Defensive Stance

[Tal]

First off, A Warrior's job IMHO is NOT to pull. A Warrior has minimal ranged abilities and virtually NO crowd-control abilities, both of which are ESSENTIAL to proper pulling. [right][snapback]66387[/snapback][/right]

Except if the warrior pulls he's automatically at the top of every mob's hate list and I don't have to pull aggro off a rogue. Not saying that a rogue can't pull or a hunter, just why many warriors prefer to do the pulling.

Now, let's analyze your observations, one by one. You state that a Warrior's job is to stand there and get beat on while everyone ELSE piles on the damage. This is wholly absurd. First off, Warriors are DPS machines. The only ones who can compete with them are Rogues and Mages - the former not being able to stand up to long fights due to medium Health, and the latter having to cast spells from afar.
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hahahahahahahahahaha - the idea of any warrior, in the current state of the realms being a DPS machine on par with rogues, mages and hunters is what is absurd. To do any damage the warrior has to be in Battle or Berserker Stance - both of which are not ideal for controlling aggro. Not saying it can't be done, just that the best skills for maintaining aggro are in defensive stance and they have the best damage mitigating abilities in defensive. I once grouped with a warrior for temple who stayed in Beserk stance for multi-mob pulls (many mobs there are immune to poly and sap incidentally) and the priest AND me healing him continuously were not enough to keep him alive in Berserker stance. We tried the pull again (after rezing) in defensive and lived through it.

If the Rogue can pull a single mob, without worry of attracting any further attention, he should do so with a ranged Throw attack, and then run back to JUST behind or beside the Tank(s) (but NOT any further, as you do NOT want the mob getting close to the casters). He then should perform a Feint, while maintaining NO offensive action towards his target (a quick left-click while running from the mob will remove you from attacking it, thus allowing you to stand still while the Tank attempts to get aggro). The Tank(s)'s job is to sit tight while the Rogue does this, and once the mob gets within range, IMMEDIATELY pull out all his aggro-inducing skills and start whailing on the mob. Casters should, obviously, wait several seconds before unloading any heavy damage, as should the Rogue, although most Rogues can handle a few beatings without trouble AND can use Feint, Gouge, or Vanish to remove themselves from harm.
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If a rogue can pull a single mob with a ranged throw, so can I with a bow or gun. And in later instances there will be multi-mob pulls because the critters in question are immune to sap or polymorph - the dragons in Temple being an example of this. And iirc the undead in places such as Scholomance are immune to sap and polymorph as well. The idea of always having the rogue or hunter pull is as much a fallacy as stating a warrior should always pull. Adapt to the situation at hand and fully expect for things to go wrong. There are times when you're going to want everything pounding on the warrior rather than a rogue and times where you'll want a hunter to pull at a greater range. Adapt.

As a Tank, your job is to stand put and maintain aggro. If for any reason a mob breaks off from you, you are NOT to break combat with your current mob to engage the other. You ARE supposed to attempt to use your short-ranged aggro-inducing skills (you have Shouts for a reason; use them), while holding your ground and keeping your original target on YOU. If your original target was the only target you were facing, then and ONLY then do you EVER move to where the casters are, at which point you pull the mob off, and then THEY back off to a safe distance once more, while you stand still and hold the mob's aggro. But if there are multiple mobs, and one should break off from you and head for a caster, it is the ROGUE'S job to pull that mob off, NOT yours.
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That is the recipe for dead rogue in my experience. Its the tank's responsibility to maintain aggro on all hostiles. If one breaks for the casters and there isn't another tank around then I'm going after it if for no other reason than the priest has more mana to cast on keeping me alive without having to worry about healing the rogue too. I hate to keep saying this but its unfortunately true: in later instances mobs will chew through a rogue's armor like paper. Any party looking to do these instances will have to have the ability to add another tank into the fight whether it be pet, paladin, shaman, or even hunter to be effective. If your'e going to act as a peeler than your best bet as a rogue is to gouge and wait for the tank to regain aggro before turning back to the main mob.

Wait for the cavalry to arrive and pull the mob off you. A Mage firing off a Frost Nova,  a Warlock casting Fear, or a Priest casting Psychic Scream are about the only exceptions to this. [right][snapback]66387[/snapback][/right]

With the exception of the frost nova this is also a recipe for disaster. Fear and Psychic scream are the enemies of crowd control in instances. Don't DO IT. The last thing I need as a tank is to have to scramble madly after a set of mobs because a warlock or priest panicked and feared/screamed.

