The Tank

[Artega]

In response to MJ's call for content, I'm intending of putting together a guide to the true warrior - the TANK. Currently I'm playing the standard (sheep!) Arms/Fury Warrior, but I've come to realize that Warriors (as far as groups go) aren't DPS - they're frickin tanks! While my generic PvP (especially solo) will suffer due to the loss of pretty much every DPS ability Arms and Fury offer, I'll still be able to tie up guards with tons of aggro-grabbing stuff, and I can still be effective against most opponents due to my incessant stun-whoring, especially if they hit back.

Currently, the talents I'm planning on respecing to are these:

Protection

Shield Specialization 5/5 - I'm gonna use a shield, so this is a no-brainer.

Toughness 5/5 - I'm gonna be a tank. More Armor means a meatier meatshield.

Improved Bloodrage 2/2 - I love Bloodrage. This just gives me more reason to spam it, especially since I won't be getting better rage-generation from Unbridled Wrath.

Last Stand 1/1 - The logical conclusion to getting Improved Bloodrage. Combined with Challenging Shout and (Improved) Shield Wall, this could make for the ultimate "Oh, #$%&" combination of uber-tankage.

Improved Shield Block 3/3 - Makes it a bit more useful as a reliable skill instead of a quick way to trigger Revenge.

Improved Revenge 3/3 - Part one of stun-whoring. Will drive enemy Warriors and Paladins up the walls.

Improved Taunt 2/2 - Need a place to put the last two points for tier5 abilties, and I'd rather have a faster Taunt than more armor reduction or a slightly longer Disarm.

Improved Shield Wall 2/2 - Brings Shield Wall up to Retaliation's and Recklessness' level in terms of duration.

Improved Shield Bash 2/2 - 100% chance to silence the target for three seconds. How is that EVER bad? Shut the casters up!

Concussion Blow 1/1 - Five second stun once every forty-five seconds. Part two of being a total stun-whore.

One-handed Weapon Specialization 5/5 - Improved, it now brings my melee damage up to par, but it's more for solo and PvP effectiveness than tanking effectiveness, though increased damage output will generate a little extra hate.

Shield Discipline 1/1 - The gem of Protection, arguably (I think it's Improved Shield Bash.) For the next twenty seconds, Shield Bash deals triple damage and double threat, and your shield absords an extra 50% damage. Forty-five second cooldown.

Arms Talents

Deflection 5/5 - Makes you wonder why this isn't in Protection. Increases your Parry chance, reducing damage taken, and making you a little less dependant on Shield Block for activating Revenge.

Tactical Mastery 3/5 - Versatility is the key to an effective Warrior, and 15 Rage is enough to squeeze off a quick Intercept or Hamstring in PvP. Nice to have for PvE just the same.

Fury Talents

Cruelty 5/5 - We aren't damage-focused, but I just can't pass this skill up. It's just too damn good.

Improved Demoralizing Shout 5/5 - The Warrior's key debuff, further reduces damage taken.

Piercing Howl 1/1 - The only snare you have in Defensive Stance, and it's a good one. Limited use in PvP.

Obviously, we're trading damage output for staying ablility. With the best Protection has to offer, this build redefines what it means to be a tank, and makes you a threat even in PvP because of your difficulty in being killed, and all of the constant stun-whoring. Plus, Improved Shield Bash will downright piss off every single caster that you come across. Even if they aren't casting a spell, you can bash them your shield for three seconds to shut them up for three seconds, and when they DO get their spells back, you can switch to Berserker Stance to Pummel them for thinking that you're gonna let them cast a spell. Toss in a Concussive Blow to let Shield Bash's timer regenerate, and repeat. Casters will cry when they see you.

This build is also meant to take full advantage of the Tauren's two biggest racial bonuses - +5% to HP and the ever-lovely War Stomp. War Stomp is the third and final step in stun-whoring. It can affect up to five targets, and stuns for two seconds. Use it in place of Concussion Blow in PvP, or when you want to give your healers a couple precious seconds to heal in PvE when everything goes to hell.

Piercing Howl should be kept up at most times during PvE to keep mobs from tearing off after the squishies, and helps out other snarers in your group. Don't forget to spam Demoralizing Shout to reduce damage taken and generate extra hate, though. Switching to Battle Stance for Hamstring might be better in PvP, though, even though its snare effects are less.

Finally, you should either become or find an Armorsmith to feel the full benefits of this build. With the full Thorium armor set, you'll have +46 to all of your resistances, not counting possible resistances on your cloak/rings/trinkets. Casters will not only cry when they see you, they'll also spam the Blizzard Suggestion board with how broken Warriors are.

