I'm hoping this improves...

[Bob the Beholder]

So my uber-mage of supreme magery has hit level 18. I'm now getting Elite quests, which I'm not about to solo, and plenty of quests that I'm too low level to do alone. So I have to party. This is not something that should be a problem, should it? Well it kind of is...

For example, the last party I was in, we were trying to do a quest on Fenris Ilse in Silverpine. It's the one where you find a talking head, go to where his body is, and then find a hidden niche in Fenris Keep.

So, first off, we had no tank. I'm used to this by now, though. I'm not sure if it's just the Undead territories (Tirisfal and Silverpine, so far), but there are no warriors. None. All of the random spam you see involves some group looking for a warrior. Mages, Priests, Warlocks? EVERYWHERE. But no Warriors. Really, I've had parties of nothing but mages. And every party I've ever been in has had at least two.

A Warlock's voidwalker could suffice, if the warlocks would bother to use them. They can command minions, yeah? 'Cause most Warlocks I've seen so far, they just fight the enemies, and ithe Voidwalker just kind of stands off to the side, humping a corner, or showing great interest in the native dirt quality.

So, tangent completed, this party consisted of two mages, a warlock, and a priest. But the priest spent the whole time in Ambermill for some reason.

Anyway, we wander in there, get horribly disorganized, wake up lots and lots of Rot Hides, die a lot, come back, and eventually wander in on Thule Ravenclaw, the boss of that place, who is 7 levels higher than any character there, and surrounced by guards. Yeah... I'm all, "NO! NO! STAY OUT OF THERE!" And they're all, "Come one, let's take 'em!" (Even though it's more like "coem no!1 les tak em!'"--except not that bad) So we die more, and more, and more... eventually the people listen to me and stay out of there. I'm not exactly doing well here either--I'm completely lost, and trying not to wake up any more monsters than necessary. But at least I have some sort of idea where we're going, and am trying to stay with the group.

Seriously, these people were about to resort to asking the 'General' channel where the niche is, when I just opened up the quest log and read where it said "southwest tower."

As to the second point there, there was no coordination. After we clear a room, and start healing up, I'd be all, "Okay, next let's go this way, through this door I'm facing." (Naturally, I'd walk up to the door to emphasize. Although now I think that it would be easier to just use east or north or whatever.) They'd be all, "Sure, okay." But when everybody gets up, I'd go off in the direction I'd indicated, they'd go off in another direction, I'd rush back to them, and we'd get swarmed by two rooms worth of mobs.

(Of course, the biggest problem I had there is where they all implied that it was my fault.)

So, after a while, we get a tank... sort of. A better tank than any of the rest of the party, at least. A Hunter with a pet.

So we go through there--much better progress. Still can't seem to pull less than two Rot Hides at a time in the close quarters, but they're weak anyway (If they were more spread out, I could solo the place, except for Thule).

So we're trying to find this niche, and the scenario I went over above happens again (two different directions...). I woke up a Rot Hide, they woke up two Rot Hides, so I rush to the middle of the three, Frost Nova, then try to get to a safe distance (not happening in that tiny, mob-packed place).

After a few seconds, the Frost Nova runs out, and the one I woke up continues chasing me.... so I run. Because, of course, I have no Frost Nova, and polymorph doesn't affect undead. I start basically running back and forth through the party, like a chicken with its head cut off, doing a very Zim-esque "Raaaah! Aaaaah! Aaaaaaa! Aaaaaa!" So, whoever wants to (Hunter? Hunter's Pet? ANYBODY!?) could pull aggro off of me with a couple of swipes, leaving me to, you know, actually help... nobody does. I continue running. Luckily, before I die, the two Rot Hides they were attacking finally died, so that they deemed it timely to save me. (With about 15 hp left.)

So, uhhh, whining aside, I need to befriend the next Warrior I see, and then set up a Macro that says something along the lines of, "Hey! You with the high hp! GET THIS GUY OFFA ME OR I WILL CRUMPLE YOUR PUNY MORTAL SOUL!" except without that last part.

Anyway, do higher level players learn how to better go slowly through a dungeon, draw enemies more efficiently, and actually help out their party members? Or will I continue having party members who run willy-nilly through everything, but still pause to ask you how to assign Talent Points? Or am I the one at fault here, for some reason I can't think of?

[MongoJerry]

Anyway, do higher level players learn how to better go slowly through a dungeon, draw enemies more efficiently, and actually help out their party members?  Or will I continue having party members who run willy-nilly through everything, but still pause to ask you how to assign Talent Points?  Or am I the one at fault here, for some reason I can't think of?

