Defensive Stance

[Kevin]

Gnolack's final spec is looking to turn out to be:

Fury Mastery
Cruelty Rank 5/5
Improved Demoralizing Shout Rank 5/5
Piercing Howl Rank 1/1
Fury Total: 11

Protection Mastery
Shield Specialization Rank 5/5
Improved Bloodrage Rank 2/2
Toughness Rank 4/5
Last Stand Rank 1/1
Improved Shield Block Rank 1/3
Improved Revenge Rank 3/3
Defiance Rank 5/5
Improved Taunt Rank 2/2
Improved Shield Bash Rank 2/2
Concussion Blow Rank 1/1
One-Handed Weapon Specialization Rank 5/5
Shield Discipline Rank 1/1
Protection Total: 32

Arms Mastery
Deflection Rank 5/5
Tactical Mastery Rank 3/5
Arms Total: 8

What I'm wondering about are the 3 points in Tactical mastery. I'm pretty much here now, except that I have only 1 point in One-Handed spec and don't have Shield Discipline yet. That means I won't get Shield Discipline until I hit 60 unless I respec out of something else. The points in Tactical mastery have made life easier, I can charge pull and clap and not worry about losing rage if I had a crit anywhere, or having to stay in battle stance to dem shout before the change over. I can change over for a low power execute, which is still helpful to contain runners. I've managed to do a few stance changes and overpowers too, though the timing on that is very tricky and I would need to macro it to really be able to pull that off well. It's not enough to be able to switch and thunderclap or whirlwind though.

I'm on a PvE server, I've spent my whole career as a main tank and I'm used to the play style. I'm wondering if I would be better served putting talents somewhere else though. The utility of piercing howl and the extra damage reduction of improved demoralizing shout fit in so well with the play style that I don't think I'm gonna find more benefit for those 11 points. But I am missing out on 2% more armor value or a cheaper sunder (which would be helpful in multiple lock down situations), I've also seen that the exta second I could get on shield block would have allowed me to get the second block in if I had the points there. The 10 defense of anticipation would end up giving me about 0.5% dodge, block and parry as well if I wanted to pull points.

I dual weild a lot, even in defensive stance to help with more damage and because I rarely have a good two hander (I'm still using Grimlok's Charge because I haven't found anything better yet though I think I had an axe in the bank for L54 but I can't get on can check) so I get better damge out of dual wield, one hand weapon spec is only going to improve that. I also think there is something going on with the parry since I have revenge available a lot more with 2 one handers on than I do with a 2 hander, and with how good of an aggro generator revenge is I want to use it as much as possible even if I'm trying to put out more DPS because I'm not getting hurt that much. However I know that I will most likely find better two handers as I start hitting the higher instances, but that just means charge pulls will generate even more rage so I'd miss tactical mastery even more. :)

I'm not in defensive stance if I'm not fighting elites usually either, I'm just not taking enough damage for it to matter and the boost to killing speed is more important. My DPS is still pretty paltry though. I'm just wonder if my bent for protection with a few extra DPS options is a good way to go or if I would be better served to just hunker down more for those later instance. I enjoy playing the "you aren't going to kill me I don't care how many of you there are or how hard you hit" style so I don't mind going that way. Some of the plan for talents was done this way to help with the duo speed with Aleri since she is holy spec and we just don't kill that fast. However unless we are douing elites I'm still in battle stance so tactical mastery isn't doing much for me then.

Just some thoughts on defensive tankery and looking for some input.

[Darian]

I'm on a PvE server, I've spent my whole career as a main tank and I'm used to the play style.  I'm wondering if I would be better served putting talents somewhere else though.
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GG, a few weeks ago I switched from my Arms/Fury build to a heavy Prot build. One of the things I deliberately sacrificed was Tactical Mastery/Anger Management, and my reasoning was pretty simple; it was the same as my reasoning for giving up Mortal Strike and Sweeping Strikes. I wasn't getting utility out of it.

I have found that in PvE, it's generally not necessary for me to build rage prior to combat -- and on those occasions when it's warranted, there's always Bloodrage or rage pots. In addition, you're reaching the point with Gnolack where your ability to effectively use charge as a pulling tactic (or even as an engagement tactic following a CC pull) are going to be more and more limited. Strat and Scholo, for example, are all about aggro range management -- bringing the mobs TO you as opposed to going to them.

