Assassin Skills Discussion

[Occhidiangela]

There has been considerable discussion, both before 1.10 and after, that the Assassin Trap "Wake of Inferno" had a bunch of "features" that lessened its effectiveness.

Back in 1.08, 1.09 days, I found Wake of Inferno to be perfectly viable Hell Skill for a Trapper. Patience was it's only requirement, and a bit of Mind Blast and a tank to keep the targets "still" while you cooked them.

However, Inferno, Balrog Inferno, and Wake of Inferno have always seemed to have some problems with "it's not doing any damage."

The reason for this phenomenon seems elusive.

Who has tested Wake of Inferno, beyond some of the Next Delay discussions we had here during "1.10 Beta" and found out what and where the holes are in what should be a major Damage Dealer? My maxed out HC East Trapper disappeared months ago, expired, or I'd test a bit with her. I am currently playing with other skills.

Occhi

[Yogi_Baar]

This AB post might answer some questions about Wake of Inferno.

[Occhidiangela]

This AB post might answer some questions about Wake of Inferno.
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Thank you, very helpful.

Now, for the next silly question.

Has it been confirmed that there is no "Next Delay" problem with Blade Fury/WoI in combination?

My last check of the Maggot Lair came up empty.

Occhi

PS: I am doing some research to make sure my Draft 1.0 of the Hardcore Trapper Guide has good info in it.

[adeyke]

Thank you, very helpful.

Now, for the next silly question. 

Has it been confirmed that there is no "Next Delay" problem with Blade Fury/WoI in combination?

My last check of the Maggot Lair came up empty.

Occhi

PS:  I am doing some research to make sure my Draft 1.0 of the Hardcore Trapper Guide has good info in it.
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Neither of those skills has a missile with a NextDelay.

[bigeyedbug]

Has it been confirmed that there is no "Next Delay" problem with Blade Fury/WoI in combination?...

I am doing some research to make sure my Draft 1.0 of the Hardcore Trapper Guide has good info in it.

If you haven't already noted it, it might be worth including some mention of how WoF's 4 frame NextDelay limits its usefulness, most especially by curtailing the benefit of stacking multiple WoF traps.

(And if its literally a "TRAPper guide", some discussion of Blade Sentinal's NextDelay--already explained in detail by Crystalion in the famous thread--would probably be appropriate.)

[Occhidiangela]

If you haven't already noted it, it might be worth including some mention of how WoF's 4 frame NextDelay limits its usefulness, most especially by curtailing the benefit of stacking multiple WoF traps.

Link?

(And if its literally a "TRAPper guide", some discussion of Blade Sentinal's NextDelay--already explained in detail by Crystalion in the famous thread--would probably be appropriate.)
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Yes, that is on the list of things to paraphrase into a synopsis. :D

For the HC Trapper, Blade Sentinal is being treated as "a pre req, fun to mess with in Normal if you have some elemental/poison damage, but overcome immediately by Blade Fury." Its technical shortcomings are part of the reason it is poo poohed in the Guide, though I have had a lot of fun with it in Nutty Variant Games. :lol:

Occhi

[Crystalion]

For the HC Trapper, Blade Sentinal is being treated as "a pre req, fun to mess with in Normal if you have some elemental/poison damage, but overcome immediately by Blade Fury."  Its technical shortcomings are part of the reason it is poo poohed in the Guide, though I have had a lot of fun with it in Nutty Variant Games.  :lol:

Blade Sentinel really is an uber-skill from a twink perspective. Because NextDelay doesn't have any effect until it successfully hits something it appears to be trying to hit repeatedly (no LastCollide set on this missile)--in other words it seems to have a really good chance to hit and it will hit whole bunches of things, potentially in a short period of time.

As such it is really good vs. massed concentrations of monsters (and I've always liked throwing them through doorways blocked by monster packs).

If emeralds (in weapon) or Envy Jewels have granted your lowbie a lot of poison (or if you've been enchanted) then BS is a great way for a single skill point and no mana to speak of to own the early game. A one second NextDelay or the slow hitting cycle of BS moving around is really of no concern when applying 2+ seconds of poison. At low clvls the amount of damage available by poison is very good relative to monster HPs (and often better than you can easily do with physical or other elements).

The icing on the cake, of course, is that Blade Fury is a one point wonder, even in the endgame, and Blade Sentinel is a prereq. Therefore all this early char level "goodness" I'm talking about is, in some real sense, "free".

