Archery Question

[Occhidiangela]

As we watched Troy last night, my son and I got into a discussion about the "great balls of fire" scene, wherein flaming arrows are loosed, followed by pitch soaked (??) balls of hay rolled down the beach in a Bronze Age Incindiary Attack on the beached Greek ships. (Troy is just now out on DvD, missed it while "elsewhere" this summer.)

Has any Lurker ever shot a real flaming arrow?

As I gather, an effective flaming arrow needs to have a pitch/fuel soaked tip as well as resin/pitch in, or coated on, the shaft of the arrow. As a flaming arrow leaves the bow and flies through the air, the flame is forced by airflow back down the shaft toward the feathers. When it lands, it will typically be tail up. Fire falls up. Ergo, fuel above the flame is required to keep the arrow burning long enough and hot enough to ignite whatever structure/thing you are trying to burn or set on fire.

The Trojan arrows, the flaming pre load, landed in sand. Sand does not burn. The flaming tips would be extinguished when buried in the sand. Assumed the arrows had inflammable agent in the back end to keep them alight in the dunes while awaiting the balls of hay to roll over them.

While it was probably "pure Hollywood" (not to mention the Illiad has Hector leading a sortie out into the ships and setting many of them alight) I found myself at a loss to answer my son: "Could it actually work that way?"

Since the first step is getting a flaming arrow to stay lit and remain on fire, has anyone here shot a flaming arrow successfully?

PS. Enjoyed the film, although Homer would hardly recognize the tale. Well, since he was allegedly blind, he'd not be able to see it anyway.

The film was immensely better than the TV show "Helen of Troy." Saw that some months ago while burning some down time "over there." While the film captured an echo of "the rage of Achilles" it did not delve well into character, though Hector came off as I had always pictured him: brave, noble, doomed. We collectively decided, as a family, that young Orlando had better stick to archery, he aint so hot at melee, and that he really should keep his shirt on. Comment from daughter on Brad Pitt: "Man, he really buffed up for the movie."

PPS: Andromache was soooo much prettier than Helen, in terms of which actress was prettier. If Achilles had stolen Andromache from Troy, would Troy have launched two thousand ships? :whistling: Probably not. As noted in last year's discussion on this topic, any old excuse for a war of conquest would do, since Agamemnon had to keep the Greeks fighting someone or they'd go back to fighting one another, which leaves him with . . . a mess.

PPPS: Grrrr, not pleased with the death of Agamemnon scene. At least the TV mini series got that one right.

Occhi

[TaMeOlta]

One of these days I will learn my lesson and start a 2 hr and 42 minute movie at 8 PM instead of 9:30 PM --- I hafta get up at 5:30 AM for work :P !

Sorry , Occhi , no help on archery from me , but , I thoroughly enjoyed the movie ! The great balls of fire was a brilliant attack , I momentarily thought there was a Druid caster upon the hill ...... :lol:

Another tthing that caught my eye was Achilles signature move/deathblow , and his fighting style using his shield --- I just loved that ! :D

EDIT: must learn to splel :blush:

[Occhidiangela]

One of these days I will learn my lesson and start a 2 hr and 42 minute movie at 8 PM instead of 9:30 PM --- I hafta get up at 5:30 AM for work  :P  !

Sorry , Occhi , no help on archery from me , but , I thoroughly enjoyed the movie ! The  great balls of fire was a brilliant attack , I momentarily thought there was a Druid caster upon the hill ......  :lol:

Another tthing that caught my eye was Achilles signature move/deathblow , and his fighting style using his shield --- I just loved that !  :D

EDIT: must learn to splel  :blush:
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My daughter's comment on Achilles' finishing move was "It was sorta Matrix." That got me grinning. It also raises the issue of speed over power in melee combat.

Note: I do not recall in the Illiad that Ajax died in battle. More Hollywoodisms, or just loss of long term memory.

