Tanks and Tankery

[Tal]

Bah, Shield Wall sucks.  Retaliation is a better skill in every way, especially if you hit Sweeping Strikes before you activate it.
The downside is that I can only pull that stunt every thirty minutes :(
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This is why shield wall doesn't suck. Just different means to the same end. I'd be interested to hear how well these strategies work when you get to Temple, BRD, Scholomance and the like.

[Artega]

Shield Wall, Recklessness, and Retaliation all run on the same timer, Tal. If I use any of them, the other ones can't be used for the same thirty minutes. It's just that I'd rather have free counterattacks or fear immunity and criticals rather than ten seconds of partial immunity.

[Rinnhart]

or even better if we can find someone who was stupid enough to go Protection specced
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Another month or so, when there's enough people at the "high end" to start raiding, I promise you'll be seeing more and more "stupid" Protection warriors.

[Artega]

Another month or so, when there's enough people at the "high end" to start raiding, I promise you'll be seeing more and more "stupid" Protection warriors.
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Unlikely, Rinnhart. Protection specced means you expect people to be hitting you - if you're the proverbial brick #$%&house, they're going to ignore you and kill your friends first. Sure, you may have the guards following you around like you're some kind of minor god(dess) to them, but the guards will still kick your ass if you don't have a priest healing you constantly.

Warriors = Arms. It's really that simple.

[Treesh]

Unlikely, Rinnhart.  Protection specced means you expect people to be hitting you - if you're the proverbial brick #$%&house, they're going to ignore you and kill your friends first.  Sure, you may have the guards following you around like you're some kind of minor god(dess) to them, but the guards will still kick your ass if you don't have a priest healing you constantly.

Warriors = Arms.  It's really that simple.
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And in a raid you will actually have healers keeping you alive. And if the people know what they're doing, the defensive warriors can keep aggro and protect the squishy people. It's really not as useless of a branch as you seem to think. It may not fit your playstyle, it may not be your chosen way to play, but it is not useless.

[Tal]

Unlikely, Rinnhart.  Protection specced means you expect people to be hitting you - if you're the proverbial brick #$%&house, they're going to ignore you and kill your friends first.  Sure, you may have the guards following you around like you're some kind of minor god(dess) to them, but the guards will still kick your ass if you don't have a priest healing you constantly.

Warriors = Arms.  It's really that simple.
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There is more to raids then attacking opposing towns. Against a mob like Onyxia, at least in the later stages of Beta, you need a protection specc'd warrior to keep aggro but also to survive long enough to not need constant healing. And I would say that there is more to building a warrior than running down the arms tree. :)

[Artega]

And in a raid you will actually have healers keeping you alive.  And if the people know what they're doing, the defensive warriors can keep aggro and protect the squishy people.  It's really not as useless of a branch as you seem to think.  It may not fit your playstyle, it may not be your chosen way to play, but it is not useless.
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Again, I have to disagree. In all of the raids I've been on, every Warrior has been cannon fodder. Maybe I'm just trying it wrong, but Warriors have a serious disadvantage against most opponents in solo PvP (especially Paladins with their cheapass Hammer of Judgement >_< ), and fare even worse in group PvP. The only truely useful talent the Protection tree offers in terms of PvP warfare is Concussion Blow, and you can do that only once ever 45 seconds, and it's Next Melee and not instant. And on top of that, you can't use Hamstring - the Warrior's only viable PvP snare - in Defensive Stance.

Compared to Shaman, Warriors take a backseat in damage-dealing, and that's the only conceivable reason you'd draw "player aggro" without some kind of seriously debilitating abilities, such as sheeping or debuffing.

Frankly, I think Warriors need a generic boost, while Shaman and Paladins need a generic nerf. But then again, my view is somewhat biased :)

[Artega]

There is more to raids then attacking opposing towns. Against a mob like Onyxia, at least in the later stages of Beta, you need a protection specc'd warrior to keep aggro but also to survive long enough to not need constant healing. And I would say that there is more to building a warrior than running down the arms tree. :)
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True, but by time you find a group viable to (attempt) taking down Onyxia, I don't think it would be hard to say you could find some good sword-and-board items and enough money for a quick respec :)

[Artega]

This is why shield wall doesn't suck. Just different means to the same end. I'd be interested to hear how well these strategies work when you get to Temple, BRD, Scholomance and the like.
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As of Uldaman, pulling that stunt without telling my party generally gets me killed, but also generally winds up with all of the mobs dying with me, or leaving a single mob with a smidgeon of HP left. Defensive Stance is definitely starting to shine in the harder parts of Uldaman, but it still lacks AE Taunting capabilities like Battle Stance.

EDIT: I should add that while Shield Wall will definitely keep me living through that little stunt, it won't cause nearly enough aggro to keep them on me AFTER the stunt ends, and since it doesn't weaken the mobs at all, it means that I have a few precious seconds of near-invulnerability with everything on me, after which they go back to what they were doing (generally killing the squishies, since I don't pull said stunt unless everything's gone to hell.) Case in point - the battle with Grimlok. We did this a bit early (I was 42, and everyone else was between 38 and 41), and we decided that I would drink a Rage potion, run in, hit Bloodrage, and spam Thunder Clap and Dem Shout to soak up some hate. After it was established, I would hit Shield Wall while the two shaman in our group killed the helpers and pet. It worked well until Shield Wall ended - Grimlok chose to Shrink everyone at that point (whee! Fun-sized Tauren!), and although I had everything FIRMLY glued to me, I died a horrible death from all the beatings raining down on me.