Once the Rogue has pulled aggro off the casters, it is up to HIM whether or not he can handle that solo mob by himself (and Healers come into play here; a Rogue is not nearly as sturdy as a Warrior, Paladin, or Bear-form Druid, so we may require at least some healing to survive). If he can, then by all means he should do so. The battle has already gotten way more complicated than it should have; no need to make things any more complicated and risk making matters worse. If, however, the Rogue cannot, for any reason, handle the mob solo, he should then quickly decide how best to handle the situation. If the target was Sapped (see above), then the target will be taken care of for at least 25 seconds, provided no one else does something stupid - like damage the mob. Otherwise, the Rogue's best option at this point is generally the same as the process for pulling. That is, the Rogue should draw the monster back into the Tank(s)'s melee range and then STOP inducing any aggro. Feint is specifically designed to do nothing BUT reduce aggro, while the Tank(s) has skills geared towards GAINING aggro which he should use.
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I would prefer, as the tank, for the rogue to not attempt to offtank an add. Mana spent healing more than is necessary can spell disaster for a long fight. Its better if the priest doesn't have to spend any on unnecessary heroics. If I've lost aggro on a mob and it goes for the squishies then I go after it. The mob I still have aggro on will follow and I can bring the add back into the fold. This is why I prefer that mages/warlocks follow the main assist advice that Olon posted.

I hope I wasn't too harsh, but I HATE it when some cocky Warrior automatically assumes not only that he is the God to pulling, but that whenever a battle goes sour, it's always the Rogue's fault. I'm not saying that, in your experience, the Rogue hasn't caused his share of problems, but that is ENTIRELY due to you playing with apparently horrendous players, and not due to any inherent weaknesses within yourself or any other class. That you actually bought into all that BS is just all the more saddening, [right][snapback]66387[/snapback][/right]

Things will go wrong in battle. The key to it is knowing the capabilities of your fellow party mates and communicating. If there is a bad pull then it is my responsibility as tank to gain all the aggro I can to protect the squishies. If the rogue can help by gouging one and assisting the squishies with whittling down the numbers all the better. But if we wipe on a bad pull the entire party is at fault.

As a mild aside, I spoke earlier about a bad patch in an instance where I learned the hard way that it's up to the Rogue to pull mobs off a caster. We were going up against Van Cleef, and everything was going fine. I had thrown a Distraction in the room, attracting the attention of Cleef and his henchmen. I pulled the big VC with a Throwing knife to the face (he was none too pleased with this, and came out to tell me as much), the Tank (a Paladin, IIRC) immediately pounced on him and took aggro off me in a matter of seconds, and I was busy chewing him and his minions to pieces with my attacks. Where everything broke down was when he summoned up more minions, and they almost immediately went after the casters. I, foolishly, thought I should stay on VC, as I had always heard that the Rogue was a DPS machine and as such felt my place was at the Tank's side. [right][snapback]66387[/snapback][/right]

The key to winning that scenario is for the tank to occupy Van Cleef and for the party to take down the rogues as quickly as possible. Also a rogue should be kept in some form of crowd control ie gouged or Polymorphed. Once both rogues are dead the party shifts their attention back to VC until he spawns more and the process is repeated.

In battle, the Rogue controls the flow of battle, letting everyone else play the more specific roles. Think of a Rogue as yourself while playing an RTS - the Mages are your heavy artillery, the Healers are self-explanatory, and the Tanks are the bulk of your offensive arm - while also adding in your own bit to the offensive front.
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I'm sorry but the flow of battle is dictated by the healer not the rogue. Not the tank and not the casters. You rail against being shoe-horned into a DPS machine but are more than willing to do the same to your party mates. Each class brings something to a fight but that group won't get very far without healing. If the healer doesn't have mana then the group should not proceed. If it looks like there are going to be more adds than the group is comfortable with then it is up to the group to decide on what CC to use, to communicate a battle plan for everyone to use.

[Concillian]

First off, A Warrior's job IMHO is NOT to pull. A Warrior has minimal ranged abilities and virtually NO crowd-control abilities, both of which are ESSENTIAL to proper pulling. A Hunter is probably the best puller, combining exceptional ranged attacks, strong HP, decent armor, and a pet to make the easiest pulling possible. A Rogue, OTOH, comes in second, FAR above any Warrior. We have ranged attacks (Thrown most notable, but Bows and Crossbows we can use, as well), Stealth (aside from a Mage casting Invisibility on someone, there's no one else who can move around undetected), and a plethora of crowd control and aggro REDUCING skills. As such, we are fully equipped to deal with pulling a mob, and then losing the aggro.
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Stealth is nice, but I've always thought pulling with a rogue was not right. Give up your opener so you can throw a knife at VC? Anyone can shoot a gun at a mob, there's nothing that makes the rogue more able to do this than any other calss. Scouting is one thing, but pulling is quite another.