You're going to want to focus on Stamina as your primary attribute to take full advantage of the HP bonus you get from being Tauren, and then add to Strength to increase the amount of damage your shield will absorb for you.

With shields having more than 2000 Armor at the endgame, and with Plate armor pieces having between 300 and 800 Armor, your Toughness talent will probably be giving you an 800-1000 Armor bonus, making you incredibly hard to kill with physical damage. Toss in moderate to high resistances, and you're going to be basically unkillable. People will refuse to fight you in PvP because they'll run out of mana or break their weapons before they even come close to killing you :)

EDIT: I'm torn over what order to get the talents in. I'm thinking of getting Deflection, Cruelty, and Tactical Mastery first, then rushing to Shield Discipline, then finishing up with Piercing Howl, but that's a long time without a snare in Defensive, but it's not TOO hard to shift stances for a quick Hamstring. Any ideas?

[stabby]

Seems like a good start. One correction, though -- much to my dismay, despite having different recharge times, shield bash and pummel have linked timers, and cannot be used consecutively.

Talent suggestions: swap 2 points of Improved Shield Block over to Improved Tactical Mastery. After the first point, Imp Shield Block only extends the duration of the skill, not the number of times it increases your block percentage for. You may want to play around with using Defiance, as well, since this is primarily a defensive stance build. I can't comment on the relative usefulness of Improved Bloodrage (I'm way too timid with the Bloodrage button, alas) and Last Stand, since I don't have them, but Last Stand doesn't strike me as all that useful. In situations where I'm low enough on HP for that extra 30% to mean anything, my healer is already eating dirt. It may have some solo utility, but I remain skeptical. Maybe I'll pick it up and play around with it.

Your stat priorty should be stamina, but not to the point of neglecting strength. It's hard enough to hold mobs against a blinged up rogue when you have good gear if they start spamming their specials too early (getting peeled at the start of a fight is a pain, since not getting hit means even less rage gain, not to mention less aggro build and less stuns from revenge), if you're not doing at least decent baseline damage, things will get bad, quickly. Something that may be worth looking at are items that add to your defense skill, as this is what your block and parry statistics are derived from.

Your proposed talent order is good, though, especially because you plan to whore stuns, which are (in groups) better than, or (solo) at least nicely supplement a snare effect. Hamstring is also cheap enough to fall in under the tactical mastery points you've got laid out, which is good enough, given how fast stance switching is.

[Tal]

I can't comment on the relative usefulness of Improved Bloodrage (I'm way too timid with the Bloodrage button, alas) and Last Stand, since I don't have them, but Last Stand doesn't strike me as all that useful.  In situations where I'm low enough on HP for that extra 30% to mean anything, my healer is already eating dirt.  It may have some solo utility, but I remain skeptical.  Maybe I'll pick it up and play around with it.
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It's pretty good actually to prolong a fight when things go wrong and allow your healer to get off a heal on you. I have had several times when I hit Last Stand and was saved at the last minute because a back-up healer was able to get one of their heals off. :)

[Concillian]

Personally, I'd pull two out of Imp. shield block and two from Imp. taunt and put them in Defiance. But that's just me.

If you're using Imp shield block, I think the extra time is pretty negligible. difference between 6.5 and 5.5 seconds when it only works for 2 blocks? Totally negligible.

Improved Taunt is nice, but so is having mobs stuck to the tank. I think defiance has greater value.

The rest looks pretty solid though.

[Olon97]

Glad you're taking on the project. I got too busy playing my war to finish my talent guide on the Basin Wikki.

For the purpose of writing a tank guide, I would advise against locking into an exact talent build (at the very least label it "example"). Tanking isn't an exact talent spec, it's a state of mind. As long as you're focusing on keeping everything attacking you, and not dying before a healer can repair you, you're a tank, and there are many ways to accomplish the task. Within the range there are options that have better damage output / rage generation, and options that have better damage mitigation.

For instance, my warrior is going for a Unbridled Wrath, Piercing Howl, Enrage, Flurry (only 3 points), Imp. Revenge, Defiance, Imp. Shield Block (1 point), Concussion Blow, and Imp. Shield Bash (other obvious choices omitted) build. I certainly consider her a tank despite being 23 Def. 28 Fury. Perhaps a lighter model tank than a pure protection build (a bradley fighting vehicle maybe?), but still a toon quite capable of keeping monsters on her and not giving the healer too many headaches.