Haha! In answer to your question, the situation improves two ways: First, people do learn to play better, and second, over time, you find people who play well and build up a friends list network of people who you enjoy playing with.

[Skandranon]

As to the second point there, there was no coordination.  After we clear a room, and start healing up, I'd be all, "Okay, next let's go this way, through this door I'm facing."  (Naturally, I'd walk up to the door to emphasize.  Although now I think that it would be easier to just use east or north or whatever.)  They'd be all, "Sure, okay."  But when everybody gets up, I'd go off in the direction I'd indicated, they'd go off in another direction, I'd rush back to them, and we'd get swarmed by two rooms worth of mobs.

People like this don't grasp even the basics of the game. Groups like this will be rare, but they exist. If it happens, I'd get out of the group and go looking for another one. A tank isn't strictly necessary for non-instance elite quests, but to live without one needs at least a baseline level of coordination.

so I rush to the middle of the three, Frost Nova

Wait, what? You what? Why...why did you do that?

I mean this as a more general question, really. I see a lot of beginner mages doing this and it completely puzzles me each time it happens. The freeze time won't be long enough to be anywhere near useful and the damage is minimal at best. Frost Nova generates extra aggro above and beyond the damage, so it's not a good move in any group situation.

For your case, let me share this advice: if your group is badly coordinated, AoE options are the first to go off the table. It isn't your fault. Bad groups happen, and what happens with bad groups can't be called your fault. That said, there are things that you can do that minimize the Bad Stuff that happens with bad groups, and it's a good idea to learn what those things are.

Anyway, do higher level players learn how to better go slowly through a dungeon, draw enemies more efficiently, and actually help out their party members?

It's not usually a function of level. I've found good, competent players and stupid brain-leaking idiots at all levels of play so far. It may be hard to get into a group, but don't stick with a really bad one. It isn't worth the aggravation.

[Bob the Beholder]

Wait, what?  You what?  Why...why did you do that?

I mean this as a more general question, really.  I see a lot of beginner mages doing this and it completely puzzles me each time it happens.  The freeze time won't be long enough to be anywhere near useful and the damage is minimal at best.  Frost Nova generates extra aggro above and beyond the damage, so it's not a good move in any group situation.
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I dunno, I'm probably just not yet so well versed in party play. I mean, that's what I do in solo. If a monster's on me and I'm not prepared to kill it: Frost Nova and run away. (That is a symptom of hanging around Silverpine, though, I think--most all of the stronger monsters there are undead, demons, or elementals, and not eligible for sheeping. Around my level at least; I don't know about high level monsters.)

I guess I was just trying to provide some on-the-run benefit to my party. But I figure now that it wasn't much of one. I mean, Frost Nova only makes enemies immobile, right, not slowed or anything? So if you're already up on them, and have to be to kill them, it's not a good thing. Particularly when you seem to think that the best thing to do when a monster is in your face is try to cast fireball repeatedly. *shakes fist at annoying party*

On a side note, I got fed up of dealing with the people, monsters and places of Silverpine and moved on to The Crossroads, in the Barrens. Good stuff. I'm liking Khalimdor a lot better. Less gloomy, and more interesting monsters. And a lot more people (thus, better chance of finding people who don't suck).

[Skandranon]

I dunno, I'm probably just not yet so well versed in party play.  I mean, that's what I do in solo.  If a monster's on me and I'm not prepared to kill it:  Frost Nova and run away.  (That is a symptom of hanging around Silverpine, though, I think--most all of the stronger monsters there are undead, demons, or elementals, and not eligible for sheeping.  Around my level at least; I don't know about high level monsters.)

This is a fine tactic for solo play. That said, solo play and group play are completely different things, even more so for mages. "That's what I do in solo" corresponds more closely with "so that's not what I should do in group play" than with "that's what I should be doing in group play".

[shameless plug] More info [/shameless plug]

I guess I was just trying to provide some on-the-run benefit to my party.  But I figure now that it wasn't much of one.  I mean, Frost Nova only makes enemies immobile, right, not slowed or anything?
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That's right. It only roots them for up to eight seconds, and damage inflicted to the rooted targets has a fairly high chance to break the effect; in group play, expect the ice around them to break rapidly. It's a good thing to use if the party's going to run, but generally parties are less inclined to run than individual players, even if someone tells the party to run. If no one says "run", then it'll be extremely unlikely that anyone will attempt to flee.