IMO it's much better for the party as a whole for the rogue(s) to stay stealthed for the pull. Let the warrior or hunter pull then hit an opener on the primary target... Garrotte does good DOT, Cheap Shot will give your tank a little time without being beat on.

[Ynir]

I want to thank all of you for this discussion.

I will study the thread carefully, make changes to my action bars and talents, and retrain.

I will report whether matters improve. Certainly, they can't get any worse. My group got wiped in Maudaron last night because I couldn't keep the healers alive.

[Ynir]

I wanted to start a discussion, not an argument. No need to take offense at what I said.

Spangles is Alliance, Stormrage. One problem is that at lvl 52 she is the highest lvl chr in her guild because everyone who attained that lvl before her got siphoned off into bigger guilds. This means she has to work with pickup groups, which is fun but not very edifying.

[Roland]

I wanted to start a discussion, not an argument. No need to take offense at what I said.

Spangles is Alliance, Stormrage.  One problem is that at lvl 52 she is the highest lvl chr in her guild because everyone who attained that lvl before her got siphoned off into bigger guilds.  This means she has to work with pickup groups, which is fun but not very edifying.
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No argument started. Perhaps my tongue got the better of me in lashing you. ;) Meh, maybe I was in a bad mood. I tried to make a conscious effort not to be too much of an ass, if at all, but mayhap some leaked through anyway. My apologies if I offended you in return.

You could always join the Lurkers guild on Stormrage. We have a large, good crowd going, with plenty of people in their 50's (much moreso active players in the high levels than low levels, let me tell you, much to my disappointment). Might be worth a look.

At any rate, good luck to you in your grouping, and I hope your situations improve.

[Artega]

GG, I hate to say it, but Protection just isn't worth the investment. There are level 60 31/20 Arms/Fury warriors who hold aggro better and cause less downtime than level 60 protection-spec warriors in BRD and BRS/UBRS.

They cause more damage than the Protection warrior(s), which causes more hate, and also reduces the amount of time required to bring down the mobs in question. In their five-man group (lvl 60 AF warrior, lvl 60 PF warrior, lvl 60 mage, lvl 60 priest, lvl 60 rogue), the AF warrior locked aggro before the PF warrior could, and didn't need to be healed very often, even in Berserker stance. I was talking to the (Holy-specc'd) Priest, and she said that she didn't have to drink once throughout the entire BRD run.

[Treesh]

GG, I hate to say it, but Protection just isn't worth the investment.  There are level 60 31/20 Arms/Fury warriors who hold aggro better and cause less downtime than level 60 protection-spec warriors in BRD and BRS/UBRS.
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And there are other ways to play than the min/max crap. GG and I both play for fun. He's having fun playing his protection specced warrior and we do just fine for now which is all that matters to us. We aren't dragging anyone down in the instances we've run so far and level 60 is a long way off. When we get to 60 if GG feels the need to respec, he can easily and since he hasn't respec'd yet it'll be a pittance to change at that time. Why kill the fun we're having right now in preparation for something that's still 30 levels off and simple enough to change then?

Edit: If anyone wants to play the min/max game, fine. More power to you and I hope you have fun playing that way. For me, it's crap, but for others, do what's fun for you.

Edit2: And there are good Arms/Fury warriors out there. There are also crappy ones who'll cause your group to wipe every time. Mentioning one group that had a gimpy protection spec'd warrior doesn't prove your point. It just proves that that particular warrior may not have been playing the best at that time. And look at all the "warriors are gimped" comments you see popping up all over, even from the lower level warriors. I don't agree with those either because of what I've seen little Gnolack do. I reiterate - we're having fun and we aren't fouling up everyone else because of the protection spec so just let him play the way he wants to play.

[Kevin]

GG, I hate to say it, but Protection just isn't worth the investment.  There are level 60 31/20 Arms/Fury warriors who hold aggro better and cause less downtime than level 60 protection-spec warriors in BRD and BRS/UBRS.

