Assassin Skills Discussion

[bigeyedbug]

Call me a rube, but I am at it again, HC, 1.10D, HC Trapper, done with NM, and the Guide is thus resurrected.

Comments on skills by any trappers appreciated as I restart this project.
[right][snapback]105968[/snapback][/right]

The plan looks good, but I'm mostly just contributing a :w00t: for now.

[ShadowHM]

Drops have been rather paltry to date.

Talk to you later.

Occhi
[right][snapback]105968[/snapback][/right]

I still have that afore-mentioned armour waiting for her to try on to see if she looks fashionable enough in it to keep. :) And I also have a Daggerzon who thinks that a companion with Cloak of Shadows would be a wonderful thing. :blush:

[Occhidiangela]

I still have that afore-mentioned armour waiting for her to try on to see if she looks fashionable enough in it to keep.  :)    And I also have a Daggerzon who thinks that a companion with Cloak of Shadows would be a wonderful thing.  :blush:
[right][snapback]105978[/snapback][/right]

I'll PM you. We probably need to set up a time and meeting place.

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

The plan looks good, but I'm mostly just contributing a  :w00t: for now.
[right][snapback]105975[/snapback][/right]

Safety Amulets: do they add to shield blocking, or to both Shield and Claw blocking?

It seems as though it was meant for shield blocking only

This value is capped at 75%. If the roll of the dice denies a true block, or if the player can't block at all, then and only then, are skills such as Amazon Avoid and Assassin Weapon Block checked for blocking.

<!--QuoteBegin-Weapon Block from AS
+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Weapon Block from AS
)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Weapon Block does not benefit from Dexterity or increased chance of blocking. [/quote]

However, given the vagaries of LoD's features . . . has anyone seen the amulets enhance the blocking percentages for weapon blocking?

Occhi

[bigeyedbug]

Safety Amulets: do they add to shield blocking, or to both Shield and Claw blocking?

It seems as though it was meant for shield blocking only

They don't affect Weapon Block at all, nor does Twitch. The only item mod besides +skills that does affect WB is Faster Block Rate, and that's only available for a dual claw Assassin on Guardian Angel.

[Assur]

I have chosen to go with Shadow Master, but I don't think I'll max her.
Might Merc

Occhi
[right][snapback]105968[/snapback][/right]

I was trying to build up a Trapsin with BF before I quit D2 (Ladder-HC on a 56k)

I decided to go for a fully maxed SM, combined with a HF-Merc. The thinking behind it was that a maxed SM can really keep the monsters occupied and that the Merc will slow them down some more.

Never made it through Hell, but the build is good at "urban combat". Cast a trap at an entrance, cast SM into the room, traps, if Stygian Boss Mob<> Mindblast, more traps, CoS according to taste. If you still die it's the fault of the Merc :o

Or just use traps and CoS for every single room, bit slow but oh so very safe!

[GriffonSpade]

No, it is not.&nbsp; If I delve into item madness, I think the guide will lose value.&nbsp; The idea is to be able to take an Assassin from start to finish without overt concerns with items.&nbsp; Item madness may be an appendix just to allow for a little indulgence, but the core of the guide is tactics, skills, and

How Not To Die In Hardcore.

Occhi
[right][snapback]67619[/snapback][/right]

OK, for blade fury, what all works?

Striking Procing spells do correct?
Magical Enchantment damage also works right?
Deadly Strike?
Crushing Blow?
Open Wounds?
Slow?
-% Target Defense?
-% Target Resist(such as on death's web, -40-50% poison resist)
+% Spell Damage(such as trang-oul's gloves +25% poison damage)


Ladder - Is it worth it to get a +6 valk harmony(tir ith sol ko) crossbow(55-160 3x element, 10 vigor) over the +6 to traps from trap claws?