[edit: other good tank archetypes would be:
- Sweeping Strikes + Conc Blow + Imp Shield Bash + Cruelty + 2 unbridled (yes, you can tank in Battle stance... on some pulls),
or
- Deep Wounds + +4 Tac Mas + Imp Overpower (quick stance swap required) + Conc Blow + Imp Shield Bash + Piercing Howl. (Stay in def most of the time, but a Dodge = overpower = deep wounds = nice extra aggro lock.)]

The most useful contribution, which no-one has taken up yet but would be very appropriate to come from a LL source would be a comparitive study on aggro generation of warrior skills, along with rage efficiency of the top hate generators. Word on the street is that sunder armor is one of the best aggro builder's for the rage, but nobody (that I know of) has published rigorous testing of the various skills & aggro.

Complete agreement on leaving Imp. Shield block at one talent point. I can't think of the last time I used Sheild block and didn't have both blocks used within the time allowed with just one talent point placed. If it takes longer, I'm probably not in danger and a healer won't notice the difference.

If you're discussing stuns in a PvP context, don't forget to discuss the diminishing returns and what that means for the order you want to use your stuns in. If you lead off with charge, you're using your 100% duration stun on the crappiest stun in your arsenal. Better stun for the money (assuming you can still close-in / engage) would be using concussion blow first for the full effect and then revenges / intercepts if the opportunities are there. Obviously, the right choice of stun order depends on the tactical demands of the particular situation.

As for build order, I prefer going to Piercing Howl first thing as the extra crit damage is nice for leveling and having two AoE taunts instead of one helps hold aggro. I did Piercing Howl then Concussion blow to reach 41 and felt it went well. In retrospect, I may have even gone all fury at first just to speed up leveling and tagged on the prot skills at the end, but that would have made me a less durable tank in the interm (and I'm too cheap to respec for a change in order).

Another thing that would be good is a few examples of how you lock aggro (assuming the rest of the group is somewhat competent) against pulls of various sizes. For example, single pulls are pretty straight forward, but 4 or more it makes sense to toss in a Whirlwind before switching to defensive stance, and a 2-3 pull with hard hitters can be tricky due to rage management (that's where I most often pop a rage potion for quick demo/piercing h/sunders for everyone). Don't forget challenging shout + revenge for cleaning up pulls gone wrong (or for specific spots where it makes sense - the mobs at the door outside of thermaplug's room in Gnom. are prime candidates for this sort of aggro lock.

A quick note on pulling casters back to the group for the more clueless warriors out there never hurts. You can't always depend on a ranged interrupt/silence from a group member. :P

P.S. I :wub: the new improved bloodrage. Picked it up ASAP after the patch that changed it and keep being reminded of how great it is to get rage without dropping a ton of life each time I use it in combat. Talents that scale as you level never grow old.

[Cryptic]

*shameless intrusion*

This may sound a bit odd, but I think any warrior guide would be incomplete unless it were to include two always-overlooked aspects – communication and social interaction. Warriors need to learn how to communicate effectively with their allies, how to compromise with others' preferences, and how other people want to play the game. Bear with me …

Warriors, as tanks, tend to become the leaders of groups, or at least the callers during battle. Rarely, this role falls to the priest or the puller, but it usually seems to be the tank. (Keep in mind I'm speaking from personal experience, but it is experience.) A lack of communication between the tank and the rest of the group leads to huge misunderstandings when rule #1 (Things Will Go Wrong) comes into play. Everyone can know what they’re supposed to do in ideal situations, but without knowledge of what to do when things are falling to pieces, everyone tends to fall back on their own individual survival template, which works against the group cohesion and tends to hasten the dismal end.

Hence, an essay on warrior communication should break down into three quick sections. First, the initial “lecture” given to a new group to let them know what their expected roles are for maximized efficiency. Second, quick-key codes that can be typed during battle to signify specific actions and to let the group know what the warrior is doing / planning / thinking of doing. And third, how to keep things somewhat controlled when everything falls to pieces and group cohesion is threatened. The alternative (which unfortunately is the only situation I’ve so far experienced) is the warrior dying and blaming everyone else for being “stupid” and letting their mind-reading skills go on the fritz, and for being "bad dogs" and not taking barked orders properly.

