Roleplaying vs greifing?

[Taeme]

The only reason I quote those examples is because I don't see them to be outside the realm of PvP.  If I'm able to mind control an attacker off a cliff, you can bet I'll do it.  Somehow manage a way for the mobs to lend a hand?  Sure!

It causes unnecessary hassle and, from what I'm told (never checked) actual item damage. It's a bit rude.

[Guest]

Then maybe you are on the wrong server.

I play PvP only. I doesnt particularlly bother me when the Horde does any bad thing to me. I might get riled up for the next 2 or 3 minutes, but thats why I am on a PvP server. I like the little edge that it has.

I expect people do everything against me they can with in the rules, and I expect them to bear it if I return the favor.

Thats what the rules aloow and thats what I want.

[Guest]

"It's a bit rude."


Once again. I just dont buy the concept of rude, when your dealing with lethal enemies.

Hurting people on my own side thats "greif". They have a expectaion that I am nott working against them. If the Horde thinks I feel anything positive towards them they deserve what they get for being naive.

[malphigian]

Then maybe you are on the wrong server.

I play PvP only. I doesnt particularlly bother me when the Horde does any bad thing to me. I might get riled up for the next 2 or 3 minutes, but thats why I am on a PvP server. I like the little edge that it has.

I expect people do everything against me they can with in the rules, and I expect them to bear it if I return the favor.

Thats what the rules aloow and thats what I want.
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Ah, the classic "get to a carebear server" response.

There are things that are certainly possible that are just the hallmark of being an ass: going out of your way to kill people 20 levels under you in a lowbie zone, graveyard camping, camping on the invisible spot on the Gadgetzen AH roof, etc.

I don't whine about these (since I do expect them), but they are most certainly griefing and aren't the sorts of things I'd expect someone with a shred of decency or skill to be doing. They also are the mark of someone who doesn't particularily like a challenge in their PvP (my anti-ganker experience also teaches me they tend to be people who are also profoundly bad at PvP).

This isn't about some kind of horde/alliance role playing, it's about certain specific actions in the game that tell you something about the player at the keyboard, not the character.

Aside from the relatively small list of obvious griefs, everything else is grey area in my book.

[Guest]

A rule that can not be inforced - is a suggestion.


Im wary of making comparisions between a game and real war because what happens in a war actually matters.
I suppose its ok to apply aspects of real war to a game, but it makes me uncormfortable to think of people developing a perspective on war from a game and these sort of conversations often lead to that.


But a couple of points. The "written rules of war" are just suggestion in reality. We(the US) dont actually live by them.

In most cases we actually use a higher standard then the Geneva Convention requires for 2 reasons - national values and world opinion.

Also in some cases we utterly disregard the rules(some of the rules are abitrary to the point of absurdety). The most popularly noted instance of this is using 50. HMG rounds in an antipersonal role. Theres nothing more cruel about being wounded with a 50. than with grenade or smaller rifle, but some dude 80 or so years ago decided it was "bad" - most all nations ignore thiss rule beacuse its pointless.

[Guest]

Just because its been said before - that doesnt make it wrong. I think its more wrong judge others on your own personal rules than it is wrong to dimess people who dont like the rules.


I noticed on your list "bad" things you mentioned exploits along with things you simply dont like.

Shooting from an invisable spot is an exploit.

Killing a bunch of lowbies is with in the rules though.




As for camping the graveyard I suspect that will be changed at some point. Its the only way with in the game that you can utterly trap a player for as long you you want. The only option for the guy who ressed in a graveyard here is to log off.

[Swiss Mercenary]

People who gank lowbies... Don't people come to the PvP server for a challenge?

[malphigian]

Just because its been said before - that doesnt make it wrong. I think its more wrong judge others on your own personal rules than it is wrong to dimess people who dont like the rules.
I noticed on your list "bad" things you mentioned exploits along with things you simply dont like.

Shooting from an invisable spot is an exploit.

Killing a bunch of lowbies is with in the rules though.
As for camping the graveyard I suspect that will be changed at some point.  Its the only way with in the game that you can utterly trap a player for as long you you want. The only option for the guy who ressed in a graveyard here is to log off.
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GM's have repeatedly said they don't currently consider the Gadgetzen AH roof an exploit (go figure), and people have taken it as carte blanche to grief from there for hours.