Ladder - Is Lawbringer(amn lem ko) sword/hammer/scepter(20%/15 decrep, 16-18 sanc aura(+630% edam vs undead & ignores physical resist, +77 magic damage to undead, -50% targ def, 150-210 fire, 130-180 cold) worth using for blade fury switch?
(seems like it would be good for blade fury, half monster defense, lotsa chance for a good duration decrep, 280-390 elemental damage, one handed, massive enhanced damage against undeads)

Is Treachery(shael thul lem) a good choice in body armor(you and/or mercenary)?(5% 15 fade when struck, 25% 15 venom(~300/.4 poison) on striking, +2 sin skills, 30% cold resist, 20% fhr)

none of these 3 are improbable to get before hell either

[Occhidiangela]

OK, for blade fury, what all works?

Striking Procing spells do correct?
Magical Enchantment damage also works right?
Deadly Strike?
Crushing Blow?
Open Wounds?
Slow?
-% Target Defense?
-% Target Resist(such as on death's web, -40-50% poison resist)
+% Spell Damage(such as trang-oul's gloves +25% poison damage)

Yes. What do you mean by Magical Enchantment Damage? Damage from a sorceress enchanting your shurokens? If that is what you mean, then yes. :)

Ladder - Is it worth it to get a +6 valk harmony(tir ith sol ko) crossbow(55-160 3x element, 10 vigor) over the +6 to traps from trap claws?

Not in my opinion, unless you are using a Thorns merc. The added radius for Death Sentry or added damage for other traps are IMO worth more, since you already have a Shadow, a Merc, and both Mind Blast and COS as crowd control skills. LVL 6 Valk isn't going to do enough damage IMO, unless Thorns is up.

Ladder - Is Lawbringer (amn lem ko) sword/hammer/scepter (20%/15 decrep, 16-18 sanc aura (+630% edam vs undead & ignores physical resist, +77 magic damage to undead, -50% targ def, 150-210 fire, 130-180 cold) worth using for blade fury switch?

I think so, particularly in areas high in undead.
(seems like it would be good for blade fury, half monster defense, lotsa chance for a good duration decrep, 280-390 elemental damage, one handed, massive enhanced damage against undeads)

Is Treachery(shael thul lem) a good choice in body armor(you and/or mercenary)?(5% 15 fade when struck, 25% 15 venom(~300/.4 poison) on striking, +2 sin skills, 30% cold resist, 20% fhr)

I prefer not to get struck. The +2 skills armor is goodness, and if you had Lawbringer, fade wouldn't be as necessary against elemental attacks (though it's reduction of physical damage is a fine feature.)

none of these 3 are improbable to get before hell either
[right][snapback]106060[/snapback][/right]

As I said, the Trapper isn't item dependent. If you find the runes for those words, I think Lawbringer in particular would be a fine BF weapon.

Occhi
EDIT: What the heck is up with tags today?

[GriffonSpade]

Yes.&nbsp; What do you mean by Magical Enchantment Damage?&nbsp; Damage from a sorceress enchanting your shurokens?&nbsp; If that is what you mean, then yes.&nbsp; :)
[right][snapback]106060[/snapback][/right]

I said magical enchantment as in all the non physical damage added, including fire, cold, lightning, and poison(as 'elemental' generally excludes poison)

[Occhidiangela]

I said magical enchantment as in all the non physical damage added, including fire, cold, lightning, and poison(as 'elemental' generally excludes poison)
[right][snapback]106062[/snapback][/right]

Yes, it applies to Blade Fury. So does poison.

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

Yes, it applies to Blade Fury.&nbsp; So does poison.

Occhi
[right][snapback]106088[/snapback][/right]

Please critique this description of Cloak of Shadows. Particularly, point out where you think I got this wrong, or where I missed an important effect of Cloak of Shadows.

1. Cloak of Shadows benifits from no synergies, however, its percentage defense reduction effect boosts the chance to hit by Blade Fury attacks that are not ITD.

2. Cloak of Shadows influences the AI of regular monsters. It has not effect on the AI of Champions, Bosses, Super Uniques, and Act End Bosses.

3. The outcome of the AI adjustment manifests itself thusly:

a. Generally, it stops monster movement by reducing the "detection range" to the monster's melee weapon range. (??) If a monster has already "seen" you, and is moving toward you, casting CoS won't end his pursuit until you get out of his original detection range. Once you do that, he will stop, then, you can move in closer and his new, shorter detection range will rendering him immobile until the cloak expires. (???) Various skills are turned off while under the cloak's effect with the following tactical advantages.