What I'd recommend you do before you make any changes to your tree along these lines, though, is simply to try and play mostly in Defensive stance without a lot of stance changes for awhile and see if you really notice an impact which is detrimental to your style of play. The reality is that so long as you're not making your healer burst into stress-induced hysterics every pull because your health bar is dropping faster than an internet stock price, it's vastly more important for you to be comfortable with your method of generating and holding aggro than it is to nickel-and-dime your talent tree to death in search of The Perfect Build™. The difference between the approaches you've seen discussed here over and over attest to that.

Side note: last night, Galreth and I were both in the same 10-man run on Scholo. Even at 57, and making most of the run in Fun Mode ;), Galreth was able to put up a good fight with me for aggro. The main difference between stances really appears to me to be more about damage and stun than about aggro.

[Kevin]

GG, a few weeks ago I switched from my Arms/Fury build to a heavy Prot build.  One of the things I deliberately sacrificed was Tactical Mastery/Anger Management, and my reasoning was pretty simple; it was the same as my reasoning for giving up Mortal Strike and Sweeping Strikes.  I wasn't getting utility out of it.

I have found that in PvE, it's generally not necessary for me to build rage prior to combat -- and on those occasions when it's warranted, there's always Bloodrage or rage pots.  In addition, you're reaching the point with Gnolack where your ability to effectively use charge as a pulling tactic (or even as an engagement tactic following a CC pull) are going to be more and more limited.  Strat and Scholo, for example, are all about aggro range management -- bringing the mobs TO you as opposed to going to them.

What I'd recommend you do before you make any changes to your tree along these lines, though, is simply to try and play mostly in Defensive stance without a lot of stance changes for awhile and see if you really notice an impact which is detrimental to your style of play.  The reality is that so long as you're not making your healer burst into stress-induced hysterics every pull because your health bar is dropping faster than an internet stock price, it's vastly more important for you to be comfortable with your method of generating and holding aggro than it is to nickel-and-dime your talent tree to death in search of The Perfect Build™.  The difference between the approaches you've seen discussed here over and over attest to that.

Side note: last night, Galreth and I were both in the same 10-man run on Scholo.  Even at 57, and making most of the run in Fun Mode ;), Galreth was able to put up a good fight with me for aggro.  The main difference between stances really appears to me to be more about damage and stun than about aggro.
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First I have been a protection spec warrior the whole way through. I didn't put a talent point in another tree until L32 when I started going for piercing howl. I've played full instances without stance switching from defensive. I didn't have tactical mastery until I was L50 and at just 1 point in it, it didn't do much good. So your advice is meaningless I'm very good at holding aggro in defensive stance I can't really hold aggro at all in any other stance, I've tried. Check up in the thread, much of what Ynir does now is based on my advice. So I've only just started playing with heavy stance switching. I'm completely comfortable not doing it all.

Since I haven't seen anything past Sunken Temple as far as instances go you sort of answered the question I was actually asking. I want to know what kind of utility a stance switch will have there. If those points in that tree really make any difference for end game. I enjoy some of the utility they bring, but I certianly don't need it. I want to know how much less utility they will have and if putting 3 or 8 points somewhere else will help. I think that keeping deflection is a good idea.

So what I want is nit picky little advice and opinions. I've main tanked for many of the lurkers, though few of the 60's, unless it was one of their alts (simply because I spread my time around many many chars) and I've never really had any major complaints about my tanking. When something goes wrong I pretty much have known what I screwed up and how to fix it. Yeah, I'm being a little sensitive on this, I know I'm a pretty good tank and your advice pretty much came off as "try to learn how to tank" even if you didn't intend it that way. I've never had mortal strike or sweeping strikes, I know how to live without them. :)

[Bob the Beholder]

I can believe the 'Gnollguy is a good tank' thing. I took all that advice directed at Ynir for my warrior, too, and it has been more effective than anything I've tried or seen tried, by anyone on Gorfiend.

But then, for some reason, even the 'best' tanks there seem determined to never use Sunder Armor or Revenge, never leave Battle Stance, save all their rage to execute one target, and seem to think the occasional thunder clap is enough to hold aggro over a priest spamming heals on their two-hander-wielding selves. (Which it might be, considering the moment something goes wrong the 'tank' is no longer taking all the hits.)

[mjdoom]

I think from Darian's reply and your reply to Darian's reply (ugh, that sounds weird) some questions have actually been answered. Darian basically said that if you don't find you are getting utility from stance switching it's probably not worth it. It seems from your reply that you are perfectly comfortable not stance-switching and thus those points in tactical mastery may not be worth it to you. Especially if you can drop it into defiance or improved sunder it may be very much worth it for you to do so. The fact that you duo with a priest I think makes it a bit easier for you to work in one stance but the reality is that stance-switching (as Darian said) is generally limited in high end instances. If you are already comfortable in defensive stance drop those points in something you will use more.