I see very little difference between that and going out of your way to camp a lowbie zone. It's all risk-free, skill-free PvP. Note I did not say just killing lowbies who happen to be in your way. I usually let lowbies who I come across go, but I don't begrudge others who have a Kill on Sight policy. I'm talking about the people who fly to lowbies zones at 60 just to grief people 20 levels under them.

I'm not talking about rules at all, I'm talking only about my personal opinion of these people -- It's perfectly justified for me to say exactly what I said: these things take no skill whatsoever and represent people going out of their way simply to grief other players with no risk to themselves. It's not "against the rules" but it makes the person doing it a talentless jackass :P.

[--Pete]

Hi,

People who gank lowbies... Don't people come to the PvP server for a challenge?
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Some do indeed go PvP for challenge. Others are attracted to the PvP servers because they are jackasses and have more opportunity to act as such there.

Much like the old French saying, "If you have to think of your honor, you've already lost it", if someone asks if they are griefing, they probably are.

Those dragging out that old tired argument "if the code allows you do it, then it is within the rules and thus OK" are just as idiotic as they've always been. Besides skill, to be a great player takes class. Gankers have no class.

OTOH, WoW is not D1 or D2. In those games, there was no rational for 'being on the other side'. Aside from dueling, PvP in those games was piontless and stupid. WoW has 'war' as an underlying premise. Since it is built into the game, PvP is much better balanced and makes much more sense. And Blizzard did give us the PvE/PvP option (I just don't see how a non-PvP RP server could work).

Finally, in analogy to a well worn Internet dictum, I propose the 'Lurker Law': "The first person to introduce the word 'carebear' into a PvP discussion loses. He's just demonstrated his inability to think beyond the flatworm level."

--Pete

[Taeme]

GT I happily slaughter alliance nooblars like nobody's business with my guildmates, howveer I still see - in a situations where I don't need to - tormenting a lowbie with MC or fear as flat out griefing. Don't give me this lethal enemy crap, that NE hunter 20 levels lower than me isn't lethal. He's a bug.

Much like the old French saying, "If you have to think of your honor, you've already lost it", if someone asks if they are griefing, they probably are.
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Off topic, I had a dream a couple weeks back wherein an agent is discussing some famous general and he quoted "When knights clash, honour is stuffed into the bill of the freshest corpse."

I wonder where my subconscious came up with that.

[Professor Frink]

As for camping the graveyard I suspect that will be changed at some point.  Its the only way with in the game that you can utterly trap a player for as long you you want. The only option for the guy who ressed in a graveyard here is to log off.
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Can't you be rezzed by the spirit healer at any graveyard, not just the one your spirit is sent to?

-- frink

[Brother Laz]

IIRC, you will then be teleported back to the closest graveyard. Imagine people sneaking across the world in ghost form and ressing in a whole different city?

[Occhidiangela]

Is there much of anything you can do in WoW that would be a violation of the RL law of war?  The only thing I can remember off the top of my head would be surrendering, but is that even possible in WoW?  It's not like you can be captured or even put your weapon down and return to civilian life, and soldiers aren't required to let the enemy get away just because they have the advantage. 

Unlike D2 where everyone was on the same side and non-duel PvP was automatically a form of betrayal, this really is war and the game mechanics seem to be trying to encourage that sort of aggression (you can't communicate with the other side; mobs will happily kill lowbies and camp their corpse)
I think the RL laws of war only obligate you to follow the rules if the other side keeps their end of the deal.  Aren't you allowed to shoot surrendering troops if the other side doesn't honor the rules of surrender? (for example, WWII Japan)

-- frink
P.S.  I'm not at all an expert on this and probably wrong
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Professor: I would need to look up a bit of this, but the general feeling on reprisals is that they are not consistent with the Law of Armed Conflict. (Firebombing of Dresden is a favorite example of that issue.)

The disciplined use of force inferred by that premise that there is SOME law in war other than killing as many of the enemy as it takes to make them quit means that, for example, just becaue the Japanese abused our prisoners taken at Wake does not mean that, in a quid pro quo, our folks would do the same.

Likewise shooting "surrendering" enemy. If the enemy has developed a habit pattern of using the White Flag as a subterfuge for ambush, commanders may be given high level guidance to ingore white flags based on a pattern of behaviour. that is consistent with a general legal principle regarding "action versus stated intention." See also rules on partisans, and how they are treated differently from regular troops.

Realize the answer is vague.

Occhi