Stops missile fire by any missile using monster (until one gets into melee range (?)
Stops spell casting by spell caster monsters (until one gets into melee range (?)
Maggots don't lay eggs
Unravelers don't use poison breath
Prevents Balrogs/Mega Demons from breathing Inferno
Prevents Frenzy by Thorned Hulk
Prevents Frenzy by Frenzytaurs
Turns off Gargoyle Traps
Turns off Lightning Spires
Prevents Overseers from casting "Attract" curse
Stops Demon Imps from teleporting
Stops Inferno by Siege Beast/Demon Imp pairs
Marks Gloam class monsters effectively (Somewhat like Inner Sight and SM do)
Marks Undead Fetish and Fetish class "midgets on crack" monsters effectively
Prevents Reanimated Horde in Act V from charging
Prevents Frozen Horror from breathing
Prevents Putrid Defilers from casting the Hell worm enchantment. (??)

Note: CoS treats Minions of Destruction like a boss. It does NOT influence Minion of Destruction AI You can't peel Lister off from his pack with Cloak of Shadows, unlike the other boss packs in Baal's Throne Room.

On Champions and Bosses, it reduces Defense Rating, but does no AI alteration.

Stacks with Inner Sight :)
Overwrites curses already on target
Does not overwrite Battle Cry

Are there any other features I have missed? Have I gotten my surmises correct on the items with ??'s next to them?

Oblivion Knights appear to be immune to AI altering "curses" which is how CoS is treated.


Occhi

[bigeyedbug]

1. Nit: All CtH attacks.

2. And OKs, and Listerines as noted later. I don't think it blinds Suicide Minions or objects (Lightning Spires, Fire Towers) either, though you might want to check that.

3a. I don't think it corresponds to melee range, except coincidentally. What the exact radius is, and if or how it varies with monster type is beyond me, but I'd hope an MPQ reader would have an idea. I do know that there are monsters that can with care be attacked with range 2 claws without waking them up, and it seems to be fairly easy to be able to do so with range 5 weapons.

If a monster has already "seen" you, and is moving toward you, casting CoS won't end his pursuit until you get out of his original detection range. Once you do that, he will stop, then, you can move in closer and his new, shorter detection range will rendering him immobile until the cloak expires.

Blinded monsters aren't really blinded until notified of the fact, i.e., forced to do an AI check. This happens when they collide with another monster or object, when put into hit recovery or knocked back, and can probably be prompted by other things as well. One thing I should know but don't is whether monsters that are woken up are blinded again once another AI check is forced. As far as the special monster abilities go, they won't use any that I can think of while blinded--it's probably best to keep it simple like that rather than try to make a list.

Inner Sight and CoS do stack, but IS's defence reduction happens first.

I would think that it would overwrite BC like any other "curse" but I can't say it's something I've observed or even looked for. I doubt it overwrites Attract, but again, I'm not certain of that.

Are there any other features I have missed? Have I gotten my surmises correct on the items with ??'s next to them?

There is its defence enhancement, though that's completely minor for most Assassins. You do note some of the important cases of monster marking, but it could generally be said that CoS makes monster location clear in areas that are already dark.

You've actually given me some things I'd like to test out, though I'm unlikely to get the chance for a few days. If you or someone else get to them first, I look forward to hearing the answers.

[Occhidiangela]

1.&nbsp; Nit:&nbsp; All CtH attacks.

Could you please elaborate on that nit? If the weapon isn't ITD, you have to roll a chance to hit. If a hit comes up as true, effects from the weapon are implemented. And so on.

Am I misunderstanding you? :blink: Or are you pointing to spell / elemental attacks that don't have to roll a "to hit?"

I don't think it blinds Suicide Minions or objects (Lightning Spires, Fire Towers) either, though you might want to check that.&nbsp;

Aha, Suicide Minions. Will reconfirm later. Thanks! :) Will double check on fire towers and lightning spires, I was pretty sure I got them, but it was late last night. Gargoyles are for sure.