Which leads into the social part of things …

I understand that warriors are the keystone of high-level parties that are running instances. They are also the reason why I refuse to join any group that includes a warrior, ever. I don’t like being yelled at, “schooled,” or being made to curb my play style to cater to someone else’s “better” way of doing things ... especially when that "better" way ends up giving me less treasure, less gold, and less experience per hour. I’ve been lectured by warriors on how to play a “real” rogue so many times that I’ve given up on them, and gone on to strictly solo play. I'm doing just fine, thank you, and I can afford better equipment at the AH than what you're wearing, with money left over, without having to roll for things against you that you don't even need. (Why did you need a leather chestpiece when you're wearing plate? Why? Why?!? And then you get furious when I compete for the one-handed sword, which I actually use when you're set on maces ...)

Ahem.
:blush:

Anyway. Maybe they know how a rogue should function in a warrior-controlled group, but that way not only conflicts with my play style, it also makes me weaker and less effective.

And perhaps it’s just my personal experience, but I’ve also seen warriors yelling at other classes for not playing “right” more than any other class. This may be because solo play is so much different from group play, but the bottom line is no one is paying $15 a month to be talked down to all night by a rude stranger.

I’ve spent time looking into the warrior class in-depth – enough to know I don’t want to play one, and to understand some of the tactics involved in keeping a group alive. But my experience has been that many warriors don’t have a working knowledge of how other-classed players want to play.

To emphasize – how other players *want* to play the game. They may know about shaman totems, frost nova mechanics, the nuances of a flash heal, etc., but they don’t stop to think about how the other players want to use their characters in a group. In my mind, there is no one way to play a drill sergeant *cough* warrior and have the party be effective. The initial discussion should not be one-sided. Once the warrior has explained how he would ideally like things to go, it’s time for him to listen to how each player wants to contribute to the group, and for a middle ground to be reached. The end result will be a more effective dynamic in which all players are 100% invested and doing their best and having fun, and not just taking orders. A large part of being a warrior is being grouped, and so a large part of being a warrior is understanding the psychology of the other 90% of the people in the game, and how to work together with them. The “right” way to play a warrior isn’t the only way, if most people don’t want to play with you.

Of course I could be completely wrong (I’ve posted as much and been told such), which would just underline the fact that I never want to play in a warrior-focused group ever again. To each his own. But I think these two “fluffy” subjects would be crucial components to any serious warrior guide you might design. Nuts and bolts are nothing if the machine you end up with is one no one wants to use.

[Olon97]

Good point about communication. Sorry to hear you've run into so many jerk warriors.

I usually don't lecture at all unless things go bad, and when they do I claim the blame (With a politically worded private message to anyone who did something obviously wrong - like "/msg Iliketoscare Sorry about letting that runner get away. Please be careful with your fear when there are potential adds around - makes my job a bit harder. ;)"). Many times the group does just fine without a lecture - the tactics may not be perfect, but the job gets done.

Less bossy warriors also have to adapt their tanking style to the way the group is operating. When I am with rogues similar to the build/style you're using (with insane dmg and not interested in toning down their specials a bit), I often ask them to be "main assist" - meaning the group should assist them and take their targets down quickly, while I ensure that I keep aggro on every other mob in the pull. Once I know I have the other mobs locked, I will taunt the rogue's target off of him (for a little breather, although if I have enough rage I can get lock back from a rogue doing their worst).

Many rogues however (presumably the more stealthy types), really enjoy when I overshoot the pull and turn and face the group so the rogue has lots of nicely exposed backs to go to town on, leaving me on the periphery so if there are adds, they aggro me first instead of the rogue.

There are spots that scream for AoE damage (Death Wish and the last moments of Armory in SM for instance), and unless the party wants to twiddle their thumbs while you build up a few AoE taunts, the tank won't keep everything on them. In those situations I just try to make sure everything at least starts on me (by pulling) and that they all have demoralizing shout (so they hurt the AoE'ers less) and Piercing Howl (so they may not reach the AoE chars at all) applied. If with those two steps, mobs are still doing too much damage to the casters, maybe AoE isn't the best idea... If it's a one time deal like the SM example, saving a challenging shout to buy the casters a few more seconds of aggro free ownage is a good idea.

[Concillian]

Hence, an essay on warrior communication should break down into three quick sections.  First, the initial “lecture” given to a new group to let them know what their expected roles are for maximized efficiency.  Second, quick-key codes that can be typed during battle to signify specific actions and to let the group know what the warrior is doing / planning / thinking of doing.  And third, how to keep things somewhat controlled when everything falls to pieces and group cohesion is threatened.  The alternative (which unfortunately is the only situation I’ve so far experienced) is the warrior dying and blaming everyone else for being “stupid” and letting their mind-reading skills go on the fritz, and for being "bad dogs" and not taking barked orders properly.

