Roleplaying vs greifing?

[Guest]

This isnt about LL guild rules(its not my guild so I dont care what rules you use). But this is about perspective on MMORP gaming and was inspired by the LL guild rules.

Mongo made this quote - "There can be legitimate role-playing reasons for playing this way[{KOS], but because KoS activity is just a hair's breadth away from griefing and harassment, one should not do this while under the banner of the Lurker Lounge."

2 questions.


1 Why does a roleplaying validate an activity otherwise considered wrong?

2 Is it even possible to grief someone on a PvP server?(Of course using exploits against someone is greifing, but we all agree exploits are wrong.)

[Alrin]

This isnt about LL guild rules(its not my guild so I dont care what rules you use). But this is about perspective on MMORP gaming and was inspired by the LL guild rules.

Mongo made this quote - "There can be legitimate role-playing reasons for playing this way[{KOS], but because KoS activity is just a hair's breadth away from griefing and harassment, one should not do this while under the banner of the Lurker Lounge."

2 questions.
1 Why does a roleplaying validate an activity otherwise considered wrong?

2 Is it even possible to grief someone on a PvP server?(Of course using exploits against someone is greifing, but we all agree exploits are wrong.)
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1) Your PC may have (by your design granted) a certain personality that which, upon certain met conditions turns into a murdering bastard. Turning away from what is normally considered "fair play". You don't abuse and slaughter every grey player you encounter because they have no chance. Fair play.
Your RP-ing can change that condition. It's the age-old Chaotic Evil(Dumb) problem. Player A creates a PC in a oh.. say a D&D game. Player chooses Chaotic Evil for alignment. Description of CE shows you are highly psychotic and can turn into a serial killer at any moment, etc etc. Thus, Player A embraces this and effectively turns into a jackass on two legs. Contradicting everything considered "common sense" and "fair play".
Again, you force a personality not necessarily your own onto your character(s). Some argue the flight from reality is healthy, some think it is downright dangerous to yourself. Argument ensues.

2) Griefing on pvp server? I guess it would be to use all means necessary to hunt players who have no chance against you. Grey conned people, that is. The grief-pvpers dont exactly go up against that red conned paladin that they spotted earlier, but will eagerly slash into the floppy skin of that grey weak almost-dead mage resting in the next clearing. But that's also point of perspective.
Fair pvping is fine (according to me), but when you go out and maliciously really only tries to harass and kill and waste other peoples time I would consider that griefing. Killing them, them camp their corpse and killing again would be scorned upon = griefing.

Atleast, that's my humble opinion.

-Al

edit: formatting

[MongoJerry]

I would put it like this: A role-playing KoS'er coming across a member of the other faction will attempt to harm the other *character*.

A griefer is someone who actively attempts to harm or cause significant distress to the other *player* -- i.e. the person sitting in front of their computer screen miles away.

And, yes, there are many available avenues for griefing on a PvP server. Luckily, there are many available ways to stop or avoid many griefing techniques, but that does not change the fact that it is possible to grief.

[Occhidiangela]

This isnt about LL guild rules(its not my guild so I dont care what rules you use). But this is about perspective on MMORP gaming and was inspired by the LL guild rules.

Mongo made this quote - "There can be legitimate role-playing reasons for playing this way[{KOS], but because KoS activity is just a hair's breadth away from griefing and harassment, one should not do this while under the banner of the Lurker Lounge."

2 questions.
1 Why does a roleplaying validate an activity otherwise considered wrong?

2 Is it even possible to grief someone on a PvP server?(Of course using exploits against someone is greifing, but we all agree exploits are wrong.)
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I think it is possible to grief someone on a PvP server, but I think most of those include corpse camping and exploits. Beyond that, it is a free for all between two factions.

RL issue: KoS was the general approach to a guy called Zarqawi, yet the instructions (when I was over there) were "capture or kill." KoS is a subset of a larger approach to your enemy.

