Question about Mages

[Cyath]

Hi, I'm thinking of making a Mage on Stormrage as my first serious PvE character, and I have a few questions to ask. I've read up some of the Mage guides hosted here and on the Amazon Basin (as well as the ones linked from them), so I have a general idea of what a Mage is and is not, but since my only actual experience with a Mage is a Level 8 in Beta, I decided to post here. ^_^

Oh yeah and before I begin, I'd like to mention that I'm only going to use these strategies for PvE (both group and solo, with a probable emphasis on solo) - no PvP at all. I have nothing against PvP, but seeing as this character is going to be on a PvE server I don't really see the point of talking about it (in this post at least)

1. As I understand from the Mage guide here (which I happen to agree with) you are basically going for all-out damage ASAP, not really caring about mana efficiency, since once you waste an enemy you just chug some water down and rinse and repeat. So why wouldn't a good strategy for a Mage just be to fire off the most powerful spells available...let's say, open with Pyroblast, Fireball X 2, Frost Nova once as the enemy nears, and then end with Fireballs? If fully specced out, the damage should take down the enemy before you run out of mana right? Then you can add some other utlility spells for possible grouping.

2. I'm not too good with numbers, so I can't do all the fancy calculations to support my hypotheses, but it seems to me that since Ice slows down the enemy, that more or less translated to more damage in the long run, since you get to cast more spells as the enemy runs towards you. Coupled with the synergy of Ice Shards/Shatter and the other talents in the ice tree, wouldn't Ice also be a viable damage alternative? If the Frostbolt slows, giving more time for other Ice spells to freeze/slow, adding more damage because of criticals...that would add up to pretty hefty damage right?

Basically I'm asking these two questions because I can't really see the reason for the heavy investment into Improved Arcane Missiles - when fully boosted, it's a good DPS spell which cannot be interrupted, basically making it the mage's version of melee (in a way) and a very good version at that...but why should a mage need to melee, even from a distance?

Anyway, just tossing out this stuff for debate, hoping I can get some answers before building my mage. Thanks for reading!

[Skandranon]

1.  As I understand from the Mage guide here (which I happen to agree with) you are basically going for all-out damage ASAP, not really caring about mana efficiency, since once you waste an enemy you just chug some water down and rinse and repeat.  So why wouldn't a good strategy for a Mage just be to fire off the most powerful spells available...let's say, open with Pyroblast, Fireball X 2, Frost Nova once as the enemy nears, and then end with Fireballs? If fully specced out, the damage should take down the enemy before you run out of mana right? Then you can add some other utlility spells for possible grouping.

You're quite right - a solo mage is all about firing the biggest damage spells that you have as soon as possible. Pyroblast and Fireball is about as good an opening sequence as you can hope for.

2. I'm not too good with numbers, so I can't do all the fancy calculations to support my hypotheses, but it seems to me that since Ice slows down the enemy, that more or less translated to more damage in the long run, since you get to cast more spells as the enemy runs towards you. Coupled with the synergy of Ice Shards/Shatter and the other talents in the ice tree, wouldn't Ice also be a viable damage alternative? If the Frostbolt slows, giving more time for other Ice spells to freeze/slow, adding more damage because of criticals...that would add up to pretty hefty damage right?

Yes. The slowing effect more or less compensates for Fireball's greater damage, making the output basically equal for each tree once all the talent points are factored in. Fire still comes out on top, but by a small margin - Ignite tends to go off more often than Frostbite/Shatter/Ice Shards, just because the Frost version only freezes 15% of the time at max points.

The reason that Fire's damage is still superior overall relates mostly to group play: in groups, your target should never be running towards you or really be anywhere other than stuck to the group's tank. The slow really isn't of any consequence there. Similarly, Ignite and Impact still work in group play, whereas even when Frostbite goes off, your groupmates are likely to break the ice before you can hit the target again to trigger Shatter. The other reasons focus mainly around casters and mobs with bows or thrown spears. Neither of these need to get closer than around thirty yards, again making the slow mostly useless.

Basically I'm asking these two questions because I can't really see the reason for the heavy investment into Improved Arcane Missiles - when fully boosted, it's a good DPS spell which cannot be interrupted, basically making it the mage's version of melee (in a way) and a very good version at that...but why should a mage need to melee, even from a distance?
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The incorrect assumption you're making is that Pyroblast, Fireball, Frost Nova, Fireball or Frostbolt x4, Frost Nova, Frostbolt is somehow sufficient damage to kill a mob before it reaches you. You asked if it was part of a strategy to kill a mob before you run out of mana, which it is, but it isn't a way to kill them before they get close. Level 12 or so is the last level where you can reliably think about killing a mob before it touches you; after that, you're looking at maybe 50% to 60% of a mob's life in the opening barrage, up to 70% or so if you get a critical. The rest of the battle is conducted at melee range, and Fireblast-Cone won't be enough to end it. At that point, uninterruptible missiles is far preferable to "Fire-*whack* Fireb-*thunk* Fireba-*twack* Fireball!"