They cause more damage than the Protection warrior(s), which causes more hate, and also reduces the amount of time required to bring down the mobs in question.  In their five-man group (lvl 60 AF warrior, lvl 60 PF warrior, lvl 60 mage, lvl 60 priest, lvl 60 rogue), the AF warrior locked aggro before the PF warrior could, and didn't need to be healed very often, even in Berserker stance.  I was talking to the (Holy-specc'd) Priest, and she said that she didn't have to drink once throughout the entire BRD run.
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Like I said, Gnolack was mad to see what playing a defensive spec'd warrior the whole way through was like. I have another fury/arms build that I am working on as well just to see how that goes.

I have yet to play with a arms or fury spec'd (in the early 30's you are one or the other not both yet) warrior who has been able to hold aggro better than me if I wanted to hold it. There have been times that it didn't matter if I held it so I didn't bother but I could alway get and maintain aggro when I wanted to.

If things change, things change. In the 20-30 range through I have yet to run across a better aggro holder than a proctection spec warrior. I have yet to have a healer complain about me either. Besides this thread was asking advice on how to work protection spec warriors, so I gave it. I'm having a lot of fun with my protection guy so I personally think it is worth it right now. I'm not saying I'm not open to change. I'm not saying I might not be wrong. This is why I'm building a fury/arms warrior just so I can see some of the differences. But since I am having fun and not hurting anyone else that I play with, it is very much worth it.

[Artega]

Too much caffeine?

I wasn't knocking GG's form of play, merely saying that it's generally more efficient to be Arms/Fury than Protection/Fury. I have a lot of fun as a Protection Warrior, since I'm nigh unkillable, but instance runs go MUCH faster when I'm doing damage in addition to tanking, and Protection quite simply isn't worth crap for PvP. But, given that you're both on the PvE server, that probably doesn't hold much sway over you.

[Treesh]

Too much caffeine?
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No. Too many other idiots telling people how to make and play their own characters for min/max purposes and not allowing people to just have fun.

[Artega]

No.  Too many other idiots telling people how to make and play their own characters for min/max purposes and not allowing people to just have fun.
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Like I said, I found Protection to be fun, but I also found the ability to do damage while taking also fun.

If my build is min/max, who cares? I have fun with it, GG has fun with his Protection build. I'm simply stating that the Arms/Fury build is the most efficient method of tanking; if he wants to be unkillable through Protection talents, he's more than welcome to, because that's a lot of fun.

[Treesh]

Like I said, I found Protection to be fun, but I also found the ability to do damage while taking also fun.

If my build is min/max, who cares?  I have fun with it, GG has fun with his Protection build.  I'm simply stating that the Arms/Fury build is the most efficient method of tanking; if he wants to be unkillable through Protection talents, he's more than welcome to, because that's a lot of fun.
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I'm glad you have fun with it and I'm glad that the Arms/Fury build fits your playstyle the best. If a build doesn't fit your playstyle though, it may not be the most efficient for you. And from what I've seen, there's still a lot of discussion about what is the most efficient method of tanking for warriors so you just stating that it's most efficient doesn't make it so. ;) Especially with the differences between PvP and PvE.

[Artega]

Especially with the differences between PvP and PvE.
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And that's the core issue with this. Protection isn't worth CRAP in PvP (once you use Concussion Blow, you're pretty much out of tricks), and so the people on Bloodscalp (and other PvP servers) have adapted to a much more offensive tanking style. I definitely have fun playing the ubertank, but when you get thrashed by a rogue six levels below you, you realize you just can't play that way on a PvP server and expect to have fun.

[Mavfin]

And that's the core issue with this.  Protection isn't worth CRAP in PvP (once you use Concussion Blow, you're pretty much out of tricks), and so the people on Bloodscalp (and other PvP servers) have adapted to a much more offensive tanking style.  I definitely have fun playing the ubertank, but when you get thrashed by a rogue six levels below you, you realize you just can't play that way on a PvP server and expect to have fun.
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And that's why, at this moment, I *like* the PvE servers, as no one can *force* me into PvP on a regular basis, leaving me to explore and quest and craft in peace. I've found a nice young lady newb mage to match with my newb warrior on a pickup basis. I run defensive stance, pull aggro for her, and she does more damage than me, unless I get a good crit in. But it works for the two of us. All we really need is a good low-level healer. I'm on U**** (can't remember name, it starts with U).

As far as pulling, I do some, she does some. I have a crossbow, so I can pull at range as easily as she can. Usually, she'll stand off behind me, I'll shoot it, and then back up away from the pack/mob village/whatever a bit for space, and then whack it good so her damage doesn't pull it. If she gets aggro, that's what taunt/sunder is for. Rudimentary tactics, yes, but, our combined levels are way less than what most talk about in here.