My personal build involves Arms to Anger Management, Fury is identical, and Protection is similar, I just can't get all the way to weapon spec and shield discipline (due to getting Anger Management). I am putting the points into improved sunder as well. I personally like to have stance switches available (in soloing I stance-switch a lot, not as much in instances but I still use it) so I might not change that unless someone can convince me that shield discipline is that much better. I've still also never been sold on Last Stand so I never put points into Imp. Bloodrage or LS. I think this is a slight difference in playstyle though so you are probably better served putting the points into protection. You can certainly still switch stances if it is necessary and if you are aware you can probably minimize your rage loss when doing so.

Just my $0.02.

- mjdoom

Edit: Just cleaning stuff up.

[Darian]

I'm going to reverse the order of your comments to address them...

Yeah, I'm being a little sensitive on this, I know I'm a pretty good tank and your advice pretty much came off as "try to learn how to tank" even if you didn't intend it that way.  I've never had mortal strike or sweeping strikes, I know how to live without them.  :)

Oh no, I meant nothing of the sort! :o I haven't had the opportunity to play with you, so I don't know your style. A lot of what I was saying was just background so you'd know where I was coming from... sorry if I sounded preachy in the process.

So I've only just started playing with heavy stance switching.  I'm completely comfortable not doing it all.

Since I haven't seen anything past Sunken Temple as far as instances go you sort of answered the question I was actually asking.

Good, 'cause that's what I was actually shooting for. ;)

I want to know what kind of utility a stance switch will have there.  If those points in that tree really make any difference for end game.  I enjoy some of the utility they bring, but I certianly don't need it.  I want to know how much less utility they will have and if putting 3 or 8 points somewhere else will help.

Now that I understand your approach a little better, I think you're on the right track moving off the arms tree. I guess to go into it a little deeper... most pulls in the higher-end instances will be multiple crowd-control pulls, and there'll be almost zero use for Charge. Intercept is of dubious utility, as 90% of the mobs in Strat/Scholo/BRS are going to stand, fight, and die. Overpower is about the only important reason to switch out of Defensive, and even that's iffy. I know I'm about to tell you more stuff you already know, but I'm only doing it to explain my thought process. :)

You don't need rage to hold aggro on a mob you initially pull (unless you're grouped with bozos who unload the arsenal as soon as the war starts); the first couple of whacks are enough to get off a sunder, and then your rage bar is off to the races. I mean, you'll still have to spend some rage to maintain your lockdown, but the idea that you have to spam Sunder and Shield Bash is a little overblown; I spend more of my rage on the beautiful sight of my Revenge icon lighting up than anything. After that, it's just a matter of retaining enough rage to be able to break sheep/shackle by using a Sunder, which is almost always enough to trump the mage/priest's aggro. (Sap isn't really an issue, as just shooting a sapped mob is generally enough.) As a result, I just don't ever see a need to flip stances around in PvE. Even before I respecced, I wasn't getting much benefit in the long run; due to the way mobs are usually pulled in the high-end instances, charging is usually just not a good idea anyway.

[Darian]

I personally like to have stance switches available (in soloing I stance-switch a lot, not as much in instances but I still use it) so I might not change that unless someone can convince me that shield discipline is that much better.[right][snapback]76808[/snapback][/right]

I don't use it too often -- it's expensive in terms of rage and usually only good for two bashes before it expires, after all -- but the beefed-up hate generation can be a real lifesaver when someone important over-aggros.

I've still also never been sold on Last Stand so I never put points into Imp. Bloodrage or LS.

Same here. 99% of the time if Last Stand is going to be useful to me at all, it's either not worth it (party's okay, and all I'm doing is avoiding getting a rez 15 seconds later) or it's pointless (all I'm doing is delaying a wipe by 20 seconds). Last Stand seems to me to be a protection against lousy healers, and I don't have any lousy healers. ;)

[Drasca]

Last Stand seems to me to be a protection against lousy healers, and I don't have any lousy healers.  ;)
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Its not very good in PvP either against priests and warlocks. It is an obvious signal you've lost your fear immunity.