[Pantalaimon]

So if you're already up on them, and have to be to kill them, it's not a good thing.  Particularly when you seem to think that the best thing to do when a monster is in your face is try to cast fireball repeatedly.  *shakes fist at annoying party* 
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You're pretty much bang on. If there's no tank and you're a cloth type, and the group is badly organized, your best bet would probably to mentally go "screw aggro management" on ONE of the mobs. The frost nova thing managed to give you aggro of all three, whereas had you just gone crazy with fireblast/AM on one of the guys you'd have one in your face and your party'd be dealing with two in their face. Much better odds.

(This is basically what Skan's saying :P )

[Bob the Beholder]

You're pretty much bang on.  If there's no tank and you're a cloth type, and the group is badly organized, your best bet would probably to mentally go "screw aggro management" on ONE of the mobs.  The frost nova thing managed to give you aggro of all three, whereas had you just gone crazy with fireblast/AM on one of the guys you'd have one in your face and your party'd be dealing with two in their face.  Much better odds.

(This is basically what Skan's saying  :P )
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Oh, yeah, I get that now. Just one more reminder--reading the Lurker Lounge (and in particular for this case Skandranon's Mage Guide) has given me a leg up on strategy and tactics over your average player... but I'm still new to the game (four days off = constant playing = level 18 mage with less than a week of play), so I need to practice/learn more before I can really apply it.

And, really, the comment I made there about spamming fireball in the enemy's face was just about the choice of fireball. Like Skan's guide says, five easy points you should get by level 14 gives you the ultimate choice for close range casting: Arcane Missiles.

Yet, every mage I've partied with has favored Fireball or Frostbolt at mide/close range. Even in situations where Aggro management/mana efficiency is not much of a factor.

Even more illogical was the spell choice of a mage in the party I was talking about. He would always use Frost Bolt to draw the enemies, and Fireball to cast at close range.

I know Frost Bolt is a perfectly viable opener--even very useful with the slowing effect--but in this particular case it just seems flipped around. Fireball has the longer range, which allows you to stay farther away from the enemies. And when the enemies are closer (if you're set on choosing one or ther other) Frost Bolt would slow them down, so that you can more easily get out of melee range for better casting.

Of course, this is also the mage who asked me how to assign Talent points, so I'm guessing his knowledge of the game really isn't very extensive yet.

[Skandranon]

I know Frost Bolt is a perfectly viable opener--even very useful with the slowing effect--but in this particular case it just seems flipped around.  Fireball has the longer range, which allows you to stay farther away from the enemies.  And when the enemies are closer (if you're set on choosing one or ther other) Frost Bolt would slow them down, so that you can more easily get out of melee range for better casting. 
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Call it serendipitous, but Frostbolt is actually the better choice in this kind of situation. Fireball's range advantage isn't that significant at just 35, since you're rarely firing at exactly 35 yards. Especially with another mage in the party, it's important to get that snare on right away so that both of you can benefit. As for close range, it's missiles all the way, and Frostbolt because it casts faster - not because of the snare. Even with a maxed Winter's Chill, you won't be able to move far enough away to make a meaningful difference in terms of casting interruption.

Of course, in any situation with even a pseudotank, he shouldn't have been pulling. But given the shabby organization, pulling with Frostbolt is more or less the best play available.

[LochnarITB]

Wait, what?  You what?  Why...why did you do that?
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Frost nova is not always a bad thing. In this case, with a poor party, it most certainly was. However, if you have one or more bad guys aggro on you, you can actually deliver them to the tank to be tagged. If you move up to the tank, bringing the mobs with you, a nova pins them down. If you have a good tank, they will recognize what you are doing and they will tag them and you can safely move back and do your mage thing. You have to be aware of your surroundings when doing so. If you have a sheep in the vicinity, you're back to no no. Also, if you happen to be fighting among nasty yellows, you don't want to be popping frost novas or you'll add them to the battle too. Use of frost nova can also go hand in hand with the disposable nature of the mage. If you see the tank/healer being swarmed and likely to go down, using frost nova (and other aoe spells) can draw enough off of the critical party members to let them gain the upper hand. If the mage goes down, it has hopefully given the others time to reduce the enemy numbers and a quick after battle res and everyone's good to go. Good play is understanding exactly how your tools work and when to apply them.

[Skandranon]

Frost nova is not always a bad thing.
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Nor did I say it was. I was criticizing the automatic, instinctive use of Frost Nova against multiple targets that altogether too many mages exhibit. Frost Nova's use in group play, as you pointed out, is mostly for specific emergency situations among reasonably coordinated groups, which is not that frequently the case.

[LochnarITB]

Nor did I say it was.
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I'm sorry for the way I quoted there. I hadn't intended on it being critical of you. I just wanted BtB to understand that there are ways to use frost nova and other AoE spells in a party situation. As with all things, cost must be weighed against results. The more info the player has, the better that decision can be made.