I don't think it corresponds to melee range, except coincidentally.

I was unclear. The melee range in question is the monster's melee range, which looks to me to be weapons dependent -- goats are the example. You walk up next to "blnded" monster and he attacks you once you get into his detection and attack range for melee (which is what precipitates the AI check, as I understand it.) I am open to correction from anyone who knows a better answer on this.

Note: I never checked cloak on PvP mercs and Valks, Golems, bears, etc. I probably should.

Blinded monsters aren't really blinded until notified of the fact, i.e., forced to do an AI check.

For purposes of where this is headed, in a playing guide, I don't see getting into AI checks. The effect in game is that the monster stands still, or doesn't move toward you, attack you, etc.

I made the list to spell out explicit tactical issues that will be discussed in the guide. HC errors cause death. Spelling out what you can and can't mitigate, as far as tactical risks, is the express purpose of the guide's tactics section. B) A fighter pilot doesn't need to know why the the gimble rate of a SAM is what it is, he needs to know why and how to put the missile off his wing and roll over it in a high angular rate change maneuver to get the seeker head to break lock. ;)

But thanks for the "in the weeds" point. :D

Inner Sight and CoS do stack, but IS's defence reduction happens first.

Thanks for that detail as well. :) A point to consider when choosing a Merc, I'll include it. Mostly an issue for Blade Fury if solo.

I would think that it would overwrite BC like any other "curse" but I can't say it's something I've observed or even looked for.&nbsp; I doubt it overwrites Attract, but again,&nbsp; I'm not certain of that.

I'll check again. I was pretty sure it didn't over write Battle Cry, but memory is hazy. Been a while. I will check again rather than guess. Blizz did fix "BC does not overwrite Taunt" from the 1.10 beta. I suspect you are correct.

There is its defence enhancement, though that's completely minor for most Assassins.&nbsp;

I am making a table to show that for the guide. I'll offer that is can be very handy.

With an ethereal Dusk Shroud Rune Word
Prudence Mal + Tir

2 Socket Body Armor
+25% Faster Hit Recovery
+140-170% Enhanced Defense (varies)
All Resistances +25-35 (varies)
Damage Reduced by 3
Magic Damage Reduced by 17
+2 To Mana After Each Kill
+1 To Light Radius
Repairs Durability In 4 Seconds
Assuming maxed % EnDef and Armor Def Rating, and about slvl 5 CoS from + skills . . . 467 * 1.5 = (700.5)*(1+1.7 + 0.22) 1344 defense. If you chose a Defiance Merc . . . you start to have a Defense Rating that makes a difference, even in Hell. (ITD attacks considered, grrrrr, flaming skeleton archers . . .)
The DR enhancement is not trivial for your Shadow Warrior, due to Warrior's large DR adds if you max her. (Guide will include Crystalion's discussion on Warrior Trap Synergy.) It won't hurt Master either.

You do note some of the important cases of monster marking, but it could generally be said that CoS makes monster location clear in areas that are already dark.&nbsp;

True.

I am spelling out tactically significant details that I think make a difference in HC survival.

You've actually given me some things I'd like to test out, though I'm unlikely to get the chance for a few days.&nbsp; If you or someone else get to them first, I look forward to hearing the answers.

If you find anything interesting, I'd love to include it in the Lounge HC Trapper Guide. :D :whistling:

Occhi

[bigeyedbug]

I was unclear.&nbsp; The melee range in question is the monster's melee range, which looks to me to be weapons dependent -- goats are the example.&nbsp; You walk up next to "blnded" monster and he attacks you once you get into his detection and attack range for melee (which is what precipitates the AI check, as I understand it.)&nbsp; I am open to correction from anyone who knows a better answer on this.

That's just it. Goats for instance can seemingly be attacked within their polearm melee range without getting into their awareness range.