At least, not terribly useful against this warlock B)

[Kevin]

This is in response to both of Darian's posts and Mjdoom I'm being a little lazy and not splitting and quoting like I could. :)

I disagree on Last Stand at least for early game. I've had it help save wipes several times. Sometimes I've died but it was enough to get the healer enough mana to do a prayer of healing which gave the rest of the party enough life to kill the rest of the mobs. That specific case was when were all doing a quest we were unfamilar with and just didn't know how the spawns were going to happen so things got messy and everyone got hurt. I've used it to stay alive long enough to kill off one more mob who's DPS would have killed one or two more party members and caused a total wipe.

It doesn't just help with poor healing. I find it's main use is to help with unexpected situations or to get you through things that you are a bit underleveled for. The extra time of having a living warrior to get the healers mana pot out of cooldown or something else like that is helpful.

All that being said, I still have debated taking those 3 points and using them somewhere elee, improved bloodrage doesn't really matter since blood rage is so overwhelmed by renews or well fed bonus, or whatever else and it seems that Last Stand will have less utility the bigger I get. I've also debated not getting shield discipline at all as I see it somewhat like you guys see Last Stand. It seems to be really only helpful if someone over aggros, however I've never had a chance to use it, like I have with Last Stand, so I can't get a personal feel on it, part of the reason I was looking at getting it.

Thanks for these responses, this is the level of debate I'm looking for on this stuff. I know I can just keep going the way I'm going see how it goes and then change again, the game is pretty cool that way, but I like to get nitty gritty detial opinions on some of it before I see it too.

One of the things I do like about the charge pull is that even with heavy CC (in temple we were 4 manning with 2 mages, a priest and me) we would time it so that I would charge then clap, after that the CC would be applied so we might have 2 mobs sheeped and one shackled. I could then dem shout and not break CC. What this meant though was an unexpected CC break had the mob on me already because the clap and dem shout was hated more than the CC effect. That allowed me to revenge or disarm or sunder or do whatever I wanted to the one or two tagets that were still standing. It was also nice to do with the groups of one or two elites with the 4 or 5 non elites (used it in Uldaman and in ST) it would all the AoE'r to usually get one round off without taking aggro from the non elites. The next AoE would grab them but I would still be able to usually keep the 2 elites on me (unless I had problems switching targets). If I could get a clap, dem shout and howl off I could hold them even better. I didn't have any tactical mastery in Uldaman and things didn't work as well because I generally had to wait in battle stance to dem shout or lose 5 to 10 rage. That had me taking more damage or delaying another AoE aggro generator and it usually meant I couldn't howl at all to help hold them for some of the AoE either or allow a ranged AoE to pull them off while they moved out slower to the mage. But I could still use the tactic, just not as well.

I have no idea if this type of pull will work in higher instances and while I can do it without tactical mastery, TM allows me to be "sloppier" about the stance switches. I do like to use clap when I can, not for it's aggro control, but for it's damage mitigation, as short as that may be as well. Unfortunately you can't use it in a lot of situations because you don't want to break CC. :)

So again I'm trying to give some more examples of how I'm using this so you guys can give better answers as well, should have done more of that earlier. :)

I'm willing to debate any of the talents I have points in or am thinking about putting them in. I'm trying to just get to my final tweak as fast as I can. :)

[Treesh]

It was also nice to do with the groups of one or two elites with the 4 or 5 non elites (used it in Uldaman and in ST) it would all the AoE'r to usually get one round off without taking aggro from the non elites.  The next AoE would grab them but I would still be able to usually keep the 2 elites on me (unless I had problems switching targets).  If I could get a clap, dem shout and howl off I could hold them even better.  I didn't have any tactical mastery in Uldaman and things didn't work as well because I generally had to wait in battle stance to dem shout or lose 5 to 10 rage.  That had me taking more damage or delaying another AoE aggro generator and it usually meant I couldn't howl at all to help hold them for some of the AoE either or allow a ranged AoE to pull them off while they moved out slower to the mage.  But I could still use the tactic, just not as well.
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And this is also part of the reason why me not preshielding the mages for AoEs developed, as brought up here. ;)

[Darian]

One of the things I do like about the charge pull is that even with heavy CC (in temple we were 4 manning with 2 mages, a priest and me) we would time it so that I would charge then clap, after that the CC would be applied so we might have 2 mobs sheeped and one shackled.

...

I have no idea if this type of pull will work in higher instances...[right][snapback]76823[/snapback][/right]

It can; I think the critical difference here may be our respective usual party compositions. It's nigh impossible to go on a level 60 Lurker/Carpe Aurum run, especially a 10-man, without a rogue or three, and we tend to rely on a lot of saps -- which, of course, must be applied pre-combat, and which will be broken by any AoE at the point of attack... ruling out TC.