(Note: I'm only level 11, she's level 10, and we're working out our tactics as we go, some of it on our own, some of it from here)

I'm no min/max powerleveler, but that's not to say I don't like people who do that. It's their style. I have my style. I couldn't do without the ubertwinkers who give lotsa gold to their low-level chars. I like to sell leather goods for ridiculous sums to them. Keeps my lvl 11 warrior in gold, not silver.

Anyway, there's lotsa room for play styles, and, Artega, you (and others) have fallen into the trap of "if it's not the best/most efficient way of building, it's not worth doing". Some of us play different, maybe less efficient playstyles just for the hell of it. Just keep that in mind when you run down someone else's way of playing WoW because it's not the most efficient or 'best' build in your eyes.

Edit: And keep it civil in here, or take it to email. Right, Mongo?

[Raziel]

It's late but I feel compelled to reply from my somewhat limited perspective of a level 30 warrior.

I did a ton of research before rolling this char and have a good amount of experience at aggro management having played a 60 hunter and experienced BRD. BRS/Strath/Scholo are still mostly a mystery to me, I ventured into Scholo and let's just say it was bad and leave it at that.

My warrior is somewhat protection specced. The plan I am entertaining right now is going for Improved Revenge, Tactical Mastery and Enrage. I hope that it will give me a decent amount of damage (from enrage) while taking a defensive footing and using stuns from Revenge. I may spec to Concussive Blow as well.

I have not yet got Berserker stance or a reasonable level of Tactical Mastery, but I have been in many situations where somebody other than me pulls and I have to get aggro. How I usually do it is this:

1. If in battle stance, Charge. Hope the stun isn't resisted. Drop Sunder asap to burn rage and get aggro and then switch to Defensive stance. Taunt if it doesn't focus on you. Bloodrage if taunt is resisted. Sunder asap. Demo shout as needed.

2. Bloodrage, intercept the approaching mob on foot. Hit it, taunt it if it doesn't focus on you, sunder asap. If more than one, demoralizing shout.

From then on I work rage to shield block and then revenge everything, with a fair few sunders along the way. Taunt is something I use sparingly either to recapture a lost mob or to ensure it keeps hitting me after I fire shield block (so Revenge can light up). It's been said before, but i'll mention it again: you can revenge something other than what you just blocked. I often spread my revenges around.

You need a good group that understands you must "stick" the mob onto you before they go crazy. That means at least one sunder. A taunt is not good enough.

The key to me is bloodrage. I have improved bloodrage and use bloodrage constantly. Starting a fight in defensive stance with zero rage means you rely on taunt which is a death sentence. Why? Because then you must work up 15 rage before the two second taunt expires: 10 for shield block and 5 for revenge, or 15 for sunder... AND the mob must still want to hit you once more after you activate shield block. Usually there's not enough time and it turns away right after you shield block. Taunting at the start of the fight cripples you for when you really need it. I prefer to sacrifice a bit of life, bloodrage, and sunder it instead, and save my taunt for the pull or to lock a target onto me for that critical move that is dependant on victim action.

I find that I have a lot more problems holding rage in battle stance. I need to sunder constantly or do a ton of damage. Revenge seems to cause way more hate. If a mob is pulled off you in battle, there's basically nothing you can do since sunder doesn't seem to get them back very easily.

That being said I *am* having success in battle stance with a polearm. It's fast enough that I don't fall asleep, yet damaging enough that I get good rage with it. If you kill things faster, you take less damage. But I still end battles more hurt (in a team situation) in battle stance with the polearm.

Last but not least, I believe those extra hitpoints you save by not bloodraging are worthless if you aren't tanking. So, I bloodrage. Give it a go.

Spangles, join The Basin on Stormrage. There's only 10 million of us :D

[Goes back and reads thread.]

Well isn't that funny. I do exactly what gnollguy does.

Oh and as for VC. You're doing it wrong. Kill the first wave of adds, attract but ignore the second. Demoralizing shout gets them on the warrior, and spreading a bit of sunder around keeps them there while vancleef dies.

I did it with War Rogue Priest Mage Pal. Pal (18) handled anything that went for the casters. Mage sheeped one of the first and one of the second waves. We basically just left the spare second add alone to hit me. I locked VC in at the start while rogue/pala killed the first two adds one at a time. Then the rogue opened up with repeated stabs on VC, while the pala dropped back to defend the cloth and backup-heal. Easy, once you get it down.

