Assassin Skills Discussion

[Yogi_Baar]

5 frenzytaur
4 minion of destruction[right][snapback]106406[/snapback][/right]

This is scary.

[Occhidiangela]

Venom. There are differing approaches to using Venom in conjunction with Blade Fury. Application of poison damage is a bit tricky in 1.10. I think I understand how poison on weapons and other items, and poison from Venom, are combined.

Adeyke made the below observation a couple of years ago. I am trying to determine if anything has changed, mechanically, regarding Venom. I presume that Venom's "rate" is not combined with lesser rates, and Venom's total damage combined with other poison damage sources clips (sets) any other item's duration to 10 frames.

As I understand 1.10/1.11 Diablo II, and the game checks rates to choose the attack with the highest damage per frame rate when multiple poison sources are used.

Please correct my understanding if I goofed this up.

What I don't understand is: once the Venom is done with its 10 frames of damage, does the duration of other poison items reset? (does a 4 second duration charm, for example, take over and keep applying poison, or was its duration cut short in the first decision to go with Venom?)

The duration of poison items is irrelevant.  All that matters is the rate. However, because the rate of venom is so high, other poison sources really don't do much.
Level 20 venom would add 425-445 poison damage over .4 seconds.
While under the influence of venom:
A perfect emerald would add 5.8 damage over .4 seconds.
A Tal rune would add 6.0 damage over .4 seconds.
An Envy jewel would add 4.0 damage over .4 seconds.

A poison Rainbow Facet would add 7.3 damage over .4 seconds (and has +% skill damage and -% enemy resistance, both of which are much more significant).  The poison damage of these are all single-digit, compared to the three digits the venom itself adds.

A pestilent small charm of anthrax would add 15.0 poison damage over .4 seconds. This can be significant, if you have a lot of them. However, considering the rarity of such charms, you don't.

I need to make sure I describe this choice and its impact clearly and correctly in the guide.

Thanks.

Occhi

[bigeyedbug]

What I don't understand is: once the Venom is done with its 10 frames of damage, does the duration of other poison items reset? (does a 4 second duration charm, for example, take over and keep applying poison, or was its duration cut short in the first decision to go with Venom?)
[right][snapback]107194[/snapback][/right]

Venom truncates additional poison down to its 10 frame duration. Without reapplication, once those 10 frames are over, the poison state is over too, regardless of whether the the application had a little bit of Pemerald, Tal rune, et al. in it.

For subsequent or simultaneous applications, an equal or higher rate poison will always override a lower one. The game "forgets" the previous poison application, rate, and damage in that case.

For completeness' sake, I guess it's worth mentioning that poison applications always do their initial frame's worth of damage regardless of the poison state of the target. So let's say you've got 100 points of poison damage over 10 frames , and you're successfully re-applying it every 6 frames:

Frame....Damage
1..............10 Initial application
2..............10
3..............10
4..............10
5..............10
6..............10
7..............10 + 10 reapplication
8..............10
9..............10
10............10
11............10
12............10
13............10 + 10 reapplication

So at the end of frame 13, you've got 20 more points of poison damage than you'd expect from the simple "Equal or higher poison rates always override" rule. How much of or even whether that's important enough to explain in your guide is debateable.

[Occhidiangela]

Venom truncates additional poison down to its 10 frame duration.  Without reapplication, once those 10 frames are over, the poison state is over too, regardless of whether the the application had a little bit of Pemerald, Tal rune, et al. in it.
==-- Snip interesting detail, thanks.  :)

How much of or even whether that's important enough to explain in your guide is debateable.
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The key issue is use of poison to preclude monster regeneration, and the truncating feature of Venom answers the mail on that concern.

Occhi

[GriffonSpade]

So it's primary attack only, no real application as an anti-regen debuff. Because of this discussion, I must now make a blade fury assassin.

What all gives blade fury enhanced damage? Do str or dex give edam, or only auras and masteries?

[Occhidiangela]

So it's primary attack only, no real application as an anti-regen debuff. Because of this discussion, I must now make a blade fury assassin.

What all gives blade fury enhanced damage? Do str or dex give edam, or only auras and masteries?
[right][snapback]107297[/snapback][/right]

By weapon type, with whatever bonus damage is on the weapon, multiplied by .75. (For one handed weapons.) Add BF damage. Claw mastery halps on the BF physical damage, and to hit.