Even with that caveat, though, there are just a metric buttload of places in Strat/Scholo/BRS where you really need to bring the mobs to you (which also rules out sap as a CC option), because if you CC them at the spawn point the chances of getting additional aggro from nearby camps is entirely too high, or because you're pulling a group of mobs into an entirely different room to take advantage of LoS. In these cases, it's still of course possible to charge mid-pull if you're not the puller, but one of the benefits of charge is stopping the mob while it's still at range. That's not so much effective when you're trying to drag the mobs back to the party.

[Kevin]

It can; I think the critical difference here may be our respective usual party compositions.  It's nigh impossible to go on a level 60 Lurker/Carpe Aurum run, especially a 10-man, without a rogue or three, and we tend to rely on a lot of saps -- which, of course, must be applied pre-combat, and which will be broken by any AoE at the point of attack... ruling out TC.

Even with that caveat, though, there are just a metric buttload of places in Strat/Scholo/BRS where you really need to bring the mobs to you (which also rules out sap as a CC option), because if you CC them at the spawn point the chances of getting additional aggro from nearby camps is entirely too high, or because you're pulling a group of mobs into an entirely different room to take advantage of LoS.  In these cases, it's still of course possible to charge mid-pull if you're not the puller, but one of the benefits of charge is stopping the mob while it's still at range.  That's not so much effective when you're trying to drag the mobs back to the party.
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Good to know. This is exactly the stuff I'm looking for. While I've casually read some of the info on higher instances I didn't really try to absorb it, because I know it will still be a fair bit of time before I see it because of how I play my characters. But it is really sounding like, as you said earlier, that the TM utility gets less and less. That is what I'm thinking about Last Stand as well.

That would mean, if I drop Last Stand, that I could free up 6 points which would allow me put one more point in to max out Toughness, put 3 points in Improved Sunder, and have 2 points to put in anticipation or improved Sunder or even improved Shield Wall (doing that would be like effectively only losing 15 seconds on last stand, though I can't wall as often as I can stand).

Just makes me go hmmm even more. :) I don't see the 5 points in deflection or the 11 points in the fury tree going anywhere, I would need some strong arguments agains those.

[swirly]

Alright, I have a warrior question that now seems like a decent time to bring up since you are talking about dropping Shield Discipline. My question is to if Improved Shield Bash is still worth the 2 points then? It seems to me that the 6 second interuption from a normal Shield Bash is probably fine in most situations. The silence being cast by the Improved version may generate even more hate though. So thats my basic question, does the talent Improved Shield Bash cause Shield Bash to generate more hate because of the silence or is the hate the same without the talent?

[Darian]

Just makes me go hmmm even more. :)  I don't see the 5 points in deflection or the 11 points in the fury tree going anywhere, I would need some strong arguments agains those.
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Well, that's exactly where I have all my non-protection points, so someone else is going to have to try and convince you not to keep them there. :lol:

[Kevin]

Alright, I have a warrior question that now seems like a decent time to bring up since you are talking about dropping Shield Discipline.  My question is to if Improved Shield Bash is still worth the 2 points then?  It seems to me that the 6 second interuption from a normal Shield Bash is probably fine in most situations.  The silence being cast by the Improved version may generate even more hate though.  So thats my basic question, does the talent Improved Shield Bash cause Shield Bash to generate more hate because of the silence or is the hate the same without the talent?
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I don't know if it causes more hate, but I don't use it much for hate, I use it for the utility it grants you. I don't have to worry about timing it, it seems to work on critters that don't have mana but still use abilities to snare or poison or whatever you that unimproved can't do (I can't be sure on that though since sometimes those mobs don't use the abilities anyway), and if you want to move a mob around you can bash them and start moving them immediately since they can't switch schools (and mobs after 40 generally have 2 or 3 schools of spells) to just cast something else. So that is utility that I am using way to much right now to want to give up.

I also figure that if I drop just the 3 points in tactical mastery I wouldn't have any need to drop shield disciple so I would really want to still have the points in it then.

Right now if I give something up it looks like the order they would go would be tactical mastery, last stand, improved bloodrage, shield discipline. Though that hinges on seeing if there are more arguments for the versatility of TM. If I drop more than that I might as well really change the build around and either go deeper in the fury or arms tree. There are some good benefits of things like anger management for a turtle (the passive in combat rage generation) and other skills in those trees.