As far as endgame use... if you're not a Venom user then it is worth a huge amount of damage vs. hell regen, esp. in high player count games, to have something out there doing PMH on packs of monsters without requiring much effort on your part.

As a trapper you're putting out damage (over quite some time per monster) that does not PMH and you are probably way too busy to try to touch very many things with PMH via Blade Fury. A BS is probably going to last ~6 seconds (as a trapper I assume you have at least +5 trap skills) and with 5 second duration poison charms you might expect to get up to 10 seconds worth of PMH on a pack with just one BS cast. That is a huge amount of "damage" (aka stopped regen).

So I think "fun to mess with" doesn't quite do it justice, eh?

OTOH, the other NextDelay tainted trapper skill, Shockweb, I feel is totally hopeless and pathetic. I think a good start for a modder would be to drop its NextDelay down to 5 (or up its damage five fold).

[bigeyedbug]

Link?

Sorry, no, and no precise idea of how much NextDelay screws with WoF. I think it is safe to say that unlike the other sentries, stacking multiple WoFs has steeply diminishing returns in PvM.

OTOH, the other NextDelay tainted trapper skill, Shockweb, I feel is totally hopeless and pathetic.

Shockweb is still quite handy as a backup skill in limited circumstances for many lightning trappers. Basically when Fire Blast is not a great option, because of resistances or skill investment; when playing solo, or partied with non NextDelay skill users; and when mana is not an issue (Not that SWeb is that expensive anyway.) it can be nice to cast while one's Sentries are fireing. Properly synergized, this can be more than a token bit of damage, even taking into account NextDelay. (I've played with Shockweb on its own in a 1 player Hell game and was able to slowly kill monsters as advanced as act 3, so this isn't purely abstract reasoning on my part.)

One kind of neat thing about it is that the fields can get very large when it and Fire Blast are maxed. Even with the timer on Shockweb, it's possible to cover most of the screen in sparklies. Not the most useful thing in the world--and partied with, say, a Strafazon it'd be downright pathological--but cool nonetheless. B)

[Occhidiangela]

Blade Sentinel really is an uber-skill from a twink perspective. Because NextDelay doesn't have any effect until it successfully hits something it appears to be trying to hit repeatedly (no LastCollide set on this missile)--in other words it seems to have a really good chance to hit and it will hit whole bunches of things, potentially in a short period of time.

As such it is really good vs. massed concentrations of monsters (and I've always liked throwing them through doorways blocked by monster packs).

If emeralds (in weapon) or Envy Jewels have granted your lowbie a lot of poison (or if you've been enchanted) then BS is a great way for a single skill point and no mana to speak of to own the early game. A one second NextDelay or the slow hitting cycle of BS moving around is really of no concern when applying 2+ seconds of poison. At low clvls the amount of damage available by poison is very good relative to monster HPs (and often better than you can easily do with physical or other elements).

The icing on the cake, of course, is that Blade Fury is a one point wonder, even in the endgame, and Blade Sentinel is a prereq.  Therefore all this early char level "goodness" I'm talking about is, in some real sense, "free".

As far as endgame use... if you're not a Venom user then it is worth a huge amount of damage vs. hell regen, esp. in high player count games, to have something out there doing PMH on packs of monsters without requiring much effort on your part.

As a trapper you're putting out damage (over quite some time per monster) that does not PMH and you are probably way too busy to try to touch very many things with PMH via Blade Fury. A BS is probably going to last ~6 seconds (as a trapper I assume you have at least +5 trap skills) and with 5 second duration poison charms you might expect to get up to 10 seconds worth of PMH on a pack with just one BS cast. That is a huge amount of "damage" (aka stopped regen).

So I think "fun to mess with" doesn't quite do it justice, eh?

OTOH, the other NextDelay tainted trapper skill, Shockweb, I feel is totally hopeless and pathetic. I think a good start for a modder would be to drop its NextDelay down to 5 (or up its damage five fold).
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Two separate issues.

1. "If enchanted" assumes a particular party or item granting the skill. The guide I am working on presumes nothing, though it will cover a few items about team play.

2. I like the door tactic, will include it in the guide.

If one stumbles across the odd rare, particularly in Hell diff, with insane elemental affixes, (found a jav the other day with 1-400+ lightning, something like 40-140 fire, nd 80 poison over 4 IIRC) then it could be useful for a long duration sentinal to whittle down a pack who is blocking your progress.

Mind Blast can works just as well to clear a doorway.