Game issue: Since there is no "capture" in this online RP, which is different from pen and paper RP's where you can indeed bind and capture a stunned or charmed opponent, hostile player factions are left with three choices regarding their opponents:

Ignor/Avoid
Attack with intent to kill or scare off
Grief/Annoy/Harass

There is little accountability to higher authority outside of any guild, and a few GM guidelines, so any Guild establishes its own RoE if any. This RoE applies to its own members. Or, it does not, and the KoS policy statement, a crude yet simple RoE, remains as the guidance for "meeting engagements:" running across a patrol from the other side.

KoS can be used as an excuse for slopiness in decision making, for lack of common sense, for lack of energy to establish guild RoE, for breeding hate and discontent for its own sake, and so on.

Mongo Jerry's guidelines are established in an effort to shape the LL guild's rep. Rep is important in an RPG. The idea is that LL guild members exercise a certain amount of self discipline for the good of the LL guild rep.

This is similar to the RL issue of establishing a consistent "perception" in the media via policies, discipline, and how one approaches one's enemy. Lindy England and her colleagues would not be a good example of how one extablishes a "good rep" as a "guild."

Role Playing as a Horde character, I would probably tend to be more cruel if this were a robust RP experience: More likely to kill, or torment and then kill, than capture unless a goodly ransom was likely. Tribal behaviour. (My troll is tribal, that is for sure.)

In a different fantasy example, I'd suggest that the general RoE from Galadriel regarding Orcs "crossing the line" into Lothlorien, would be "kill on sight." Likewise Elrond in Rivendell.

Occhi

[Treesh]

Role Playing as a Horde character, I would probably tend to be more cruel if this were a robust RP experience:  More likely to kill, or torment and then kill, than capture unless a goodly ransom was likely.  Tribal behaviour.  (My troll is tribal, that is for sure.)
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*sniffs back a tear* My poor Tauren. Always lumped in with the bad horde. She's not bad! She even planted some trees last night to help fix the destruction that happened in Charred Vale. Poor Mogo.

;)

[Roane]

1 Why does a roleplaying validate an activity otherwise considered wrong?

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I've played on RP servers or with RPers for as long as I've been doing online gaming (this group is an exception for me, actually). Any of them would tell you that RP does not validate an activity that would otherwise be considered wrong. We call people who try to pull that, "but I'm evil," trick some really nasty names, including immature. In fact, we've always considered it a great challenge to find a way to play evil in a way that isn't disruptive to other people's playing or RPing experience.

[Alrin]

We call people who try to pull that, "but I'm evil," trick some really nasty names, including immature.  In fact, we've always considered it a great challenge to find a way to play evil in a way that isn't disruptive to other people's playing or RPing experience.

Hence the Chaotic Dumb alignment wording :)

Lawful Evil and Neutral Evil was always enjoyable to play.
You do what is morally questionable but still remain within the boundaries of the "law".
Perhaps bend it a long way, but still keep within the guidelines.

[Guest]

I see it different than many of you.

From my perspective on a PvP server anything that isnt an exploit and is done against an enemy is fine.
If you enjoy opperating by under special rules thats cool.
But thats just how you like to play annd you shouldnt expect the same from others except to the degree that your in game actions can force others to adhere to your standards.


As for "roleplaying" meaning we should treat some people different thats silly. In the game treat people as they deserve for their actions in game.
If they exploit then treat them different matter though, because exploits are essentially using an out of game action to effect the game.

[Swiss Mercenary]

I see it different than many of you.

From my perspective on a PvP server anything that isnt an exploit and is done against an enemy is fine.
If you enjoy opperating by under special rules thats cool.
But thats just how you like to play annd you shouldnt expect the same from others except to the degree that your in game actions can force others to adhere to your standards.

But it is more then reasonable to expect it of people wearing the Lurker banner.