Two handed weapons, IIRC, do .375 damage

Earlier pages in this thread had a discussion of the handy affixes that get transmitted by BF:

Among others:

Crushing Blow
Open Wounds
PMH
Freezes Targer
Critical Strike
Blinds Target
Hit Causes Target To Flee

Occhi

[GriffonSpade]

By weapon type, with whatever bonus damage is on the weapon, multiplied by .75.  (For one handed weapons.)  Add BF damage.  Claw mastery halps on the BF physical damage, and to hit. 

Two handed weapons, IIRC, do .375 damage

Earlier pages in this thread had a discussion of the handy affixes that get transmitted by BF:

Among others:

Crushing Blow
Open Wounds
PMH
Freezes Targer
Critical Strike
Blinds Target
Hit Causes Target To Flee

Occhi
[right][snapback]107304[/snapback][/right]

Heh, I know that stuff, and already have a small list of gear I plan on using(Guillaume's face, archon plate Treachery, seraph rod Lawbringer, Trang-Oul's gloves, probably Moser's blessed circle) along with a few skills(mind blast, death sentry, cloak of shadows, shadow master; I may not invest into fade or venom other than a single point), and rely on treachery for anything more), but I need to know the affects of things such as +max/min damage, +% damage on armor, strength, dexterity, and confirmation of boosts from auras.

[adeyke]

Heh, I know that stuff, and already have a small list of gear I plan on using(Guillaume's face, archon plate Treachery, seraph rod Lawbringer, Trang-Oul's gloves, probably Moser's blessed circle) along with a few skills(mind blast, death sentry, cloak of shadows, shadow master; I may not invest into fade or venom other than a single point), and rely on treachery for anything more), but I need to know the affects of things such as +max/min damage, +% damage on armor, strength, dexterity, and confirmation of boosts from auras.
[right][snapback]107343[/snapback][/right]

Blade fury has the same damage as normal attack, multiplied by 3/4 (3/8 if it's a two-handed weapon), plus some trivial amount from the blade fury skill itself. Anything that affects normal attack damage affects blade fury. There's just one exception: +% skill damage. This affects mêlée attacks but not ranged ones such as blade fury.

[GriffonSpade]

Blade fury has the same damage as normal attack, multiplied by 3/4 (3/8 if it's a two-handed weapon), plus some trivial amount from the blade fury skill itself.  Anything that affects normal attack damage affects blade fury.  There's just one exception: +% skill damage.  This affects mêlée attacks but not ranged ones such as blade fury.
[right][snapback]107354[/snapback][/right]

...+% skill damage? you mean like claw mastery or like might?

[adeyke]

...+% skill damage? you mean like claw mastery or like might?
[right][snapback]107357[/snapback][/right]

Fire mastery, lightning mastery, Rainbow Facets, etc.

[GriffonSpade]

Fire mastery, lightning mastery, Rainbow Facets, etc.
[right][snapback]107367[/snapback][/right]

Ah ok. So does this apply to trang-oul's+venom when using blade fury as well?

[GriffonSpade]

Cloak of Shadows operates as a normal curse, it is canceled by amplify damage and able to cancel amplify damage.

Edit: That is, the cloud affect does, what all does the darkness itself do?

Edit2: Another annoying fact, that cloak cannot be recasted until the previous duration ends, making high level(long duration) cloak ineffective in mobile combat. I think this may be another 1 pointer like blade fury. Though I am noticing blade sentinel, and its usefulness, I'll look into that as an alternative.

Edit3: I notice blade sentinel's 3/8 weapon damage also applies to enchantment damage. Does this apply to off-weapon enchantment damage too? Does blade fury also work this way?

Edit4: What procing/hit things work with blade sentinel other than previously mentioned prevent monster heal? Does Blade Sentinel interfere in any way with blade fury(no nextdelay with blade fury correct?)? Does blade sentinel damage your weapon(I imagine not, as it is considered some kind of minion right?)?

[librarian]

Heiho,

>>
...what all does the darkness itself do?
<<
seriously annoying people SCNR

>>
I notice blade sentinel's 3/8 weapon damage also applies to enchantment damage. Does this apply to off-weapon enchantment damage too? Does blade fury also work this way?
<<
All the damage you'd do with a Standard Attack is subject to the penalty. Then the blade skill damage is added.