[mjdoom]

This got long, I'm sorry. But it gives a lot of my perspectives on how I have build my warrior from about 40 onward. As full disclosure I filled up all of my arms and fury talent points before dropping more than 5 into protection and then once I got what I wanted in arms/fury every single point since then has been put into protection to build up for end game tanking duty. I put 4 points into Unbridled Wrath that I don't want any more (which delayed my protection talents) but I don't want to bother with a respec until I hit 60 and get a full feel for how the character plays. It also allows me to have discussions like this BEFORE I respec just in case I change my mind :)

I have no idea if this type of pull will work in higher instances and while I can do it without tactical mastery, TM allows me to be "sloppier" about the stance switches. 

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I have used this type of pull all the way up through Dire Maul for certain and even when leaving Scarlet Strat to get to TIMMY! Any time that it is safe to charge a crowd that will be AOEed I think that it is a big benefit if you can charge in, thunderclap, Demo, and Howl. This will minimize damge to everyone involved and probably even allow you to hold aggro for a tick longer. However, Darian's points are also important. Some places charging to meet the mobs is a bad idea and you need to pull them toward you...

In these cases one of two things will happen. First is that due to the nature of the pull there is too much risk of breaking CC. In this case you are probably best to go straight for the most dangerous mob to try to lock it down within the AOE (but keeping it off the squishees) and unleash a demo as soon as possible to limit the damge to the squishees from the other. If you happen to have two tanks each one can take an elite mob and this will make it a lot easier to keep the squishees safe. The second case is where you need to pull the mobs toward you but for whatever reason CC is easier to implement "safely" away from AOE. In this case just have someone else pull (even a priest wand pull is fine here as aggro will be transferred almost immediately by the AOE) and then charge the mobs when they get at a safe distance and do your TC/Demo/PH routine. In this case for extra safety you might want to have the pull shot hit the mob that you will be charging.

To be perfectly honest these are some of the situations in groups that I still like having Tactical Mastery. That said if you are good (and just a touch patient) with applying TC/Demo and then stance switching you probably won't lose much rage at all. I still find Tactical Mastery to be of more use when I am soloing, especially against tough mobs that I want to fight in defensive and then execute at the end.

The question as I see it for you is whether you want those three points or if you want improved sunder and/or the last point in anticipation. I personally love the idea of improved sunder as it allows you to lay down those sunders quicker and still have rage open if necessary for things like shield bash. Any chance you can lower the rage cost of a skill you use constantly seems like a good investment to me. Sunder is almost certainly the button I hit most often when I am tanking (with Revenge easily being second) so lowering the rage cost of that skill seems like a big winner in my book.

I look at defiance as (a little bit of) free mitigation. I am personally enamored of the idea of stopping damage before it ever happens. For this reason I value things like dodge/parry above blocking and way above AC. I figure that if you are wearing a lot of plate your AC will be respectable anyway, I'd rather focus on higher levels of mitigation where possible. From the time I could commission Katrin to make ornate mithril pieces for me I have focused on +dodge% up until I've finally started collecting my +def pieces. It is less consistent mitigation (AC always helps, a dodge or parry is obviously just a chance) but when it works it's awesome. I have charted fights agains mobs a level or two below me and come out of fights where I either dodged, parried, or fully blocked more than half of the mob's attacks. AC doesn't even matter here, I've stopped the damage before it even started over half of the time!

I've heard of slow soloing speed for warriors due to less than peak damage and the need to eat/bandage constantly. I can tell from the timer on Demo that I routinely kill mobs slightly below or even to my level in about 40 seconds on average and can routinely fight at least 4-5 in quick succession before I even have to worry about food or bandaging. I am so confident in my character's mitigation ability that I routinely engage mobs of equal level with only half health knowing that I will come out on top unless I get added on (and then I run). I always have a heal pot or invulnerability pot and bandage ready to go if it becomes necessary but that really doesn't happen often. This is obviously not as much of a concern for you with Aleri behind you but it still speaks to what mitigation I'm getting. This is also more regularly in battle stance (so I can kill faster while soloing).

One other little side note here is that in my attempt to max my mitigation and keep my soloing speed reasonable I am actually (at level 57!!!) still wearing two pieces of mail. I found better agi/stam boosts with mail pieces for both my hands and belt for now. This means that I'm directly giving up at least 300 AC simply for some extra dodge chance and crit chance. Not only that, but I've heard that AC drops off in effectiveness as you crest 8000 AC. I'm nowhere near that yet but it seems to me that simply trying to max AC might seem like the "safe" way but is less than ideal if you are looking for damage mitigation.