Do I do a ton of damage in defensive mode? No, I don't. Isn't it convenient that all the good abilities have a really low rage cost!

Nothing beats sequential revenge-stuns on two opponents, then cleaving them both. Well, not until I get whirlwind.

Make no mistake, once I get Whirlwind and Berserker rage, I will be using them.

[Concillian]

The plan I am entertaining right now is going for Improved Revenge, Tactical Mastery and Enrage.  I hope that it will give me a decent amount of damage (from enrage) while taking a defensive footing and using stuns from Revenge.  [right][snapback]66872[/snapback][/right]

I just did a writeup on Sunder armor on another forum, and thought it would be appropriate here. If you look at the damage increase of 5 Improved Sunders, even on a heavily armored target, your damage increase is LARGER than the difference between a 1H and 2H weapon. So Sunder is not just a threat tool, but a way of adding signficant amounts of damage for a protection specced warrior.

-----------

I think sunder armor is an often overlooked skill. I also think Improved Sunder is an often overlooked talent that helps more than you might think. Armor reducing skills/talents are the only skills that I know of that have accelerating returns. Just to demonstrate that fact, I'm going to go through a few examples of lvl 60 warrior vs. lvl 60 something else based on the forumula at Thottbot that was made into a tool at this site:

http://www.merciless-gilde.com/inde...ow=tools&tool=1

1st, look at a lvl 60 whatever with 5000 armor and how it affects damage reduction:

Code:

armor    sunders   dam. red.   with IS
5000      0      47.62%      47.62%
4550      1      45.27%      44.53%
4100      2      42.71%      41.05%
3650      3      39.89%      37.11%
3200      4      36.78%      32.60%
2750      5      33.33%      27.39%
---------------------------------------
Total DR gain    14.29%      20.23%

So you get signifiacnt defense reduction and it looks okay... I mean with 5 stacked, you have changed damage reduced by 14.29%, and that means 14.29% more damage right?

NO. It means more than that. Say you do exactly 100 damage per hit (low for level 60 I know, but just for example's sake) Now that gets reduced by this percentage to less damage. Here is what you would be doing with each hit, and how much actual % gain you get in each case:

Code:

sunders  dam   dam (IS)  benefit  benefit with IS  % increase of IS
   0    52.38   52.38      
   1    54.73   55.47     4.49%       5.90%          31.5%
   2    57.29   58.95     4.68%       6.27%          34.1%
   3    60.11   62.89     4.92%       6.68%          35.8%
   4    63.22   67.40     5.17%       7.17%          38.6%
   5    66.67   72.61     5.46%       7.73%          41.6%
--------------------------------------------------------------  
Total                    24.72%      33.76%         36.6%

This one may be tougher to follow, but the benefit column indicates how much extra damage each sunder gives.
Also, IS = Improved Sunder and assumes 3/3 points.

A full 5 sunders gives 25% more damage in this case than with no sunders. If you have imporved sunder you are doing almost 34% more damage. That's like doing as much damage with a 1H weapon as a 2H weapon.

You can see why I said Sunder and improved sunder have accelerating returns. The benefit of 3/3 in IS vs. 0/3 goes from 31.5% extra damage on the first sunder up to over 40% on the last.

This is a case where fighting a level 60 with 5000 armor. What about a level 60 rogue. Looking at the profiles on Thottbot, at level 60 it seems like a decent rogue has a little over 1000 armor. Say it's one who has pretty good stuff at 1200 armor.

Code:

armor    sunders  dam. red.   with IS      
1200     0       17.91%     17.91%      
 750     1       12.00%     10.06%      
 300     2        5.17%      0.54%      
-150     3       -2.80%    -11.22%      
-600     4      -12.24%    -26.15%      
-1050    5      -23.60%    -45.70%
------------------------------------      
Total DR gain    41.51%     63.61%

and a total damage increase of:

Code:

sunders   dam    dam (IS)   benefit  with IS  IS %increase
   0     82.09    82.09      
   1     88.00    89.94      7.20%      9.56%     32.8%
   2     94.83    99.46      7.76%     10.58%     36.4%
   3    102.80   111.22      8.40%     11.82%     40.7%
   4    112.24   126.15      9.18%     13.42%     46.2%
   5    123.60   145.70     10.12%     15.50%     53.1%
----------------------------------------------------
Total                       42.67%     60.89%     42.7%

Not that you will necessarily get a chance to stck 5 sunders on a rogue, but with Improved Sunder, each sunder increases your damage done by about 10%! So against foes with low armor, sunder is even more effective and the benefit of improved IS is also magnified.