Part of the reason mages complain so much is because of the feeling that occasionally, we should be able to kill something before it reaches us. Unfortunately, we don't have the power to do that even under optimal conditions.

Suboptimal conditions are another reason to max IAM. In indoor areas, you'll often find yourself limited to an engagement range of 15-20 yards maximum. If one of your spells gets resisted, again, you'll need IAM. Pull two things and you'll start your second battle at melee range - again, IAM. You'll recall that I advised IAM to cover previous vulnerabilities, and that's an important factor to consider.

[Malakar]

IAM also prevents fast attacking mobs like cats from slowing down your casting speed.

[Cyath]

Hey, thanks for the comprehensive reply, I think I got some things clarified now. ^_^ I'll just cut and paste the stuff that's relevant to this post so I don't clog it up....

QUOTE

"The reason that Fire's damage is still superior overall relates mostly to group play: in groups, your target should never be running towards you or really be anywhere other than stuck to the group's tank. The slow really isn't of any consequence there. Similarly, Ignite and Impact still work in group play, whereas even when Frostbite goes off, your groupmates are likely to break the ice before you can hit the target again to trigger Shatter. The other reasons focus mainly around casters and mobs with bows or thrown spears. Neither of these need to get closer than around thirty yards, again making the slow mostly useless."

Hmm, so as I see it fire shines in group play and because of casters, but Ice has more defensive safeguards (like Ice Block) and control elements. Am I right?

QUOTE

"The incorrect assumption you're making is that Pyroblast, Fireball, Frost Nova, Fireball or Frostbolt x4, Frost Nova, Frostbolt is somehow sufficient damage to kill a mob before it reaches you. You asked if it was part of a strategy to kill a mob before you run out of mana, which it is, but it isn't a way to kill them before they get close. Level 12 or so is the last level where you can reliably think about killing a mob before it touches you; after that, you're looking at maybe 50% to 60% of a mob's life in the opening barrage, up to 70% or so if you get a critical. The rest of the battle is conducted at melee range, and Fireblast-Cone won't be enough to end it. At that point, uninterruptible missiles is far preferable to "Fire-*whack* Fireb-*thunk* Fireba-*twack* Fireball!"

Hmm, but assuming a solo target, shouldn't you be able to get off a Frost Nova to freeze them so you can run away and repeat the process?

However, taking another tack and assuming we use Missiles, in that case, how is Fireball superior to missiles? Since Missiles is an uninterruptible channeling spell, once you fire a Frostbolt and the enemy is moving towards you slowly, shouldn't you get in tons of Missile hits?

QUOTE

"Suboptimal conditions are another reason to max IAM. In indoor areas, you'll often find yourself limited to an engagement range of 15-20 yards maximum. If one of your spells gets resisted, again, you'll need IAM. Pull two things and you'll start your second battle at melee range - again, IAM. You'll recall that I advised IAM to cover previous vulnerabilities, and that's an important factor to consider."

Yeah, I realize I was assuming perfect combat conditions, which rarely occur. I'll have to do more research I guess. ^_^

On a completely unrelated note, how do you adjust the board setting so you can read all replies to a message instead of having to click on each?

[Skandranon]

Hmm, so as I see it fire shines in group play and because of casters, but Ice has more defensive safeguards (like Ice Block) and control elements. Am I right?

Essentially. Ice Barrier is a defensive superstar; you can prebuff, it doesn't eat your mana in a fight, etc. Ice Block, however, is a group play spell. In solo, Block simply puts the whole combat on pause for ten seconds while you do absolutely nothing - buying time only works if there's someone to take advantage of that time. Control elements, well...if you count freezing and slowing, yes.

Hmm, but assuming a solo target, shouldn't you be able to get off a Frost Nova to freeze them so you can run away and repeat the process?

Frost Nova's 25-second cooldown means you'll get one per battle. Keep in mind that it freezes for eight seconds, maximum, and usually a lot less than that. If you Frost Nova, turn, run a few yards, turn again, that's already four seconds and a fifty percent chance that the creature is now free - you burned your Nova for nothing. Then, even if it IS free, you've got a 2.5-3.0 second cast coming up, which ramps the odds up to 80%+ that it comes free and lands a melee hit on you before your cast is done.