So, after rambling on forever the last thing that comes to mind is the idea of losing some points in weapon specialization. This might decrease your damage a bit but we as tanks know that our damage is only a small cotributor to the whole and is only a very minor part of hate generation. With a good 1h weapon you might have a max damage of 150 or so. With a 10% bonus that is only doing (at best) an extra 15 damage per swing. If you put some of those points into sunder and/or defiance you might get more utility from them while still allowing a few points for some tactical mastery. I personally consider my weapon damage bonus to be in crits or extra damage from strength bonuses to AP.

So a suggestion might be this: Leave Arms/Fury as they are. I will assume you haven't put any points into 1h weapon spec yet considering your level and what you have said thus far. Drop 4 points from weapon spec and put them into Improved Sunder and the last point of anticipation. The last point can still be put into weapon spec (it has to be in protection anyway so you can get shield discipline). This will give you a slight weapon bonus that is more than you already have anyway and you will have never had the larger bonus to feel like you've missed it anyway. Then you can play with shield discipline and see if you like it. This saves you from respeccing now so that if you want to respec later it will be cheaper as it will only be your first respec. I realize that this means you still can't get shield discipline until 60 but the only way to change that at this point is to drop those tactical mastery points. I get the feeling that if you play with tactical mastery for a few more levels (especially since you got it only recently) you will get a better feel of whether you really want it or not. Then by the time you hit 60 you will have been able to experiment with both tactical mastery and shield discipline and make a more informed decision of what you really like.

When all is said and done I think you will be an effective tank either way so go with what suits you best.

- mjdoom

P.S. Sorry that was so long. Thanks for reading so far...

Edit: D'oh, I misread your build and read defiance as anticipation, blarg. I am going to leave my comments stand as they are but I would consider the balance of toughness/anticipation then and possibly take all 5 points out of weapon spec. Also, if you do decide to drop Last Stand then you can almost max both of them.

[mjdoom]

Well, that's exactly where I have all my non-protection points, so someone else is going to have to try and convince you not to keep them there.  :lol:
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I give roughly a 0% chance of me trying to change your mind here :P

[mjdoom]

Edit: D'oh, I misread your build and read defiance as anticipation, blarg. 
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Yeah, replying to my own ridiculously long post, what other stupid tricks can he come up with? :huh:

Anyway, it just dawned on me that I don't have a single talent point into defiance and I never really thought to put any in. Every time I have looked at it I've fallen back on the fact that I've pretty much never had trouble holding aggro other than in "fun" situations where I had some overlevelled mages, 'locks and rogues ignoring aggro because they had no fear of dying. Still, I haven't tanked in the end game (Strat/Scholo/BRS) yet. Has anyone tried doing a build with and without defiance and seen what differences it may hold? I'm now curious as to whether I should try to respec to get this or just continue to ignore it as a "nice but not necessary" talent.

Any thoughts?

- mjdoom

[Kevin]

I have used this type of pull all the way up through Dire Maul for certain and even when leaving Scarlet Strat to get to TIMMY!  Any time that it is safe to charge a crowd that will be AOEed I think that it is a big benefit if you can charge in, thunderclap, Demo, and Howl.  This will minimize damge to everyone involved and probably even allow you to hold aggro for a tick longer.  However, Darian's points are also important.  Some places charging to meet the mobs is a bad idea and you need to pull them toward you...

Yep, understood and there are times when I start a pull with a bow in defensive stance or do a CC pull or other types. I'm pretty familar with and used to working with most every type of CC, except SAP and I've worked with other's being the puller too. This all jives with what I have said and what I have experienced.

To be perfectly honest these are some of the situations in groups that I still like having Tactical Mastery.  That said if you are good (and just a touch patient) with applying TC/Demo and then stance switching you probably won't lose much rage at all.  I still find Tactical Mastery to be of more use when I am soloing, especially against tough mobs that I want to fight in defensive and then execute at the end.

Yep. TM just makes it easier to do.

The question as I see it for you is whether you want those three points or if you want improved sunder and/or the last point in anticipation.  I personally love the idea of improved sunder as it allows you to lay down those sunders quicker and still have rage open if necessary for things like shield bash.  Any chance you can lower the rage cost of a skill you use constantly seems like a good investment to me.  Sunder is almost certainly the button I hit most often when I am tanking (with Revenge easily being second) so lowering the rage cost of that skill seems like a big winner in my book. 

I agree and that was the main skill that I was lacking that I wanted that got me really thinking about it. I first looked at TM, but as you say there are other places to look for the points.

I am personally enamored of the idea of stopping damage before it ever happens.  For this reason I value things like dodge/parry above blocking and way above AC. 