Occhi

Occhi

[--Pete]

Hi,

No idea on the flaming arrow bit, never having fired non-virtual flames. But in true Lurker fashion I must interject a side topic. :)

Have you heard of the new ISO unit of pulchritude? It's a 'millihellen' -- enough beauty to launch *one* ship :)

--Pete

[Occhidiangela]

Hi,

No idea on the flaming arrow bit, never having fired non-virtual flames.  But in true Lurker fashion I must interject a side topic. :)

Have you heard of the new ISO unit of pulchritude?  It's a 'millihellen' -- enough beauty to launch *one* ship :)

--Pete
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Why yes, I heard of it last year, and again this morning, in an archived post by a guy who calls himself Pete. :D The conspiracy lives!!!!

Went searching the Lounge archives on Troy, unsure what commentary went on Loungeside when that film came out. Ran across the millihelen reference. It got a smile out of me yet again.

In the interest of angels dancing on the head of a pin, I will offer that the minimum required beauty to launch one ship, your ISO standard millihelen, represents a minimum standard, similar to fogging a mirror. One may be allowed to launch a ship with a centihellen beauty, although not with a microhellen, such as Jabba the Hut's mother: that sort of "beauty" would more likely launch my lunch.

Many is the ship that has been launched by nice looking, if not gorgeous, ladies, with the minimum standard devolving to the millihelenesque "Mrs Judge Smails" in Caddyshack. She probably establishes the ISO millihellen quantitative measurement, similar to the standard metre bar somewhere in Paris, when she smashes a champagne bottle across the bowsprit of The Flying Wasp in that memorable scene . . . memorable, that is, for fanatics of Caddyshacd/golf. :blush:

What's a cubit? Are we done here? I think so, caffeine still roaring through the veins.

Occhi

[kandrathe]

Results of my research;

The Korean Hwajon : incendiary arrow
This arrow with a thread-wound head is a form of an old arrow that was used for attacks against castles or ships with fire. At the core of the arrowhead is located a lump of an explosive which was wrapped with papers and linens, and then coated with wax. This incendiary arrow was well designed, so the fuse kept fire during flying until the core explosive set a big fire at the target. The original arrow was about 80 cm long.

The key of what I read on this was that the incendiary part was made using the ancient equivalent of napalm, "greek fire" and may have been more complicated than just an impregnated wad strapped to an arrow.

[Rhydderch Hael]

...What's a cubit?  Are we done here?  I think so, caffeine still roaring through the veins.

Occhi
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I'm probably walking straight into the role of straight man in a burlesque act, but a cubit is a unit of measure where one uses the length of one's own forearm and flattened hand. I measure furniture by cubits when moving, as a means to fit things through doorways and whatnot. Easier than unrolling a measuring tape every thirty seconds.

I'd have to wonder just how soaking/coating the shaft of an arrow would affect its flight balance or long-term caisson storage (warpage and whatnot).

[Baajikiil]

A quick search brought up this similiar discussion.

Flaming arrows

It appears there are a few books on the subject(at least one is referenced in the thread I linked to), and that flaming arrows were certainly used many times in the past. As for that specific scene, it's harder to tell if it could actually happen.

[Occhidiangela]

I'm probably walking straight into the role of straight man in a burlesque act, but a cubit is a unit of measure where one uses the length of one's own forearm and flattened hand. I measure furniture by cubits when moving, as a means to fit things through doorways and whatnot. Easier than unrolling a measuring tape every thirty seconds.

I'd have to wonder just how soaking/coating the shaft of an arrow would affect its flight balance or long-term caisson storage (warpage and whatnot).
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:whistling:

Rhydd.

"What's a cubit" is an old Bill Cosby gag, from one of his well known, to old people like me, routines about Noah building an Ark. Something along these lines:

God: Noah, the rain is coming. You should build an ark.
Noah: Right. (pause) What's an ark?
God: It is a boat, Noah.
Noah: Right. How big is it.
God: 300 cubits by 60 cubits by 40 cubits.
Noah: Right! (Pause) What's a cubit?

Perhaps this was a "there is no spoon." Pseudo cultural-contextual reference.