This is an excellent point. At the very least, the priest and warrior need to be on the same page, and the party needs to agree on what to do in a priest OOM situation and/or break for mana regen situation. However, people blaming others for deaths are themselves a problem.

... especially when that "better" way ends up giving me less treasure, less gold, and less experience per hour.  I’ve been lectured by warriors on how to play a “real” rogue so many times that I’ve given up on them, and gone on to strictly solo play. 

I think that stems from warriors being setup so much for instance play. Instance play is a completely different style of play. And instance play isn't really about max exp/hour or gold/hour, because it doesn't equal that... especially for a rogue who can get a significant amount of income from pickpocketing before the opener. You do instances for two reasons:
1) You like it / for the challenge / because it's there
2) Getting items otherwise unavailable

Tactics need to be totally different for ALL classes. I mean, I'd venture a guess that VERY few warriors run around solo-ing in defensive stance, and priests rarely heal when solo. You simply need different tactics in instances.

Couple that need of different tactics with Joe Public who doesn't know any better and you have a situation where the Warrior is used to teaching people how instance play needs to be different from solo play. I would guess he is trying to teach and you are trying to teach and nobody is listening. You both think your way is best and nobody wants to budge. Telling people to listen doesn't belong in a warrior guide so much as it belongs in a psychology book.

I'm doing just fine, thank you, and I can afford better equipment at the AH than what you're wearing, with money left over, without having to roll for things against you that you don't even need. 

That is not a class specific issue. I've seen a rogue roll against a priest on BOP staff, for instance. That issue is whether or not the person behind the screen is a dolt.

The fact that money and experience per hour are things you seem to hold dear indicates that you are probably not well suited for instance play. That's a good thing about WoW, there's plenty to do solo for those who don't want to group and plenty to do grouped for those who don't want to solo.

I’ve spent time looking into the warrior class in-depth – enough to know I don’t want to play one, and to understand some of the tactics involved in keeping a group alive.  But my experience has been that many warriors don’t have a working knowledge of how other-classed players want to play.

Again, this is also not class specific. A LOT of players don't know much about the abilities of the other classes. Ideally everybody would fully understand every class, but that's too much to expect from everyone. Any and every player going into an instance should at least make an effort to learn a little about tanks and healers. Even that is somewhat rare.

I think part of the source of your rant stems from the fact that rogues are relatively simple and attract more of the people who just want to smash a button and kill stuff and not think too much about what they are doing. I'm NOT saying you are one of those people, but rather that the experience others have with other rogues influences how they treat you. Class prejudice, I guess.

Paladins are similar in that respect. The percentage of those who know how to act in a group situation is smaller than the other classes, however it's a little less serious to the group as a whole, since paladins tend to steal aggro less. Also, when they do, they have armor that can help them be a lot less of a burden on the priest's mana pool than a rogue.

[Artega]

Paladins are similar in that respect.  The percentage of those who know how to act in a group situation is smaller than the other classes, however it's a little less serious to the group as a whole, since paladins tend to steal aggro less.  Also, when they do, they have armor that can help them be a lot less of a burden on the priest's mana pool than a rogue.
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Exactly why I'm not a huge fan of working with Rogues. Sure, Sap is great for CC, but a mage can sheep a target and I can still be the puller in that case and a mage can do significant AE damage by spamming Improved Arcane Explosion when things go down the pipes. Since I'm a smith, I have keys, which means that I don't need a lockpicker, and my keys are frequently of a higher (simulated) skill than the Rogue's Lockpicking ability.

[Kevin]

Exactly why I'm not a huge fan of working with Rogues.  Sure, Sap is great for CC, but a mage can sheep a target and I can still be the puller in that case and a mage can do significant AE damage by spamming Improved Arcane Explosion when things go down the pipes.  Since I'm a smith, I have keys, which means that I don't need a lockpicker, and my keys are frequently of a higher (simulated) skill than the Rogue's Lockpicking ability.
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Some of this is direct response to the quote, much of it is just general.

I haven't had a chance to play with a rogue yet, but I did get to play with a Druid who used cat form very effectively and I loved it. As a protection speced warrior who uses shield block liberally to prevent taking even more damage, the main healer can generally get away with just putting a HoT on me and forgetting about me. The Druid cat got to sit there and do it's damage unleashes and I would taunt it back after the finishing move, with points in defiance I didn't really need to worry about it while it was building up the combo points. Since the cat druid (like the rogue) is all about massive damage to one creature getting aggro back was easy since my taunt was refreshed by the time the combo points for the big hit were built up. I would imagine with a rogue it would have been even simpler because I would have taken less damage from the gouged critters for a few seconds, and the low damage of gouge would have meant that getting the aggro back from that would have been simple if I needed to after it woke up. I'm also starting to suspect that blocking generates aggro and if it does life is even simpler. I need to test more, but there have been a few times when a mage unleashed an AoE or there was a healer pealer and the critter that I hadn't hit or blocked was pulled, but the ones that I hadn't hit but I had blocked stayed right with me. But I'm not sure so I need to test.