[Guest]

I wasnt talking about the guild. I think its fine that they use whatever rules they like. I was talking about the value judgements I see espoused on this forum.

[MongoJerry]

But thats just how you like to play annd you shouldnt expect the same from others except to the degree that your in game actions can force others to adhere to your standards.

I don't expect high standards from others, and therefore am surprised when I see others adhering to high standards. But that doesn't change the fact that when someone does something involving low standards that I will consider that person to be a lecherous jerk. And the word "jerk" has been substituted for words far more PG-13ish.

That one can be a "jerk" doesn't mean that one has to act like a "jerk."

[Taeme]

2 Is it even possible to grief someone on a PvP server?(Of course using exploits against someone is greifing, but we all agree exploits are wrong.)
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Man.

Seriously, are you kidding? In a normal PVP situation two players of opposing sides meet up and fight it out. One goes down, one slaps a bandage on and goes off on his merry way.

When griefing you do all sorts of stuff. Ashenvale death squads. Mind control off a cliff. Sheep drowning. Fearing them into mobs. Corpse camping. Beating a lower level player to a sliver of life, then leaving. Then coming back and doing it again. And again.

Griefing is causes suffering. It's doing things to inflict frustration on the other player.

[Zarathustra]

Man.

Seriously, are you kidding? In a normal PVP situation two players of opposing sides meet up and fight it out. One goes down, one slaps a bandage on and goes off on his merry way...

...Mind control off a cliff...

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The only reason I quote those examples is because I don't see them to be outside the realm of PvP. If I'm able to mind control an attacker off a cliff, you can bet I'll do it. Somehow manage a way for the mobs to lend a hand? Sure!

The one that I do take issue with is sheep drowning. I'd like to see a change made where a sheep in the water would immediately swim for the surface. Until then, I say it's pretty cheap.

[Artega]

Hence the Chaotic Dumb alignment wording :)

Lawful Evil and Neutral Evil was always enjoyable to play.
You do what is morally questionable but still remain within the boundaries of the "law".
Perhaps bend it a long way, but still keep within the guidelines.
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Lawful Evil was always the most fun to play; cold, manipulative, and always looking out for Number One.

[Artega]

Cheap? Yes. Funny? Definitely.

Mind Control is quite possibly the funniest PvP spell in the game. During a skirmish outside of Refuge Pointe, back when my group and I were in our early forties, our priest MC'd some poor dorf warrior named Baldur, and had him tank the Refuge Pointe guards for us. He died in the process.

We've also used MC to have him hop into lakes of lava, tank Fozruk and his buddies, and hop off of various cliffsides. Strangely, though, he's usually friendly when he sees us; whether that's because he's afraid of getting MC'd into town guards again, or he got amusement out of the various situations, we don't know.

As for me, red=dead for anything that cons green or higher in Contested territory. Red=dead no matter what they con if they're in Horde territory - if they're there, they aren't there to do any good, and I'll butcher and corpse-camp them until they leave.

[Bob the Beholder]

As for me, red=dead for anything that cons green or higher in Contested territory.  Red=dead no matter what they con if they're in Horde territory - if they're there, they aren't there to do any good, and I'll butcher and corpse-camp them until they leave.
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But...

If you're corpse-camping them, how do they leave?

[Occhidiangela]

I see it different than many of you.

From my perspective on a PvP server anything that isnt an exploit and is done against an enemy is fine.

If you enjoy opperating by under special rules thats cool.

But thats just how you like to play annd you shouldnt expect the same from others except to the degree that your in game actions can force others to adhere to your standards.

As for "roleplaying" meaning we should treat some people different thats silly. In the game treat people as they deserve for their actions in game.   If they exploit then treat them different matter though, because exploits are essentially using an out of game action to effect the game.
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Pretty much concur.

Even in RL, certain sets of opponents a "code of honour" even when fighting each other. Formally, these are embodied in such things as "The Law of Armed Combat" and some of the gallantry exhibited in the early air war of World War One.