[GriffonSpade]

Heiho,

>>
...what all does the darkness itself do?
<<
seriously annoying people SCNR

>>
I notice blade sentinel's 3/8 weapon damage also applies to enchantment damage. Does this apply to off-weapon enchantment damage too? Does blade fury also work this way?
<<
All the damage you'd do with a Standard Attack is subject to the penalty. Then the blade skill damage is added.
[right][snapback]107614[/snapback][/right]

Hah. so, shorter time definately more useful than longer, which ends up just annoying people once the monsters you used it on are dead. Since Lawbringer's or anything else's curse will cover it up as well. Definately a 1 pointer in my book.

There is no penalty for using a 2 handed weapon with blade fury. A (5-15) crystal sword does 51-69 while a (3-15) spear does 49-69 with blade fury. This makes stupidly powerful and slow (2 handed)weapons a good choice for blade fury.

Reiteration.

Does trangs + venom + bf/bs work?(I don't know where all venom gets a bonus from this applied, as auras and enchant get double bonuses from masteries)

What all OnHit/Procing affects does blade sentinel work with?
Does it damage your weapon?

Shadows, Mind Blast, and Cloak. (For a blade fury assassin)
Does the Shadow Warrior use the same level skills as you, or is it 1/2slvl + 1 like Shadow Master?
I can only get my Shadow Warrior to use One right click skill affectively(except blade sentinel, which is always thrown short; occasionally, I can get her to cloak and then mind blast) at a time, and she never uses blade fury.
Is it worth adding points into mind blast? The stun when maxed is nice(5.8 sec) and the conversion could also be useful(36%), but it is rather short lived(6-10 seconds), and takes a whopping 15 mana per shot.
Is it really worth 19 points from 18% convert to 36%, a little bit of damage, and +3.8 sec stun?
Is it perhaps a better idea to go with Shadow Master, which will bring with it these skills, use them on its own(if only sometimes), at level 11 anyway, and bring its own combat skills to the fore as well?

[bigeyedbug]

There is no penalty for using a 2 handed weapon with blade fury.

The 2H BF penalty is 3/8, as already stated. IIRC, it's not reflected on the Lying Character Screen, but it's there.

Does trangs + venom + bf/bs work?(I don't know where all venom gets a bonus from this applied, as auras and enchant get double bonuses from masteries)

+% Poison damage applies to Venom once when it's cast. If used with a melee attack, it's applied again when the Venom damage is dealt, but not with BF, Sentinal, or any other ranged attack.

Other +% elemental damage effects mirror that relationship. For instance, an Enchantress has her Fire Mastery applied twice to Enchant with melee attacks, and once with ranged.

What all OnHit/Procing affects does blade sentinel work with?
Does it damage your weapon?

The only important effects carried by Sentinals are CS/DS, elemental damage and poison, and chill. It has no effect on durability. Blade Shield is the only blade skill that does.

Shadows, Mind Blast, and Cloak. (For a blade fury assassin)
Does the Shadow Warrior use the same level skills as you, or is it 1/2slvl + 1 like Shadow Master?

Both Shadows have skill levels equal to ((1/3 of her level rounded down) + (1/2 of the Assassin's level in each specific applicable skill, rounded down)).

I can only get my Shadow Warrior to use One right click skill affectively(except blade sentinel, which is always thrown short; occasionally, I can get her to cloak and then mind blast) at a time, and she never uses blade fury.

It's true that she won't use BF. I have no special difficulty getting them to use most other skills though. Just keep in mind that she has a preference for melee, except in specific circumstances.

Is it worth adding points into mind blast? The stun when maxed is nice(5.8 sec) and the conversion could also be useful(36%), but it is rather short lived(6-10 seconds), and takes a whopping 15 mana per shot.
Is it really worth 19 points from 18% convert to 36%, a little bit of damage, and +3.8 sec stun?

Mind Blast is one of the most powerful one-pointers in the game. With extra points, the stun time just becomes silly, and there are many Assassin builds that can really take advantage of that. But it's really not necessary to put extra points in it, especially considering how powerful and safe Trappers are already. It's another good reason to go for +all or +Assassin skills rather than +trap though, especially in HC.