Basically - Frost Nova is not a reset button. You can't start a fight all over again with it, and dreams of getting 36-41 yards away are just that - dreams. Frost Nova buys you one spellcast - no repeat process.

The closest you can get is by Blinking immediately after you Nova, turning, and casting. Even so, that's twenty yards only and unlikely to score you more than one uninterrupted cast. And the conditions where Blinking forward doesn't toss you into more mobs are not common.

However, taking another tack and assuming we use Missiles, in that case, how is Fireball superior to missiles? Since Missiles is an uninterruptible channeling spell, once you fire a Frostbolt and the enemy is moving towards you slowly, shouldn't you get in tons of Missile hits?

After the introduction of talents, you will probably never use all of Frostbolt, Fireball and Arcane Missiles in the same combat. Therefore, I'm not sure what you're asking - if you're Frost specialized, Fireball isn't better than Missiles, so Missile away. If you're Fire specialized, you won't be opening with a Frostbolt or casting Frostbolt at all, really, except against fire immunes. Clarify the question?

On a completely unrelated note, how do you adjust the board setting so you can read all replies to a message instead of having to click on each?
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Click on Standard in the top right corner.

[Cyath]

QUOTE

Basically - Frost Nova is not a reset button. You can't start a fight all over again with it, and dreams of getting 36-41 yards away are just that - dreams. Frost Nova buys you one spellcast - no repeat process.

The closest you can get is by Blinking immediately after you Nova, turning, and casting. Even so, that's twenty yards only and unlikely to score you more than one uninterrupted cast. And the conditions where Blinking forward doesn't toss you into more mobs are not common.

Hmm, ok so Frost Nova doesn't really help that much, it's more like a panic button than anything else?

QUOTE


After the introduction of talents, you will probably never use all of Frostbolt, Fireball and Arcane Missiles in the same combat. Therefore, I'm not sure what you're asking - if you're Frost specialized, Fireball isn't better than Missiles, so Missile away. If you're Fire specialized, you won't be opening with a Frostbolt or casting Frostbolt at all, really, except against fire immunes. Clarify the question?

Yeah, I wasn't quite clear with what I was saying - my question was that since you were going to put so many points into Missiles anyway, does Fireball really outdamage Missiles enough to justify the specialization? For the Frost route, wouldn't it make more sense just to fire one Frostbolt to freeze, then Missile the rest of the way?

[Skandranon]

Hmm, ok so Frost Nova doesn't really help that much, it's more like a panic button than anything else?

Yes and no. It works well as a panic button, but for at least the first 20 levels you'll want it as a key part of your tactical arsenal. Nova as they come close, then take a few steps back and unload a spell.

Yeah, I wasn't quite clear with what I was saying - my question was that since you were going to put so many points into Missiles anyway, does Fireball really outdamage Missiles enough to justify the specialization?

Firstly, five points is not "so many" or even "many" at all. Five points is nothing, and these five are one of the best deals there are. Besides, all talent builds will be going at least 15 points into Arcane - given that you have to put five points into first-tier Arcane talents anyway, this isn't at all an out-of-the-way expenditure.

Secondly, define "enough". With five points in Improved Fireball, Fireball ends up with a 10-20% edge depending on what level you are. With Impact offering a chance to stun, and Flame Throwing extending its range, Fireball becomes something you want to be casting a lot before they reach you. Unfortunately that usually means just two, but you can get a third with Frost Nova.

Thirdly, even if it isn't "enough" - what else will you use the points on? Mage talents are pretty weak. We take what we can get.

For the Frost route, wouldn't it make more sense just to fire one Frostbolt to freeze, then Missile the rest of the way?

With Improved Frostbolt, Frostbolt is good enough to use the whole way in - the damage is either comparable or very slightly superior. All other things being equal, you'd rather score a critical with Frostbolt and Ice Shards than with Arcane Missiles (which has no such enhancing talent). The heavy frost build shoots Frostbolts all the way because each has a chance to freeze (with Frostbite) and therefore crit (via Shatter).

[ehertlein]

Do the ice effects slow the attack speed of monsters at all or only the movement speed?

[Skandranon]

Do the ice effects slow the attack speed of monsters at all or only the movement speed?
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Depends which ice effect you're talking about. Frost Armor/Ice Armor's effect slows attack speed by 20%. All other chill effects slow movement speed only.