I initially wanted to do this analysis to see if putting points in Improved IS is worth it on a protection spec warrior if I had to take the points out of 1H weapon spec. In the case of a high defense enemy it takes 4 stacked sunders to offset the benefit of +6% damage with 3 points in 1H spec. In this case it's almost certainly not worth it.

However in the case of the low defense enemy, it only takes 2 sunders before IS is better than 1H weapon spec.

Seeing the total benefit, I'm considering taking points from elsewhere in the build to add to IS. At the very least the analysis shows how much benefit you can get later in a fight by stacking on the sunders early in the fight. The benefit was much larger than I would have expected on initial glance.

Edit: Clearly this forum doesn't use 'preformatted text' in the same way, the tables were not very readable just copy and pasted, I needed to edit for clarity.

[Artega]

Interesting. In PvE, I'm always using Sunder, since it's my preferred dump for spare Rage. In PvP, though, I tend to use Piercing Howl when I have spare Rage. Otherwise, Whirlwind and Demoralizing Shout take up most of my Rage.

Thanks for the analysis Concillian.

[Concillian]

Interesting.  In PvE, I'm always using Sunder, since it's my preferred dump for spare Rage.  In PvP, though, I tend to use Piercing Howl when I have spare Rage.  Otherwise, Whirlwind and Demoralizing Shout take up most of my Rage.

Thanks for the analysis Concillian.
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One of the people in the other forums I posted noted that he recently switched to a strategy of Charge, Sunder, Sunder before anything else (with imp. Charge he could do this with just one swing) He noted that paladins were much easier. I'm not one to PvP much, so I can't say for sure.

In principle though, Sunder early should help a LOT, as not only does it make your rage more efficeint in that the same rage causes more damage, but it makes it easier to generate rage because your normal hits do more damage than they otherwise would.

The fact that it is an instant is also important, as you don't want to waste rage on a skill that will also eat your next opportunity to generate it. That is perhaps what frustrates me so much about playing a warrior. Without Mortal Strike there are very few effective ways of using rage. The rage cost of something like Heroic strike isn't really 15 rage, it's more like 25 rage, because you don't generate rage on a strike you normally would. You're spending ~25 rage on doing what is really a pretty petty amount of damage.

Given all that, I think Sunder is a surprisingly good way to spend rage. Whirlwind is definitely good too, but rage cost is high, and you have to be in berserker, so you're taking more damage. Max rank demo lowers damage done to you by at least 10 DPS for 30 seconds, so that's not bad either, buys you an extra hit or so.

[Ynir]

Spangles started this thread about defensive stance and asked how to implement it. She took the advice of those who responded and respecified her talents from fury to protection accordingly.

Protection
shield specialization 5
improved shield block 2
improved bloodrage 2
last stand 1
improved revenge 3
defiance 5
improved sunder armor 3
improved taunt 2
improved shield block 2
concussive blow 1
one-handed weapon spec 5
shield discipline 1

Fury
cruelty 5
improved demoralizing shout 5
unbridled wrath 1
piercing howl 1
improved battle shout 2

Note that most of the points outside protection are for shouts, which she considers most important. The new improved thunderclap in the next patch looks pretty good tho, so she will respec for that when the time comes. Comments about this list will be most welcome.

She uses CTMod and has lots of places to put things. But mostly she uses her protection action bar:

1 attack (set to auto)
2 sunder armor / 15 rage
3 revenge / 5
4 concussion blow / 15
5 disarm / 20
6 demoralizing shout / 10
7 battle shout / 20
8 taunt
9 piercing howl / 10
10 shield discipline / 15
- bloodrage
= shield bash / 10

She was 50+ when she switched and capped shortly thereafter. She doesn't solo or quest anymore, but this is how it went before she and her buddies started raiding.

Solo
Death of a Thousand Cuts: She can reliably take out a single mob at her level without potions, which she couldn't do before respec. One add is not a problem: take a potion, but retreat from two or more, since fearing is not an option. Doing one mob is slow attrition using tiny scraps of rage. Since she has the attention of her opponent she doesn't taunt: just sunder, sunder, sunder, with revenge, concussion, and disarm when possible, keep on shouting. Concussion is not as useful as it should be since she doesn't usually have rage to spend while the mob recovers. Shield bash the casters, and anyone else, with the thorium spike. No rage for shield discipline, unfortunately. Switch to berserker when the mob gets to 20% life, hit the 1h/shield <> polearm switch macro that also casts berserker rage and bloodrage, attack, attack, attack to generate more rage, then execute. Wait for 30% to 50% life regain, then repeat.