I have also found that in the AS, saving up a rare javelin or even a pilum (low base damage) with ample elemental mods on it is one way for your Act II merc to survive the dreaded IM from OK's and save a bit of cash. Of course, if you have a charges of Lower Resist wand handy, you may spend the cash in using it . . . life is trade offs, eh?

Javs and Pilums are equippable on Act II Mercs. Their fast attack speed is particularly nice, then the elemental mods kick in.

Occhi

[Crystalion]

If one stumbles across the odd rare, particularly in Hell diff, with insane elemental affixes, (found a jav the other day with 1-400+ lightning, something like 40-140 fire, nd 80 poison over 4 IIRC)  then it could be useful for a long duration sentinal to whittle down a pack who is blocking your progress.

As soon as act 3 normal and clvl 19 you can shop wands with as much as 25-60 Fire or 1-120 lightning. They are, of course, 1 handed (i.e. no BS/BF 2h penalty).

I believe this means an Assassin with the requisite 1 pt. in Blade Sentinel and Blade Fury might profitably keep an eye wands for weapon switch (esp. since everything I'm about to list is a prefix, so you could get really lucky and have a useful suffix on the wand as well, like "of piercing" or charges of a good necro CC skill).

The key to the alvl (early) of decent elemental damage on wands is that (norm/exc but not elite) they have magic_level = 1. So the alvl you get is clvl+6 (clvl + 5 for shop ilvl, + 1 more for magic_level). However, in normal (but not nm/hell) you need to be aware of the shop ilvl caps:

Act 1 : 12
Act 2 : 20
Act 3 : 28
Act 4 : 36
Act 5 : 45

so clvl 19+ in act 3+:
Fiery up to 25-60 fire; clvl 18 req., alvl 25
Static up to 1-120 lightning; clvl 18 req., alvl 25

and clvl 28+ in act 4+:
Smoldering up to 50-90 fire; clvl 25 req., alvl 34
Glowing up to 1-180 lightning; clvl 25 req., alvl 34

and clvl 40+ in act 5+:
Smoking up to 80-130 fire; clvl 36 req., alvl 46 (yes yes, ilvl 45 cap no prob)
Buzzing up to 1-260 lightning; clvl 36 req., alvl 46 (ditto)

There are also poison and cold damage affixes (I omit them simply because I'm less impressed with them and don't wish to take the time to type 'em up).

Naturally if you already have good fire or lightning damage from traps then these with BS/BF aren't going to be very relevant. I have, however, played non-twink melee or BF sins in the past, and found knowing when to shop wands to be helpful.

[Occhidiangela]

As soon as act 3 normal and clvl 19 you can shop wands with as much as 25-60 Fire or 1-120 lightning. They are, of course, 1 handed (i.e. no BS/BF 2h penalty).

*snip* You could get really lucky and have a useful suffix on the wand as well, like "of piercing" or charges of a good necro CC skill).

The key to the alvl (early) of decent elemental damage on wands is that (norm/exc but not elite) they have magic_level = 1.  So the alvl you get is clvl+6 (clvl + 5 for shop ilvl, + 1 more for magic_level).  However, in normal (but not nm/hell) you need to be aware of the shop ilvl caps:

Act 1 : 12
Act 2 : 20
Act 3 : 28
Act 4 : 36
Act 5 : 45

so clvl 19+ in act 3+:
Fiery up to 25-60 fire; clvl 18 req., alvl 25
Static up to 1-120 lightning; clvl 18 req., alvl 25

clvl 28+ in act 4+:
Smoldering up to 50-90 fire; clvl 25 req., alvl 34
Glowing up to 1-180 lightning; clvl 25 req., alvl 34

clvl 40+ in act 5+:
Smoking up to 80-130 fire; clvl 36 req., alvl 46 (yes yes, ilvl 45 cap no prob)
Buzzing up to 1-260 lightning; clvl 36 req., alvl 46 (ditto)

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I think I understand that if my CLVL gets too high, I'm less likely to see these mods on the wands. Funny thing, though, NM Bremm dropped me a wand with 275 poison damage over 6 sec Sunday morning. That will be a handy Hell BF tool to slow down regen rates during many a boss fight. :)

I decided to hold off on the guide since I have not completed a HC Hell Assassin under the synergy system as yet, no twink. Want to make sure I walk the walk before I talk the talk. My SC trapper went for higher Shadow Warrior and has Fire Blast damage below 1000. This makes for slow defeat of lightning immunes. I find rather funny the fact that she has found 4 sets of Sparkling Mail, one of which she still wears in NM act IV, and got the "Luck of the Irish" drop: Clegs Gloves. Weird luck on drops is part of the game.

