An appeal for moderation

[--Pete]

Hi,

As one who has often taken up the mantle of 'grammar nazi' in the past, this may get me accused of hypocrisy. On the other hand, if what I am about to say came from a poster noted for sloppy posting, then it would have no weight. So, perhaps, the only ones who can make this point would all be hypocrits.

A forum must have standards or devolve into primordial ooze. Anyone with more than a passing experience with Internet, especially web, especially game, fora holds that as a self evident truth. Not nearly as self evident is that if the standards are set arbitrarily high, the result is invariably stagnation and decay as the existing posters drift off and new ones are scared away before they can become regulars.

Thus, the standards must be set with some care. Too low, and the noise overcomes the signal. Too high, and there is no signal left. Either way, the death knell of that forum has been struck. Those with something worthwhile to say but without a Churchillian command of the language (and there are many such) should be welcome to post and not overly intimidated. I fear that, in an effort to maintain high standards (a worthy goal) we at the Lounge have (or perhaps just are about to) crossed the line into stagnation.

So, if it is not too late, let me suggest that we show more moderation in the sense "to lessen the intensity or extremeness of" our grammarian criticisms and less moderation in the sense "to preside over" the means of expression of others.

Let us set the standard of acceptable communication at acceptable communication. Instead of searching for a perfect medium, perhaps devoid of message, we could settle for a medium sufficiently clear that the message is conveyed. Not an abadonment of standards, but a repositioning of them away from the snobbish self-congratulatory levels we seem to be approching.

--Pete

[Tal]

Hi Pete
Well said and thank you for posting this. :)

-Tal

[Guest]

Hi,

As one who has often taken up the mantle of 'grammar nazi' in the past, this may get me accused of hypocrisy.  On the other hand, if what I am about to say came from a poster noted for sloppy posting, then it would have no weight.  So, perhaps, the only ones who can make this point would all be hypocrits.

A forum must have standards or devolve into primordial ooze.  Anyone with more than a passing experience with Internet, especially web, especially game, fora holds that as a self evident truth.  Not nearly as self evident is that if the standards are set arbitrarily high, the result is invariably stagnation and decay as the existing posters drift off and new ones are scared away before they can become regulars.

Thus, the standards must be set with some care.  Too low, and the noise overcomes the signal.  Too high, and there is no signal left.  Either way, the death knell of that forum has been struck.  Those with something worthwhile to say but without a Churchillian command of the language (and there are many such) should be welcome to post and not overly intimidated.  I fear that, in an effort to maintain high standards (a worthy goal) we at the Lounge have (or perhaps just are about to) crossed the line into stagnation.

So, if it is not too late, let me suggest that we show more moderation in the sense "to lessen the intensity or extremeness of" our grammarian criticisms and less moderation in the sense "to preside over" the means of expression of others.

Let us set the standard of acceptable communication at acceptable communication.  Instead of searching for a perfect medium, perhaps devoid of message, we could settle for a medium sufficiently clear that the message is conveyed.  Not an abadonment of standards, but a repositioning of them away from the snobbish self-congratulatory levels we seem to be approching.

--Pete
[right][snapback]63357[/snapback][/right]

Pete,you wrote exactly what I thought about this forum;this is not easy to express one's thought in english when you're not english speaking as I am;I make english mistakes,I know.Still,I try to make as less mistakes as possible and I try to choose the right words,this is not easy at all,trust me.
As for the general feeling about off topic forums:in my opinion,they are a bit too serious,and there seems to be taboo topics (correct me if I am wrong for that matter) in the off topic.I have often noticed people who were banned without noticeable reasons (maybe because of these taboo topics?);I haven't understood why some were banned according to what I read,and I don't understand what are the limits beyond which one can be banned,really.This might explain why members or just guests could be reluctant to make threads or posts answers.And might explain why you notice that the off topic forum is dying.
I have sometimes been reluctant to make threads or post answers for fear of being banned (because of members who were banned for no noticeable reasons)
Last thing:an off topic forum will stay alive if you allow any topic ,which,I fear,is not the case in the LL off topic forum.I may be wrong though.And again,correct me if my guess is wrong.