Two problems here. She hasn't figured out how to switch stances with a hotkey, and clicking the classbar takes a lot of time and reflex. Also, the weapon switch has to be carefully timed. If the switch occurs exactly when a mob hits, one of the switched-out weapons will be lost in another sack. A more reliable macro can be written for Cosmos, but she won't use anything bulkier than CTMod.

Questing with Friends
Teddy Bear's Picnic: Spangles did thirty levels with Flygirl the mage and Magitar the druid. We cut through the game like hot knives through butter. Spangles pulled and tanked, Magitar healed, and Flygirl provided heavy DPS. Shouts, taunt, disarm and shield bash were crucial. Fights were over quickly, one way or the other, so switching out to execute wasn't necessary. One problem was keeping the mobs off the healer. Ideally, Spangles could switch to arms, thunderclap to regain attention, switch back to defense and resume sundering and taunting. Again, too difficult to switch by clicking, so many times the healer had to tank for herself, and Spangles had to use potions to stay alive. Another problem was the mage pulling, gathering attention that Spangles should have held. Best thing to do with a mage that pulls is just to let her die. Another mistake was Spangles pulling while the casters were drinking, being impatient with sitting around. Defense spec in small groups helped mostly by taking the load off the healer and holding aggro better. Killing, per se, was not the issue. Loss of damage output wasn't important with all this DPS incoming from behind.

Instance Groups
Spite & Malice: Everything changed when the focus was on loot. Members of pickup groups often had their own agenda, so the concept of a main tank didn't exist. Spangles settled into a position midway between the pullers and the casters, trying to intercept incoming mobs. Three issues here: timing rage generation to sunder and disarm mobs who were not focused on her, since she didn't pull them. Again, a hotkey stance switch would help to issue thunderclap in a timely fashion, taunt will only pull one. Casters who didn't wait for the tank to intercept were another problem, there was no hope of holding even one mob that was cast on prematurely, which forced retreat and retargeting. Pickup groups didn't always include a priest, so Spangles was often eying the health bar and bandaging instead of concentrating on targeting and aggro management.

Raids
Easy Street: Spangles has been into Strat about ten times. She usually is not main tank since she doesn't know the story lines, so her job is interception. Playing with eight people in back is straightforward. Dying is not an issue unless the whole group wipes, since the healing is often very good. Pulling, when she is asked to, is easier since it always means retreating to the group's line of sight instead of slugging it out in front. Mobs that get past her will be taken care of, so she doesn't shuttle back and forth. With all this DPS flying round she can concentrate on shouting and taunting and carefully timed shield bashing. She often has time to switch stances and (try to) execute. The hardest part is target selection in crowds of mobs amidst aoe and spell graphics.

PvP
Advanced Target Dummy: No future in the battlegrounds for Spangles. She has never defeated a paladin, much less a rogue or a mage. Will she have to respec to fury to survive? If there is a defense spec pvp assasin out there Spangles would like to hear about it.

[Boutros]

You can open your spellbook and drag the icons for the various stances onto one of your your toolbars. Then by pressing the associated hotkey you can change stances, no macro required.

For automated weapon switching I recommend Weapon Quick Swap and Stance Sets from http://capnbry.net/wow/. I know you may be reticent to use other addons but stancesets is extremely easy to use, requires no writing of macros, and is not at all bloated. After loading the addons you simply type /stancesets and use the GUI to setup your weapon loadout. Then in the key bindings menu you will find a binding for weapon swapping, which will switch your weapons between your various sets based on the stance you are in. It won't matter at all where in your bags your weapons are, just don't sell them accidentally. :)

As far as PvP goes, you may be destined for hard times with your current build. The most important PvP talent is Tactical Mastery. Some of the other important PvP talents are Improved Hamstring, Mortal Strike, Improved Overpower, Enrage, and Improved Intercept. You don't have any of these. Thus your damage dealing is weakened, you don't keep rage when you change stances, you don't have the MS debuff, Your Hamstring is less effective, and you don't have Improved Overpower (very important for beating Rogues).

There are some things a Protection warrior benefits from in PvP. You have Concussion Blow, which is a nice stun, and you can take physical damage somewhat better than an Arms or Fury warrior. But the lack of tactical mastery and improved overpower hurts a whole lot. The addition of those two talents would help your PvP situation greatly. And their only prerequisite, deflection, is fantastic for a protection oriented build anyway.