I don't know if there is anything to this, but it seemed to me that normal weapons (not exceptional and not unique) tend to have the highest mods when I would shop Mala other merchants in Hell Diff. However, the best always seemed to be the rare combos, with three or four elemental mods. Javelins are usable by any class without any adds to stats, which makes for nice Variant tools. Our RBD Elemental Thrower Variant team benifited from such mods last year.

I probably need to review Gambling details if I want to provide advice on gambling for high elemental javelin mods.

Occhi

[Crystalion]

I don't know if there is anything to this, but it seemed to me that normal weapons (not exceptional and not unique) tend to have the highest mods when I would shop Mala other merchants in Hell Diff.  However, the best always seemed to be the rare combos, with three or four elemental mods.
...I probably need to review Gambling details if I want to provide advice on gambling for high elemental javelin mods.

For non-weenie base items with magic_level = 0 (i.e. most everything) there is commonly a significant downward tug on alvl by qlvl. If the ilvl is high enough, or the desired alvl low enough, then this doesn't matter. However, as you might guess, it commonly does matter. In short, the way "it seemed" to you is most likely true.

As a practical matter, therefore, it is not uncommon for characters of modest clvl to "want" to gamble only the weenie items (low qlvl therefore higher alvl) looking for those nice combo rares you refer to. The kicker, as was discussed in threads during beta, is that in v1.10 you can upgrade them to elite. As the elite forms of weapons and armor tend to all be pretty equivalent (roughly speaking and with various glaring exceptions, such as sin boot damage) this means that sometimes even a character of fairly high clvl might still want to gamble weenier base items.

Unfortunately the details of all this typically require some research with an affix calculator, to gauge the sweetspot for what you're after. This isn't particularly convenient advice to dispense in a guide, eh? :blink:

[Occhidiangela]

Unfortunately the details of all this typically require some research with an affix calculator, to gauge the sweetspot for what you're after. This isn't particularly convenient advice to dispense in a guide, eh?  :blink:
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No, it is not. If I delve into item madness, I think the guide will lose value. The idea is to be able to take an Assassin from start to finish without overt concerns with items. Item madness may be an appendix just to allow for a little indulgence, but the core of the guide is tactics, skills, and

How Not To Die In Hardcore.

Occhi

[Yogi_Baar]

Naturally if you already have good fire or lightning damage from traps then these with BS/BF aren't going to be very relevant. I have, however, played non-twink melee or BF sins in the past, and found knowing when to shop wands to be helpful.
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A question: if my blade assassin has a buzzing wand equipped, lets a Blade Sentinel fly, and then switches to another weapon, will the flying Sentinel carry the damage of the weapon at cast time or the currently equipped weapon?

If it "remembers" what it spawned with it could be quite nice I suppose...

[Crystalion]

A question: if my blade assassin has a buzzing wand equipped, lets a Blade Sentinel fly, and then switches to another weapon, will the flying Sentinel carry the damage of the weapon at cast time or the currently equipped weapon?

Blade Sentinel: it's a skill, no!--it's a minion, no!--it's a missle!, no!--it's all three!

In short, yes, afaik, iirc, BSent damage is set at time of casting. However, given various posts I've read, I suspect the AR issue is more complex (but that wasn't your question).

OTOH, afaik Blade Shield takes its damage from your current gear when it pulses (this is an interesting technical point and I'm not at all sure about it--easy to test though).

[Occhidiangela]

I am currently playing with other skills.

Occhi
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Never mind. May as well shut this thread.

My HC Trapper died in Durance 3 Hell to Bremm, and I am still not sure of how I went from full ball to red screen. Very strange. Me, my merc, Bremm, and one Ghoul Lord minion on screen one moment, Bremm hits me, I hit a purple, red screen the next. No real exotic mods to Bremm: no conviciton, no extra strong, no extra fast. cold and ltg enchanted. As far as I can tell, he was alive when I died, so it was not a cold blast death thing.

If one can't work though so simple a problem as getting past Hell Mephisto without dying, which I have done dozens of times before patch 1.10, there is no point in writing a guide for HC. Ya gotta walk the walk before you talk the talk.

Occhi

[Yogi_Baar]

cold and ltg enchanted.[right][snapback]69212[/snapback][/right]

Any other "elemental enchanted" in combination with lightning enchanted makes half of my brain cells yell at the other half to get the character out of there.