Take two, we finally get back to Grimlok (someone PLEASE explain why half the entire damned instance pops inside of 45 minutes.) Noting the defensive take's previous failure, we resolve to beat the crap out of everything before they beat the crap out of us. I pick my big hammer out of my pack and Charge Grimlok with Shield on. I promptly hit Retaliation followed by Challenging Shout, while the shaman plant totems and the priests heal. By time Retaliation is ended, Grimlok is at half HP, his Geomancer buddy is dead, his Brawler buddy is hanging on by a thread, and his pet is also very dead. I switch to Berserker Stance to spam Whirlwind, and finish Grimlok with an Execute that critted for 1189. The only downside is that it took us two tries, and he dropped the cloth armor instead of the juicy polearm.

I guess the lesson learned is that versatility is the key to playing a good Warrior :)

[Taeme]

My stealth abilities are nominal so I tend not to use them.&nbsp; I’ve actually had warriors snap at me and tell me to play a rogue (meaning stealth over combat), not a fighter, even though I’ve pointed out they’re dying and I’m not, and I’m leveling faster than just about anyone else I know.

That's rather awful. I understand your pain. Warriors are basically next to Shaman in the book of 'people who suck' for me, but mostly because so many warriors seem either not know how to tank, or to strugle above all else to be dps in groups even though they're not suited to it.

Warriors are not dps, they're tank, but you're also a form of crowd control. Why should they be pulling stuff off you? Melee dps should be the one everyone is assisting. The warriors should be swapping targets to pull off stuff going after cloth, while everyone fires on what you're firing on, since you're cranking out the damage to keep solo aggro on you.

The best rogues I've grouped with have pulled with sap knocking out one guy then picked a target that we all pile on while the warrior (who is still very important!) keeps us squishies clothing from dying horribly. Well the other squishie clothies, I have 2.6k health@42...

[Tal]

I guess the lesson learned is that versatility is the key to playing a good Warrior :)
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I thought we were both going around Robin Hood's barn to the same conclusion. :) the group I had in Uldaman just before the end of Beta had no problems with that same encounter but that was prior to some of the more recent warrior "changes" and we had a healing-specc'd paladin that was trying to outheal the priest. :rolleyes:

[Tal]

True, but by time you find a group viable to (attempt) taking down Onyxia, I don't think it would be hard to say you could find some good sword-and-board items and enough money for a quick respec :)
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Heh. By Beta end I was facing a gold defecit with every failed raid. ;)

[Treesh]

Again, I have to disagree.&nbsp; In all of the raids I've been on, every Warrior has been cannon fodder.&nbsp; Maybe I'm just trying it wrong, but Warriors have a serious disadvantage against most opponents in solo PvP (especially Paladins with their cheapass Hammer of Judgement >_< ), and fare even worse in group PvP.&nbsp; The only truely useful talent the Protection tree offers in terms of PvP warfare is Concussion Blow, and you can do that only once ever 45 seconds, and it's Next Melee and not instant.&nbsp; And on top of that, you can't use Hamstring - the Warrior's only viable PvP snare - in Defensive Stance.

Compared to Shaman, Warriors take a backseat in damage-dealing, and that's the only conceivable reason you'd draw "player aggro" without some kind of seriously debilitating abilities, such as sheeping or debuffing.

Frankly, I think Warriors need a generic boost, while Shaman and Paladins need a generic nerf.&nbsp; But then again, my view is somewhat biased :)
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I was talking about PvE raids, not PvP raids sorry.

[Concillian]

Then again if you do a 5 point critical evisc you're going to get aggro, and there's not much a tank can do to stop that (or you for that matter).&nbsp; So, just hold off for a little after the evisc and let them grab the aggro back.&nbsp; If you have feint, use it.&nbsp; Otherwise just refrain from ss x5 evisc for like 5 seconds until the mob is glued back to the tank.
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1) Eviscerate often does less damage than Rupture (especially if you're using Imp. Rupture) on high level elites simply because Rupture ignores defense. Also the damage from rupture happens over time, which can help a lot with keeping aggro off you.

2) Similarly, Garrotte can do more damage than Ambush as an opener. DoT is very useful for keeping aggro off you. Not only will you build aggro in smaller chunks, allowing your tank a chance to gain aggro at an equal pace, but your feint will actually work when you want to lose aggro, since you haven't outdistanced your tank by much.

3) Use Kidney shot occasionally to help your priest with mana, keeping you useful without pulling mana.

4) Use Feint. Too many rogues ignore the value of feint.

Really with feint you shouldn't have a huge problem with pulling aggro unless your tank is really bad at keeping it. Learn when your tank sucks and when you are doing too much burst DPS. Don't be afraid to tell a tank that sucks that he does. More often than not, the guy will have nothing in protection and/or isn't using defensive stance/Seal of Fury.

As has been said, Rogues cannot tank period. If for no other reason than they will be a huge mana-suck on the healer, as a properly speced (at least somewhat defensive) warrior or paladin has at least 3x the armor rating of a rogue. Generally a good shield at any level has approximately the same amount of armor as an equivalet full suit of leather armor, boots, gloves, etc...

Rogues are very effective in instances. Improved Sap is nearly a must though. You WILL be turned away from parties without Improved Sap. And there are VERY effective rogue builds that spend VERY few points in the Combat tree. With a build that gets Preparation and Improved CS out of the subtlety tree and Cold Blood from the Assassination tree, you have a rogue that is very effective in solo, instance, and PvP play. Also Hemorrgage is pretty useful as it is the cheapest attack that gains a combo point AND allows your tank to deal more damage = more aggro for him.

The problem with rogues in instances is often the player and not the class. Too many people play the same as 1 on 1 PvE, and that is just detrimenal to the party. Too often these are people spec'ed out to be a one-trick pony, and they get pissed at you when you tell them they aren't a good party fit. Properly spec'ed and played rogues are a HUGE boon to a party, but too many rogues out there are speced ONLY for solo play.