[Ashock]

Hi,

As one who has often taken up the mantle of 'grammar nazi' in the past, this may get me accused of hypocrisy.  On the other hand, if what I am about to say came from a poster noted for sloppy posting, then it would have no weight.  So, perhaps, the only ones who can make this point would all be hypocrits.

A forum must have standards or devolve into primordial ooze.  Anyone with more than a passing experience with Internet, especially web, especially game, fora holds that as a self evident truth.  Not nearly as self evident is that if the standards are set arbitrarily high, the result is invariably stagnation and decay as the existing posters drift off and new ones are scared away before they can become regulars.

Thus, the standards must be set with some care.  Too low, and the noise overcomes the signal.  Too high, and there is no signal left.  Either way, the death knell of that forum has been struck.  Those with something worthwhile to say but without a Churchillian command of the language (and there are many such) should be welcome to post and not overly intimidated.  I fear that, in an effort to maintain high standards (a worthy goal) we at the Lounge have (or perhaps just are about to) crossed the line into stagnation.

So, if it is not too late, let me suggest that we show more moderation in the sense "to lessen the intensity or extremeness of" our grammarian criticisms and less moderation in the sense "to preside over" the means of expression of others.

Let us set the standard of acceptable communication at acceptable communication.  Instead of searching for a perfect medium, perhaps devoid of message, we could settle for a medium sufficiently clear that the message is conveyed.  Not an abadonment of standards, but a repositioning of them away from the snobbish self-congratulatory levels we seem to be approching.

--Pete
[right][snapback]63357[/snapback][/right]

Haer, haer. I am sikc and tird of litenig to all the gremer nazi's. Enogh is enogh!


So to sumarise: I'm wiht u!



A-


ps. I hope spele cheker works.

[Guest]

Haer, haer. I am sikc and tird of litenig to all the gremer nazi's. Enogh is enogh!
So to sumarise: I'm wiht u!
A-
ps. I hope spele cheker works.
[right][snapback]63364[/snapback][/right]

Kidding is ok,trolling is not.
And you wonder why this forum is dying!

[Ashock]

Kidding is ok,trolling is not.
And you wonder why this forum is dying!
[right][snapback]63365[/snapback][/right]

Um, wat is you probmle, sony?


A-

[Zarathustra]

And you wonder why this forum is dying!
[right][snapback]63365[/snapback][/right]

I must have missed something.

[Ashock]

I must have missed something.
[right][snapback]63367[/snapback][/right]

You are not the only one, but that's ok. We must be patient with our "special" members.



-A

[--Pete]

Hi,

I think you missed the humor intended in Ashock's post ;)

--Pete

[Ashock]

Hi,

I think you missed the humor intended in Ashock's post ;)

--Pete
[right][snapback]63370[/snapback][/right]

That's the story of my life.... The first time my wife saw me naked from the front she started laughing out loud. That time, I missed the humor in it..... Oh well....



-A

[Fragbait]

Hi,

As one who has often taken up the mantle of 'grammar nazi' in the past, this may get me accused of hypocrisy.  On the other hand, if what I am about to say came from a poster noted for sloppy posting, then it would have no weight.  So, perhaps, the only ones who can make this point would all be hypocrits.

A forum must have standards or devolve into primordial ooze.  Anyone with more than a passing experience with Internet, especially web, especially game, fora holds that as a self evident truth.  Not nearly as self evident is that if the standards are set arbitrarily high, the result is invariably stagnation and decay as the existing posters drift off and new ones are scared away before they can become regulars.