I've lost too many chars to these combinations already. I think it has something to do with invisible death explosions triggering on hit recovery for LE bosses, but I don't know the details. That could also just be for FE/LE bosses, however. I just know that whenever I see dual enchanted bosses my characters go into "Run, Forrest, Run!" mode.

I'm sorry for your loss (and ours). :(

[bigeyedbug]

No real exotic mods to Bremm: no conviciton, no extra strong, no extra fast.  cold and ltg enchanted.  As far as I can tell, he was alive when I died, so it was not a cold blast death thing.

If one can't work though so simple a problem as getting past Hell Mephisto without dying, which I have done dozens of times before patch 1.10, there is no point in writing a guide for HC.  Ya gotta walk the walk before you talk the talk.

Occhi
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I wouldn't be ashamed of that death, actually. It's been less commented on than the FE bug has, but CE and LE in combination have been observed many times to have bizarre, often fatal consequences, even without a death explosion.

Here's one interesting link, although there are a great deal of anecdotal reports that are more disturbing:

http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/in...ndpost&p=496952

As far as having to "walk the walk" goes, my personal opinion is that a fair amount of general expertise completing the game in HC, combined with a lot of experience with the specific build(s) in question in Hell, but not necessarily through Hell, is enough to have credibility in a HC guide. Unless one is willing to rush, "cheat" in SC or SP, or just has plenty of time to make repeated attempts at it, the random element and time constraints are too great to make attaining Guardianship a requirement, rather than just a useful qualification for writing a guide.

I'm probably biased though, as I've yet to get a Guardian of any class, and probably more to the point, I was really looking forward to reading your guide.

edit: /waves at Yogi ... My centesimal and your bicentesimal posts, don't ya know. :)

[Occhidiangela]

I wouldn't be ashamed of that death, actually.  It's been less commented on than the FE bug has, but CE and LE in combination have been observed many times to have bizarre, often fatal consequences, even without a death explosion.

Here's one interesting link, although there are a great deal of anecdotal reports that are more disturbing:

http://www.theamazonbasin.com/d2/forums/in...ndpost&p=496952

As far as having to "walk the walk" goes, my personal opinion is that a fair amount of general expertise completing the game in HC, combined with a lot of experience with the specific build(s) in question in Hell, but not necessarily through Hell, is enough to have credibility in a HC guide.  Unless one is willing to rush, "cheat" in SC or SP, or just has plenty of time to make repeated attempts at it, the random element and time constraints are too great to make attaining Guardianship a requirement, rather than just a useful qualification for writing a guide.

I'm probably biased though, as I've yet to get a Guardian of any class, and probably more to the point, I was really looking forward to reading your guide.

edit:  /waves at Yogi ... My centesimal and your bicentesimal posts, don't ya know. :)
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Thanks for the condolences, but it really ain't right to write a guide without credibility. Had any number of successes pre synergy, to include a trapper on East. The Immunities issue forces one to pick one's elemental skills with a bit of care, with an eye toward the end game. One still has to execute any plan. That includes knowing when to GTFO or, as I usually do, stand well clear from exotic bosses and let the merc take the abuse. That's what he is paid for. :D

Given that I am slowly losing the free time needed to do this all over again, I choose to simply close that book and put it back on the shelf. RL was in competition, and at this point simply wins the time budget battle.

So be it.

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

I'm sorry for your loss (and ours). :(
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Call me a rube, but I am at it again, HC, 1.10D, HC Trapper, done with NM, and the Guide is thus resurrected.

Comments on skills by any trappers appreciated as I restart this project.

I have chosen to go with Shadow Master, but I don't think I'll max her.
Might Merc
Maxed Death Sentry
Maxed Lgt Sentry,
Maxed Fire Blast
Will add points to other traps to boost Fire Blast a bit more.
Blade Fury to deal with LGT Immunes and apply either CB or Slows Target. (Blood Crafting or Clegs, which dropped in Act II.)

It was a tough decision to go with Master over Warrior. Warrior has a lot of advantages, if maxed, but I decided I would not Max my shadow, but rather put in enough points to keep here alive in Hell as a fighting Decoy.

My decision not to use a Defiance Merc may backfire on me, depends on how my gambling luck goes.

I have chosen to emphasize Cloak of Shadows tactics at the expense of Mind Blast, which so far has stood me in good stead.

Drops have been rather paltry to date.

Talk to you later.

Occhi