Occhi

:D PS: Baajkill, thanks for the nice link and the reference to the book:

GREEK FIRE, POISON ARROWS & SCORPION BOMBS" by Adrienne Mayor

[jahcs]

The millihelen may be the form of measure to launch a ship, but I would question whether the unit of measure is beauty or money. The hopeless romantic in me pines for the former and the realist in me stands firmly by the latter. Many people in our society confuse the two. Paris Hilton anyone?

edit: Kindergarten and Noah: Right! are two of my favorite Cosby bits. I remember laying on the floor listening to Bill Cosby on my Dad's Reel to Reel and trying to stop laughing because my sides hurt. -- And how many Lurkers know how to use a Reel to Reel?

[kandrathe]

Paris Hilton anyone?
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In regards to her in our modern times, perhaps it is our puritancally repressed fascination with the "bad" girl, rather than the "bad" boy. There are plenty of male celebrities out putting many more notches into their belts weekly, yet it is still the girl who has fallen. I don't think it is much of a secret anymore that individuals of both sexes enjoy expressing their sexuality, frequently. I wouldn't have wanted the paparrazi dogging me when I was younger, single, and clubbing.

Besides, I've always preferred women who can have an intellectual conversation, rather than just the face/bod that would launch boats.

[Doc]

Flaming arrows are just as dangerous to the archer as they are to anybody else.

Arrows intended to be ignited must be somewhat longer than regular arrows, otherwise, when you pull and hold ready, you run a chance of igniting your bow. Fuel, in what ever form, does dribble a bit down the shaft and ends up on your bow. The more arrows you fire, the greater your chances of igniting your bow, your hands, your face, and whatever else is around during the flash. Fuel comes in many forms. Tar, pitch, oils of various types, etc. Oil soaked rags wrapped around the tips. Igniting the arrows is also a dangerous task, as, on occasion, when you go to light them from the brazier, or what ever firepit is handy, you run a chance of igniting the fumes coming from your arrow, if your fuel source puts off a lot of vapours. Flaming arrows were worth the risk through, for many armies, for the great amounts of damage they did and the psychological damage as well. Many archers met their death, burned to a crisp, felled by their own flaming arrows. There has, as far as I know, never been a fool proof system to keep the flames managed, and, many wise leaders did not use veteran archers for flaming arrow duty. Hollywood has made the flaming arrow volleys look effortless, when in truth, they were nightmares of hell. The worst part was when the arrow was loosed, as burning globules of fuel would shimmy off the arrow and land all over you, catching you on fire. Arrow goes forward, burning blobs of fuel stay in one place. Physics is a bitch.

I read in a book a good while back about failed efforts of Mongol horse mounted archers to fire flaming arrows from horseback. Just thinking about the danger in this task gives me the shivers.

Yes, I have fired flaming arrows. No, I don't plan on doing it again any time soon. I LIKE my eyebrows and my facial hair. I don't advise any of you folk try it either.

[jahcs]

In regards to her in our modern times, perhaps it is our puritancally repressed fascination with the "bad" girl, rather than the "bad" boy.  There are plenty of male celebrities out putting many more notches into their belts weekly, yet it is still the girl who has fallen.  I don't think it is much of a secret anymore that individuals of both sexes enjoy expressing their sexuality, frequently.  I wouldn't have wanted the paparrazi dogging me when I was younger, single, and clubbing.

Besides, I've always preferred women who can have an intellectual conversation, rather than just the face/bod that would launch boats.
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I wasn't reffering to her "exploits." Just the size of her pocketbook and the fact that I don't think her face could launch a rowboat, let alone a ship.

[TaMeOlta]

You'd think that more people would be afraid of someone who's face was used as a boat launch ........ :unsure:

[Doc]

The millihelen may be the form of measure to launch a ship, but I would question whether the unit of measure is beauty or money.  The hopeless romantic in me pines for the former and the realist in me stands firmly by the latter.  Many people in our society confuse the two.  Paris Hilton anyone?

edit:  Kindergarten and Noah: Right! are two of my favorite Cosby bits.  I remember laying on the floor listening to Bill Cosby on my Dad's Reel to Reel and trying to stop laughing because my sides hurt.  -- And how many Lurkers know how to use a Reel to Reel?
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Reel to reel? BAH! I like my music on wax cylinders. You young punks have it made with your fancy electricity and motorized reels. I remember when you had to crank your old Victrola by hand.