I agree with this, the points were put in toughness early on and I have debated on moving them to anticipation. I'm still wearing mail bracers and I just replaced my mail belt with a blue one that I got in ST, well I had another plate one that was sent to me but I was still debating it and the mail one I had. The other side is that 10% more armor from items makes those lower AC +def or +agi items become closer in AC effectiveness, yeah yeah the higher AC stuff becomes even more effective, but I don't look at it that way. :)

I've heard of slow soloing speed for warriors due to less than peak damage and the need to eat/bandage constantly.  I can tell from the timer on Demo that I routinely kill mobs slightly below or even to my level in about 40 seconds on average and can routinely fight at least 4-5 in quick succession before I even have to worry about food or bandaging.  I am so confident in my character's mitigation ability that I routinely engage mobs of equal level with only half health knowing that I will come out on top unless I get added on (and then I run).  I always have a heal pot or invulnerability pot and bandage ready to go if it becomes necessary but that really doesn't happen often.  This is obviously not as much of a concern for you with Aleri behind you but it still speaks to what mitigation I'm getting.  This is also more regularly in battle stance (so I can kill faster while soloing).

While Aleri and I duo pretty much all the time with pretty much zero downtime, I may add, we still do solo stuff. Some of the collection quests we will solo because it doesn't feel as much of a grind or one of us doesn't want to grind while the other does. But my solo experience is pretty much the same as yours, I start fights at half health, I chain 4 or 5 before eating/bandaging, etc. I've got my parry and dodge at around 11-12% and that is where I would like to keep them at least. I try to hold about 50% damage reduction with a shield on as well. Best of both worlds type of deal. I also pretty much never use defensive stance outside of an instance, unless we somehow manage to get a ton of mobs. That was one of my arguments against TM for me. I don't use it outside at all really, and it gets less useful the higher level you get.

So, after rambling on forever the last thing that comes to mind is the idea of losing some points in weapon specialization. ...  I personally consider my weapon damage bonus to be in crits or extra damage from strength bonuses to AP.

So a suggestion might be this: Leave Arms/Fury as they are.  I will assume you haven't put any points into 1h weapon spec yet considering your level and what you have said thus far. ...  Then you can play with shield discipline and see if you like it.  This saves you from respeccing now so that if you want to respec later it will be cheaper as it will only be your first respec.

I've got a pretty decent one hander in my Viking Warhammer so I'm lucky with one handers even if I'm not lucky with 2 Handers. :) I have one point in weapon spec that I just put in there. Not sure why I didn't put that in Improved Sunder, I think I was still thinking of that talent the way it was before they changed it to reducing rage cost. I look at it more as an extension of defiance as opposed to more damage. I'm also not sure how it might interact with defiance. My points went into defiance early and it, like subtlety on a healer, is something that is hard to judge the effectiveness on. The other advantage for me of weapon mastery is that it will help my off hand as well. Since I will dual wield in def stance if I'm not really stressing the healer (easy to tell when she is in the same room) to up damage and aggro, the one hand weapon spec helps me even more. Of course now that I just got a Razor Axe of the Monkey That is +17 on both str and agi I can probably do better damage with that on than my Viking hammer and my Warlord Axe of the Tiger that I have in my off hand.

But I may just go with 2 in weapon spec, 3 in improved sunder and leave the rest be as well. It's lots to think about.

When all is said and done I think you will be an effective tank either way so go with what suits you best.

Thanks. Yeah, I think I can be effective regardless since I think I have been pretty effective so far, but I'm trying to do a bit of optimization while minimizing experimentaiton, like you said earlier, good to know before you pay for a respec. :)

[Thawwing Light]

I can believe the 'Gnollguy is a good tank' thing.  I took all that advice directed at Ynir for my warrior, too, and it has been more effective than anything I've tried or seen tried, by anyone on Gorfiend. 

But then, for some reason, even the 'best' tanks there seem determined to never use Sunder Armor or Revenge, never leave Battle Stance, save all their rage to execute one target, and seem to think the occasional thunder clap is enough to hold aggro over a priest spamming heals on their two-hander-wielding selves.  (Which it might be, considering the moment something goes wrong the 'tank' is no longer taking all the hits.)
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Pffft... I personally know a lot of Gorefiend. including some of the voted 'best Warriors,' and I can say take what they say and do with a grain of salt. You wouldn't believe my conversation about why multiple weapon masteries is a BAD idea...

Just don't listen to anything Zevek says, and you'll do well ;]. (note: not the Warrior I had the conversation with, but the reason I left the server)