The trouble is, one can't count on one's enemy to try to do anything but win. Therefore, as you suggest, any "code" one adopts is undertaken for one's own reasons, and not out of any expectations that the foe is obligated to mimic you. I find that a lot of people, RL and Gameside as well, completely don't "get" that.

Occhi

[malphigian]

To my mind the only real "griefing" on the PvP server are the following situations:
-Going out of your way to gank lowbies (that is, flying to ashenvale as a level 60 and killing 20s)
-Corpse camping (this is *only* really possible with a group, and even then I've rarely been effectively corpse camped).
-Graveyard camping (really, really low when it happens).

I generally follow my own little extra code of honor, including such things as never starting something with anyone less than 5 levels or more under me and never attacking someone who is currently on a mob. I keep my PvP fights to the open areas.

I don't corpse camp either unless they deserve it (they fit one of the 3 griefer categories mentioned above). Since I spend a lot of time doing anti-ganker defense in lowbie areas, I have done a bit of it. But they richly deserve what they get.

The interesting thing is, at least on Tichondrius, is that since level 45 or so 99% of everyone seems to be following the same rules. I haven't gotten hit while on a mob in forever, even when I've got a sliver of health left and there are alliance all over.

This isn't, of course, so much about honor as it is about the blowback. You kill someone on a mob, and you can bet you're not going to be questing there either, they are going to come back at you. Still, it's nice to see.

As a sorta pedantic aside, Horde are really not the evil bad guys. Humans were one of the most evil races in WC3.

[Professor Frink]

Pretty much concur. 

Even in RL, certain sets of opponents a "code of honour" even when fighting each other.  Formally, these are embodied in such things as "The Law of Armed Combat" and some of the gallantry exhibited in the early air war of World War One.
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Is there much of anything you can do in WoW that would be a violation of the RL law of war? The only thing I can remember off the top of my head would be surrendering, but is that even possible in WoW? It's not like you can be captured or even put your weapon down and return to civilian life, and soldiers aren't required to let the enemy get away just because they have the advantage.

Unlike D2 where everyone was on the same side and non-duel PvP was automatically a form of betrayal, this really is war and the game mechanics seem to be trying to encourage that sort of aggression (you can't communicate with the other side; mobs will happily kill lowbies and camp their corpse)

The trouble is, one can't count on one's enemy to try to do anything but win.  Therefore, as you suggest, any "code" one adopts is undertaken for one's own reasons, and not out of any expectations that the foe is obligated to mimic you.  I find that a lot of people, RL and Gameside as well, completely don't "get" that.

Occhi
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I think the RL laws of war only obligate you to follow the rules if the other side keeps their end of the deal. Aren't you allowed to shoot surrendering troops if the other side doesn't honor the rules of surrender? (for example, WWII Japan)

-- frink
P.S. I'm not at all an expert on this and probably wrong

[Tal]

Pretty much concur. 

Even in RL, certain sets of opponents a "code of honour" even when fighting each other.  Formally, these are embodied in such things as "The Law of Armed Combat" and some of the gallantry exhibited in the early air war of World War One.

The trouble is, one can't count on one's enemy to try to do anything but win.  Therefore, as you suggest, any "code" one adopts is undertaken for one's own reasons, and not out of any expectations that the foe is obligated to mimic you.  I find that a lot of people, RL and Gameside as well, completely don't "get" that.

Occhi
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I have a hard time affixing real life scenarios in comparison to a game such as World of Warcraft. In real life I have a chance (albeit a very very small one) to take out a Navy Seal. By contrast, I'm certain that I could not take out a level 60 horde member with my level 40 paladin. That being said I prefer a "fair fight" and in my PvP turns on the PvE server I have endeavoured to seek out opponents within 5 levels of my own. If I happen to get stomped by a much higher level horde than that is fine. I write down their name and seek them out when I'm higher level. ;)