I have some very very old Billie Holiday on wax.

[Tal]

<snip> and the fact that I don't think her face could launch a rowboat, let alone a ship.
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Oh I dunno. If you hit the boat hard enough it should launch.... ;)

[--Pete]

Hi,

After reading some of the posts on this topic, I did a little thinking. It occured to me that arrows *are* rocket science. Or at least ballistic missile science :)

Now most of this, a pilot (and even an aviator) would know -- so this is really a general reply to the thread ;)

Any object that is going to fly through the air is either going to fly 'straight' or tumble. If an object tumbles, it doesn't make a good weapon since (without a lot of practice by the thrower, as in knife throwing) it is more likely that it will hit blunt end/side first rather than point first. To ensure that the object will fly straight is a simple exercise in aerodynamics.

Basically, there are two quantities of importance, the center of mass and the center of pressure. In the case of something like an arrow or a spear (i.e., long thin objects) the center of mass is just the point where the object balances. So, for instance, the center of mass of a naked arrow shaft is just the center of the shaft. When the head and the feathers (fletching) have been added, the center of mass is closer to the head of the arrow since the head now weighs more.

The center of pressure is a little more complicated, but essential it is just where the object would 'balance' in the wind. Think of suspending the item so that it is free to pivot horizontally. Now let a wind blow on the item. Move the point at which the item is suspended back and forth until the item has no tendency to line up with the wind. The place where the pivot is located when this happens is the center of pressure. In model rocketry, a simple trick is used to determine the center of pressure. The two dimensional outline of the rocket is cut from uniform carboard. Where the outline balances is the center of pressure of the three dimensional rocket. In the case of an arrow, the center of pressure is towards the tail because the feathers have a greater cross section than the arrowhead does, so there's more there for the wind to catch.

Now, once these two quantities are found, 'straight' flight is simple to figure. An object wants to fly with the center of mass ahead of the center of pressure. A naked arrow shaft is right on the border. If launched without a twist, it might go straight. Firing an arrow, however, always introduces a twist. To achieve true stability, the center of mass has to be well ahead of the center of pressure. Normally this is true.

The conclusions from this simple analysis is that at the front of the arrow we want dense stuff and at the back we want fluffy stuff. Taking a normal arrow, wrapping a bunch of cloth (or grass, or whatever) around the front of the arrow, and soaking it with oil or pitch puts a lot of low density stuff at the wrong end. So, in addition to putting the fire a little further from the archer, this gives another reason why longer than usual arrows would be needed. Add to that the fact that a lot more fluffy stuff will be need to be at the back end to regain stability, and the drag on the arrow becomes monstrous.

Were fire arrows occasionally used? Probably. But they sure don't sound like a Good Idea for general warfare.

--Pete

[kandrathe]

I wasn't reffering to her "exploits."&nbsp; Just the size of her pocketbook and the fact that I don't think her face could launch a rowboat, let alone a ship.
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She is not hideous. Maybe not 1000 ships beautiful, but better than average looks. Do you live in a commune of Victoria Secret models?

[kandrathe]

Reel to reel? BAH! I like my music on wax cylinders. You young punks have it made with your fancy electricity and motorized reels. I remember when you had to crank your old Victrola by hand.

I have some very very old Billie Holiday on wax.
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We have one room in my house devoted to the non-electric with a fireplace, hurricane lamps, and an old console victrola that my grandparents bought during the 20's(it seems my grandma was a flapper in her day). We go there and play board games and listen to old records when the power goes out, which in the stormy spring at times seems as frequent as many a third world nation. Over the years we have accumulated many hundreds of pounds of old victrola records that are bought at antique stores, much of it foxtrots, swing, and old classical stuff like Paganini and Caruso.

[Occhidiangela]

She is not hideous.&nbsp; Maybe not 1000 ships beautiful, but better than average looks.&nbsp; Do you live in a commune of Victoria Secret models?
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And if he does live in that commune, does he buy vitamin E by the barrel? :D