a few posts that had their nits picked before it was known that the poster was not a native speaker of this Gordian Knot we call the English Language. These posters who had the courage to enter a forum not based in their native language should take it as a compliment that they have such a good grasp of English that they could not be told apart from the majority of Americans. (I'm not sure if I should applaud or cry. ;))

In conclusion I would agree with Pete that this forum does not need a Grammar Gestapo. A gentle nudge for members who post things bordering on the unreadable is always welcome though.

edit: The edit button is my friend too. :wub:

[Guest]

Do you edit your posts for grammar and spelling, or for content?&nbsp; It saddens me that this type of thing is even an issue for posters over the age of 10 who have English as their first language.&nbsp; How can someone start to type a sentence without a capital letter, or end it without a punctuation mark?&nbsp; Doesn't it take a lot of effort to do that?&nbsp; To be honest, this completely baffles me.&nbsp; I don't think I would ever need to review a post to reach the LL standards for acceptable grammar and spelling.&nbsp; I do tend to review them for content and coherency, though.
[right][snapback]63589[/snapback][/right]

Does it really matter if there are forgotten capital letters or punctuation marks?
Apparently,it does matter for you;it doesn't matter for me (because it doesn't show any illiteracy from the poster,maybe laziness/negligence);I do it sometimes in other forums,and even here in the LL.So what? Does it mean that I am an idiot/an ignorant ?
According to me,what matters is not the form;what matters is the content.I don't care if a post is mistake free because I only care about the ideas of the poster.I know some very smart people in other forums who never care about punctuations mark or capital letters,but I appreciate their posts because I have always something interesting to learn from them.
And not everyone got the time to check each word (at least for the non English speakers such as me) in the dictionary or check grammar .
What is a bit saddening about the LL forum is that 'nazi grammar' mentality,really.
However I don't mind if the bad grammar/words in my posts are pointed out,provided that it is kindly done (without laughing at me/trolling).
Feel free to speak your mind me if you don't agree with me.

~Abramelin~