Of course I just see aggro management as being a way to keep your healer's life simpler. If it is easier on the healer to have things beating on two targets then that is the better way for the group to go. I see the healer, not the tank as the field general. You don't generally put generals in your tanks, why should the game be different. Warriors should take direction from the healer. We we ran deadmines and I was primary tank, tal was secondary tank (both of us warriors), we had a VoidWalker from Bun-bun as tertiary, with Treesh as healer and Sabra as mage. I have the good fortune of sitting in the same room with Treesh and I was able to ask her if letting something beat on tal was better than pulling it back to me (if it was on the walker it just got left there till later in most cases). Sometimes it was better to put it on me; the cases where both of us needed active healing. Sometimes it wasn't; when only one of us or neither of us needed active healing. There were plenty of times I could have pulled stuff off tal but didn't becuase neither one of us required active healing, and had I pulled I probably would have. I'd rather have the priest hitting stuff with the wand after two renews on two different people than have the priest sitting there casting heals on one of us all the time. The better you can make passive healing (renews and rejuvs) the better things go. Stuns, blocks and killing a target quickly all serve that purpose. If you can safely split and kill two targets quickly so much better I feel.

I realize that I'm only L26 with my warrior and my heal spec druid is only 23 so that things are going to change, but that is the way I see it. Aggro management should be more about keeping the healer happy and there are plenty of ways to do that. There is nothing wrong with a warrior changing his style to fit a rogue or a druid or a hunter or anyone else, as long as the group goes better. I played with a druid in a group where we had a priest. The druid asked me, as the warrior, "What form do you want me to use". I said "I don't care", because I was confident that whatever he did, cat, bear, or caster, I could deal with it and since I knew the priest (Treesh) I figured she would let the druid know if things went bad. After a bit of trial we found it worked best to let him play like his solo style. He would cat and smack something hard, switch out, cast a renew, switch to bear and finish it. It didn't make sense for me to try and pull that mob back or leave him as a healer or something else. He could damage it, tank and it and do his own healing it made the priests job easier because I had one less thing hitting me and she still only had to heal one person. There was one time when we got a bad pull (5 equal or higher level mobs with 2 elites) and then a spawn of 4 more equal level mobs with a named one in our battleground. The druid was smart enough to just sit and heal me with the priest as I cleaved and shield blocked and taunted and demoralized away while the mage AoE'd. When a few of them were dead and mana was low the Druid went cat and dealt some big damage and soaked some damage while the priest regened mana. We walked out of it without any real scarces. Afterwards that druid said is was so much more fun playing with me because I didn't dictate that he was a secondary tank in bear form or a secondary healer, or a DPS cat. I let him use the flexiblity the druid has to do what needed to be done. I trusted the Priest to do let people know if we had to change tactics, and the mage handled aggro well after a few adjustments between too much and too little damage.

That is part of tanking as well. You can tank in many ways, and you will need to tank in the way that best fits the party composition. I really want to play with a rogue to get more experience because I think a rogue would work great with my prefered style of tanking (defensive stance with lots of ways to get aggro back from a single target) which is to mitigate damage done and kill as fast as you can. Gouge to slow damage to me and high single target DPS just seem to fit right in there becuase they don't look to pull aggro from any of the stuff I'm tanking. With them focusing on a single target I can easily pull back I don't see it being a problem with the healer. I have more problems with mage AoE's that pull several because my rage management talents are weak and switching stances isn't a good thing for me right now. Battle stance in the mid twenties is still more effective for pulling group aggro it seems but I can still do it in defensive, thanks a lot to early points in defiance. But I haven't had the pleasure or grouping with a rogue yet to test my theories. My theories with other classes have all seemed to pan out, so I see no reason to suspect this one won't.