[GriffonSpade]

Thrice damned are the noobish programmers of diablo II's patches! Can't they at least get things to display right!? Surely they must get bored and have an odd desire to actually fix something! Freaking monkeys on typewriters they are.<_<
I have however noticed that shadow master will immediately use blade shield, burst/fade, and venom after being cast, fade giving a high level shadow master complete immunity? It's just too bad Warrior will ignore the skills you set in favor of stupidly charging in.
The darkness on cloak of shadows actually seems to do one thing, provide the defense bonus to the assassin(not really worth mentioning as its only 60 or 70% at level 20...would perhaps be useful to have if it was about double current amount)
As I'm not a regular trapper, and am instead a death sentry/blade furier, perhaps mind blast could be very useful, even needed, but will I have enough mana to really take advantage of it naturally? or will I have to use potions or an insight mercenary to not worry about constantly chugging? And will I break my fingers trying to juggle 4 different skills(cloak, death sentry, mind blast, and blade sentinel) at once? :blink:

[Occhidiangela]

Thrice damned are the noobish programmers of diablo II's patches! Can't they at least get things to display right!? Surely they must get bored and have an odd desire to actually fix something! Freaking monkeys on typewriters they are.<_<
I have however noticed that shadow master will immediately use blade shield, burst/fade, and venom after being cast, fade giving a high level shadow master complete immunity? It's just too bad Warrior will ignore the skills you set in favor of stupidly charging in.
The darkness on cloak of shadows actually seems to do one thing, provide the defense bonus to the assassin(not really worth mentioning as its only 60 or 70% at level 20...would perhaps be useful to have if it was about double current amount)
As I'm not a regular trapper, and am instead a death sentry/blade furier, perhaps mind blast could be very useful, even needed, but will I have enough mana to really take advantage of it naturally? or will I have to use potions or an insight mercenary to not worry about constantly chugging? And will I break my fingers trying to juggle 4 different skills(cloak, death sentry, mind blast, and blade sentinel) at once? :blink:
[right][snapback]107744[/snapback][/right]

Mind blast can save your life. It's only downside is the converted monsters who reconvert too close to you while your attention is other wise occupied. (Frenzytaurs in particular.)

Occhi

[bigeyedbug]

Thrice damned are the noobish programmers of diablo II's patches! Can't they at least get things to display right!? Surely they must get bored and have an odd desire to actually fix something! Freaking monkeys on typewriters they are.<_<

They did such a bad job, it's still a best seller after six years. Show me a game that's perfectly programmed, and I'll show you...checkers. :P

As I'm not a regular trapper, and am instead a death sentry/blade furier, perhaps mind blast could be very useful, even needed, but will I have enough mana to really take advantage of it naturally? or will I have to use potions or an insight mercenary to not worry about constantly chugging? And will I break my fingers trying to juggle 4 different skills(cloak, death sentry, mind blast, and blade sentinel) at once? :blink:
[right][snapback]107744[/snapback][/right]

It's hard to say what will work for you. I greatly enjoyed using MB with my BFer, and I really learned how to use it well with elemental MAs who were using 15 other hotkeyed skills. But that's an approach I like.

It can be a mana drainer early on, but fortunately it rarely needs more than 2-3 casts to get results if cast on a group.

[GriffonSpade]

They did such a bad job, it's still a best seller after six years.&nbsp; Show me a game that's perfectly programmed, and I'll show you...checkers. :P
It's hard to say what will work for you.&nbsp; I greatly enjoyed using MB with my BFer, and I really learned how to use it well with&nbsp; elemental MAs who were using 15 other hotkeyed skills.&nbsp; But that's an approach I like.

It can be a mana drainer early on, but fortunately it rarely needs more than 2-3 casts to get results if cast on a group.
[right][snapback]107747[/snapback][/right]

Heh, it's not so much the original programmers as the patching guys that annoy me(I mean c'mon seriously, giving fangskin his own lootclass and then not actually making it? thats like an intern mistake), and not even bugs in general, it's the EASY bugs to fix, not the hard ones, that go unfixed that anger me. Display bugs and script edits shouldn't be hanging around years after they're diagnosed.
I've had a few programming errors playing checkers :unsure: are you allowed to back and forth multi jump when your checkers are kinged??? Chess for me anyday lol.
OK, I'm convinced lol, I've also noticed a nice big gap in my defense it could protect me from(namely halting monsters coming at me before using cloak)
On an off-topic note, what exactly does a dire wolf's corpse munch do?
Gotta love them summon druids(friend's summon druid and I were mowing down all of normal difficulty in full games, getting mad exp, didn't even need to baal run :w00t: )

[Occhidiangela]

On an off-topic note, what exactly does a dire wolf's corpse munch do?
Gotta love them summon druids(friend's summon druid and I were mowing down all of normal difficulty in full games, getting mad exp, didn't even need to baal run&nbsp; :w00t: )
[right][snapback]107753[/snapback][/right]

They eat monster corpses. I think it causes them to do magical damage.