Thus, the standards must be set with some care.  Too low, and the noise overcomes the signal.  Too high, and there is no signal left.  Either way, the death knell of that forum has been struck.  Those with something worthwhile to say but without a Churchillian command of the language (and there are many such) should be welcome to post and not overly intimidated.  I fear that, in an effort to maintain high standards (a worthy goal) we at the Lounge have (or perhaps just are about to) crossed the line into stagnation.

So, if it is not too late, let me suggest that we show more moderation in the sense "to lessen the intensity or extremeness of" our grammarian criticisms and less moderation in the sense "to preside over" the means of expression of others.

Let us set the standard of acceptable communication at acceptable communication.  Instead of searching for a perfect medium, perhaps devoid of message, we could settle for a medium sufficiently clear that the message is conveyed.  Not an abadonment of standards, but a repositioning of them away from the snobbish self-congratulatory levels we seem to be approching.

--Pete
[right][snapback]63357[/snapback][/right]

Hi,

I cannot quite understand why you think these fora are bound to run into stagnation:

Board Statistics
Board Stats  Our members have made a total of 62,954 posts
We have 2,245 registered members
The newest member is sid_jain
Most users ever online was 514 on Dec 14 2004, 02:01 AM

We have more users than ever. We had a new record of most users ever online just recently, we even got a whole new division of fora!
I just seem to fail to realise the point. It's only natural that the action on the DII division of the fora slows down a bit, after all this game has its 4 years on its hunch, too.

And I don't think that we are being to strict in our standards. After all it's the LURKERlounge, and I think the forum regulations could become clear to everyone who lurks for a while. Spellcheckers and dictionary sites aren't rare, too. If a new member has a difficult start because he is flamed a lot, that doesn't necessarily have to result in him leaving, but can also cause him to adapt and become a (worthy) member of this community. Yours truly didn't have an easy birth here neither.

So what's the big deal? Perhaps we are a little bit to offensive in our trout wiping, but then again - that's what seperates the lounge from other fora, isn't it?
I'll happily change my point of view if I'm being convinced, though.

Greetings, Fragbait

[kandrathe]

...
I have sometimes been reluctant to make threads or post answers for fear of being banned (because of members who were banned for no noticeable reasons)
Last thing:an off topic forum will stay alive if you allow any topic ,which,I fear,is not the case in the LL off topic forum.I may be wrong though.And again,correct me if my guess is wrong.
[right][snapback]63362[/snapback][/right]

The people who are banned are usually banned for reasons that are obvious to the Mods. The recent ones I would suspect were previously banned people who re-joined with a different name, and who were bent on starting trouble. You and most people would get the courtesy of some dialog, which if heeded would absolve you (and them).

I'm not put off by any topic. But, depending on how you present the initial topic can set the tone of the entire thread. I might not participate for various reasons, including either I have already stated my thoughts, or I'm burnt out on that topic, or I can think of nothing worthwhile to contribute.

To my mind, the only limiting rule at the LL is to avoid hot button topics, (eg. Abortion, Duping Items, Selling Items on EBay) as they tend to be gasoline fights with messy endings, hurt feelings and locked threads. Many times these kinds of threads are started on forums by Trolls who just want to see a good fight, but couldn't argue their way out of the proverbial wet hanky.

Could it be perhaps it is just that no one is taking up the mantle of adding threads, due to either a lack of inspirational juice, or perhaps the intimidation factor that Pete referenced. Perhaps the regulars would be game to commit to adding a decent topic thread at least once a week.

Also, this is not a time of year where people tend to have an excess amount of free time, but come January watch out. :)

[Minionman]

Could it be perhaps it is just that no one is taking up the mantle of adding threads, due to either a lack of inspirational juice, or perhaps the intimidation factor that Pete referenced.  Perhaps the regulars would be game to commit to adding a decent topic thread at least once a week.
[right][snapback]63374[/snapback][/right]

This and the "klimited" topics seem to explain pretty well why the forums aren't active right now, before the middle of november, a lot of the major threads wre about U.S. politics, after the election, not much came up to replace it as something a lot of people get interested in.