But I really do want any guide that talks about tanking to include something that states just because you are the tank doesn't mean you shouldn't change your tactics. Tatics to me should revolve aound keeping the healer as happy as possible and killing as quickly as possible next. If that means the warrior should dish out as much damage as possible, then I do that. If it means the warrior sits and gets pounded great. If it means the warrior flops between both roles, great. If it means you let the hunter's pet take as much beating as possible go for it. The primary healer to me has the most locked in play style, keep the things that can keep you safe alive, do damage if you can. Everyone else works together to make that as easy as possible and there are many many ways to do that. I don't feel I have enough game experience to write a full tanking guide. I think I can give tips for someone who starts with protection spec from the start through the early twenties though.

[Artega]

@_@

Honestly, I think you're right in that the healer and not the tank is generally going to be calling the shots. The tank will definitely have a say-so in what to pull, when to pull, and how to pull, but as far as who does what, I think that's better left to the healers. The only exception is the tank making sure that everyone attacks the same target - there's nothing worse, as far as I'm concerned, as having everyone bashing on different targets (unless they're little non-elites that swarm, like the scorpids in Uldaman), because it makes maintaining adequate aggro a real pain in the ass.

On a side note, I'm against the fact that you can't escape mobs in instances - it kinda gives Challenging Shout a lesser feel. Since it's on a 10-minute timer, Challenging Shout (often paired with Last Stand and/or Shield Wall) is a last-ditch effort to give everyone a few seconds to get their #$%& together, or to buy people time to escape. Unfortunately, since mobs WILL chase you to the ends of the earth inside an instance, you can't do any heroic sacrifice things, which really freaking sucks. I'm sure there was a good reason for allowing mobs to follow you FOREVER, but I was really on hoping being a hero every now and then :)

[Concillian]

I think it's the level. Rogues are not a problem in Deadmines. You can virtually have a rogue as a tank in there, provided he is high enough level. Mob damage vs. rogue health/defense goes up a LOT more in the higher level instances.

the VC instance was toned down considerably, such that you can be pretty sloppy and still get through it. At least compared to later instances.

Rogues rarely gouge in groups because:
- someone else always hits the gouged mob, breaking the effect
- you are usually gang tackling one mob... see the first point

When playing the rogue, the only time I use gouge in a group is when I think I need to not do damage, but I still want combo points towards a finisher. It really sucks that you can't go from one target to another as a rogue, since you lose the combo points on your first target when you do that. It would make gouge more useful if you could gouge one target, then attack a second for 4 seconds, then go back to the first. As it is now, if I want gouge to keep the target inactive, I have to stand there with my thumb, well, you know.

So you won't get much protection out of gouge. Unless the rogue has an affinity for standing around doing nothing for 4 seconds or building up combo points just to lose them.

Also rogues do a lot more damage than a cat druid. I you're talking a lvl 20-24 rogue in Deadmines, a crit on eviscerate does about 200 damage all at once. This may be right after a crit on a backstab (if they have improved backstab, theres a REAL good chance of crit on backstab) that gave 150 or so PLUS the normal attacks he's doing (about 20 dps or so at that level). it's that kind of damage over only 2 or 3 seconds that can pull aggro you can't get back for a while.

[Occhidiangela]

I think it's the level.  Rogues are not a problem in Deadmines.  You can virtually have a rogue as a tank in there, provided he is high enough level.  Mob damage vs. rogue health/defense goes up a LOT more in the higher level instances.

the VC instance was toned down considerably, such that you can be pretty sloppy and still get through it.  At least compared to later instances.

Rogues rarely gouge in groups because:
- someone else always hits the gouged mob, breaking the effect
- you are usually gang tackling one mob... see the first point

When playing the rogue, the only time I use gouge in a group is when I think I need to not do damage, but I still want combo points towards a finisher.  It really sucks that you can't go from one target to another as a rogue, since you lose the combo points on your first target when you do that.  It would make gouge more useful if you could gouge one target, then attack a second for 4 seconds, then go back to the first.  As it is now, if I want gouge to keep the target inactive, I have to stand there with my thumb, well, you know.

So you won't get much protection out of gouge.  Unless the rogue has an affinity for standing around doing nothing for 4 seconds or building up combo points just to lose them.

Also rogues do a lot more damage than a cat druid.  I you're talking a lvl 20-24 rogue in Deadmines, a crit on eviscerate does about 200 damage all at once.  This may be right after a crit on a backstab (if they have improved backstab, theres a REAL good chance of crit on backstab) that gave 150 or so  PLUS the normal attacks he's doing (about 20 dps or so at that level).  it's that kind of damage over only 2 or 3 seconds  that can pull aggro you can't get back for a while.
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I gather that the rogue pulling aggro is, in general, a bad idea? As a rogue, I must say it strikes me as a horrible idea, intuitively. Again, sorry for not being a Beta Vet. Some of this is sorta intuitive, but the devil is in the details.

Occhi

[Concillian]

I gather that the rogue pulling aggro is, in general, a bad idea?  As a rogue, I must say it strikes me as a horrible idea, intuitively.  Again, sorry for not being a Beta Vet.  Some of this is sorta intuitive, but the devil is in the details.

Occhi
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Yes, it is a bad idea. That last sentence was horribly worded.

Should read:

It's that kind of damage over 2 to 3 seconds that can cause the rogue to pull aggro that the tank can't get back for a while.

[Kevin]

Also rogues do a lot more damage than a cat druid.  I you're talking a lvl 20-24 rogue in Deadmines, a crit on eviscerate does about 200 damage all at once.  This may be right after a crit on a backstab (if they have improved backstab, theres a REAL good chance of crit on backstab) that gave 150 or so  PLUS the normal attacks he's doing (about 20 dps or so at that level).  it's that kind of damage over only 2 or 3 seconds  that can pull aggro you can't get back for a while.
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Like I said I would like to see. I thought about, and I looked at the numbers and I do still think the warrior should be able to bounce aggro back to him most of the time. Taunt when not resisted will put the target on me, it's an 8 second cooldown (becuase I spend the talent points on it). So if the rogue does the backstab and then the evis and has aggro for 2 or 3 seconds then I taunt, I've got it it back. Sunder it (which seems to generate a lot of aggro, I'm starting to think you get the aggro for the extra damage done when something is sundered as well so the rogue is helping me) and smack it while the combo points are building back up. If the rogue pulls aggro when the combo points are being built up then, yeah we have a problem, but if it pulls aggro after a finishing move, who cares, unless you can get 5 ranks in less than 8 seconds consistently. A renew/rejuv on the rogue should get the health back without taxing the healer. I don't think having to put a HoT on a few chars is a big deal on a healer. But I will defer to experience. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying I want to try it. :) If it doesn't work out, I'll adjust my tactics to do something else. :) I have to believe it can be done. Most of what I've read from you has been spot on and I was hoping you wouldn't come back and point out how tough it was, but I still want to think it won't be as bad. I've had so much fun, in different ways, grouping with all the other classes because of the differences in how it makes things play. The rogue is the one character I haven't had a chance to group with yet.

With gouge, I was thinking gouge the add, then go back to the main, but that could be very hard on energy so maybe that doesn't make sense, bummer. And yeah, I can see the gouged thing getting hit. It isn't as obvious as a sheep and those get broken all the time. Oh well. There has be a good way for a warrior to go with a rogue that doesn't require to the rogue to shut down so many skills or idle anymore than a mage or another char has to in a party situation because of aggro management, and if the tank has to change styles some for it, oh well.

Edit: Listen fingers it's a rogue not a rouge! :)

[Tal]

Iit's that kind of damage over only 2 or 3 seconds  that can pull aggro you can't get back for a while.
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<-- Has successfully pulled aggro back from a DPS heavy rogue in Black Rock Depths with seal of fury and salvation. I also was able to gain aggro by flash healing said Rogue.

[Concillian]

<-- Has successfully pulled aggro back from a DPS heavy rogue in Black Rock Depths with seal of fury and salvation. I also was able to gain aggro by flash healing said Rogue.
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Was that in retail?

I have read that paladins were changed at one point so their healing generates significantly less aggro than other heals now. This was in an effort to minimize the situation that you describe where healing is used as a tool to keep aggro ON the paladin as tank. That is jus based on highly unreliable forum reading information, not personal experience at all.

I don't know nearly as much about the paladins abilities as the warrior, rogue, priest and mage.

I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just thinking that Gnollguy may be underestimating rogue DPS abilities.

On the other hand, I have seen sunder armor pull aggro INCREDIBLY well.

[Tal]

Was that in retail?

I have read that paladins were changed at one point so their healing generates significantly less aggro than other heals now.&nbsp; This was in an effort to minimize the situation that you describe where healing is used as a tool to keep aggro ON the paladin as tank.&nbsp; That is jus based on highly unreliable forum reading information, not personal experience at all.

I don't know nearly as much about the paladins abilities as the warrior, rogue, priest and mage.

I'm not saying it can't be done.&nbsp; I'm just thinking that Gnollguy may be underestimating rogue DPS abilities.&nbsp;

On the other hand, I have seen sunder armor pull aggro INCREDIBLY well.
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Alas it was days before the shut down of Beta.