[Griselda]

You're right. *Nobody* has been banned from the Lounge without getting an excessive number of warnings, usually on the forums and via personal messenger, except in the case of somebody showing up and immediately posting an ad for a site that promotes cheating.

There have been quite a few posters lately who have been banned and then returned to the forums with a "new" identity, so what they've done might not be immediately obvious to other posters. I think that's where the current confusion comes from.

The fact that people get banned here is never meant to hinder actual discussion. I try to make sure that I only ban people who seem to be out to hurt the site, not legitimate members who might generate some heated discussion.

The only exception to that would be somebody who might persist in debating things like "is maphack cheating", when we know that discussion is going nowhere and they have been asked to let it drop.

We're also usually willing to talk to posters who have been banned and have the sense to take their case up via email. We don't want to keep people out who genuinely would like to be here.

I'm sorry if the mood here has become such that people are concerned about being banned in the course of a legitimate discussion. I will have to think about what I can do to reverse that perception.

[DeeBye]

I'm sorry if the mood here has become such that people are concerned about being banned in the course of a legitimate discussion.  I will have to think about what I can do to reverse that perception.
[right][snapback]63379[/snapback][/right]

What might help is if you make it quite public about who is being banned, and for what reason. I've never disagreed with any of the bans here, but I usually had to dig around to find out exactly what the recipient of the ban had done wrong. If you keep a running tally of banned users and the reasons why they were banned, in a prominent place, people could get a better feel for what's allowed and not allowed here.

I'm going to take a moment to give some :wub: to the moderators here. You guys put up with a lot of crap, and you always do it with grace. I could never have that much self-control.

[Hammerskjold]

> If you keep a running tally of banned users and the reasons why they were banned, in a prominent place, people could get a better feel for what's allowed and not allowed here.


A possible flip side I see to that is, that type of wall of shame can become a wall of fame for some people.

[DeeBye]

A possible flip side I see to that is, that type of wall of shame can become a wall of fame for some people.
[right][snapback]63399[/snapback][/right]

Yeah, but if they're IP banned then who cares? They get banned once and that's that. I'm sure that if you (not you personally) invested enough time and effort into being a gigantic forum troll you could give all the mods here headaches, but I doubt anyone would bother. What kind of "victory" would that be anyway?

I can imagine the IRC chatlog:

TROLL: i got banned again from that lukrer loueg place!
IRC USER #502: where?
TROLL: the lurker lounge
IRC USER #502: what who cares
IRC USER #1,058: here is a link to sum pron!
IRC USERS #1 THROUGH 1,000,000: yay pr0n

[Hammerskjold]

>Yeah, but if they're IP banned then who cares? They get banned once and that's that.

We're not in disagreement in that part.

>I'm sure that if you (not you personally) invested enough time and effort into being a gigantic forum troll you could give all the mods here headaches, but I doubt anyone would bother. What kind of "victory" would that be anyway?

The rewards and motivation differs from individual idiots, but some will take any kind of attention bad or good as a form of reward.

[DeeBye]

The rewards and motivation differs from individual idiots, but some will take any kind of attention bad or good as a form of reward.
[right][snapback]63402[/snapback][/right]

If I was a dedicated forum troll and wanted to stir up OMG DRAMA by being banned from an internet forum, the Lurker Lounge wouldn't even be on my radar.

[Guest]

You guys dont complain about most errors.

I suppose you may scare the newbie posters off, but to be honest the majority of you make grammer/spelling/typing errors occassionally and no one complains.

I thinks its notable that almost all the grammer/spelling complaints aimed me just happen to come in threads where I say something unpopular(which is often).
Sure I make many more errors that most of you, but never get a complaint when people like what I say.

I think the Lounge probably does have an image of being gammer nazi central, but the reality of it isnt so bad.



On a funny side note. On 3 seperate occassions since the Lounge reopened I have been flamed for my grammer/spelling and in the course of the flame a grammer/spelling error was made.