I made the list to spell out explicit tactical issues that will be discussed in the guide.&nbsp; HC errors cause death.&nbsp; Spelling out what you can and can't mitigate, as far as tactical risks, is the express purpose of the guide's tactics section.&nbsp; B)&nbsp; A fighter pilot doesn't need to know why the the gimble rate of a SAM is what it is, he needs to know why and how to put the missile off his wing and roll over it in a high angular rate change maneuver to get the seeker head to break lock.&nbsp; ;)&nbsp;

In that case, you might narrow and expand it to the special effects that are actually dangerous. There's a few that could be subtracted, and a lot that should be added if you'd like to go that route.

But...I do think a class of fighter pilots would understand and make good use of "targets don't do much of anything while incapacitated". Then you just give them the exceptions.

1.&nbsp; Nit:&nbsp; All CtH attacks.

Could you please elaborate on that nit?

It was the most prosaic of nits: :blush: Only that Trappers do have other CtH dependent options available to them besides Blade Fury, even if they are rarely used these days.

[Occhidiangela]

That's just it.&nbsp; Goats for instance can seemingly be attacked within their polearm melee range without getting into their awareness range.&nbsp;
In that case, you might narrow and expand it to the special effects that are actually dangerous.&nbsp; There's a few that could be subtracted, and a lot that should be added if you'd like to go that route.

But...I do think a class of&nbsp; fighter pilots would understand and make good use of "targets don't do much of anything while incapacitated".&nbsp; Then you just give them the exceptions.
Could you please elaborate on that nit?

It was the most prosaic of nits:&nbsp; :blush:&nbsp; &nbsp; Only that Trappers do have other CtH dependent options available to them besides Blade Fury, even if they are rarely used these days.
[right][snapback]106350[/snapback][/right]

Ah yes, Blade Sentinal comes to mind. :) Thrown knives with PMH. And suchlike.

Remaining comments noted, I may wander over to the Phrozen Keep and see what they have on this.

Occhi

[librarian]

Heiho,

>>
Goats for instance can seemingly be attacked within their polearm melee range without getting into their awareness range.
<<

just to be clear, the graphics of monster's weapon has nothing to do with their actual range. Goatmen have range 1.

I've compiled the list adamantine published a long time ago here
http://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/index.p...t=ST&f=8&t=1817
at the bottom of that page
http://www.mannm.org/d2library/faqtoids/monequip.html
all not listed units have range 1.

A brief cross check with monstats2.txt indicates that it hasn't changed. But I was very lazy ;-)

<edit>
shame on me, I've forgotten the link to adamantine's posting
</edit>

[Occhidiangela]

Heiho,
just to be clear, the graphics of monster's weapon has nothing to do with their actual range. Goatmen have range 1.

I've compiled the list adamantine published a long time ago here
at the bottom of that page
http://www.mannm.org/d2library/faqtoids/monequip.html
all not listed units have range 1.
A brief cross check with monstats2.txt indicates that it hasn't changed. But I was very lazy ;-)
[right][snapback]106400[/snapback][/right]

Danke, mein freund. :D

For the English Version of adamantine's original post in an older thread.

Bosses

4 mephisto
4 diablo
4 baal
4 the ancients
3 duriel
2 izual

Monsters

7 water tentacle (do they hit you with anything but that poison spit though?)
5 frozen horror
5 frenzytaur
5 baal's summoned tentacle thingies
4 minion of destruction
3 corrupt rogue lancer
3 flying scimitar
3 abyss knight
3 balrog
3 cow
2 zealot
2 vile mother
2 regurgitator
2 trapped soul

Aligned

3 act 2 merc (like they weren't overpowered enough)
3 druid grizzly
3 poison vine
2 druid wolves
2 life/mana vine

For emphasis: all other attacker monsters are "range 1."

Occhi

[librarian]

Heiho,


>>
2. Cloak of Shadows influences the AI of regular monsters. It has not effect on the AI of Champions, Bosses, Super Uniques, and Act End Bosses.
<<
plus Putrified Defilers, because they're marked as bosses for what reason ever.


>>
Generally, it stops monster movement by reducing the "detection range" to the monster's melee weapon range.
<<
it's their AIDIST parameter I think. Surely not their weapon, the range parameter is independent from that.
<edit>
see links below
</edit>

>>
If a monster has already "seen" you, and is moving toward you, casting CoS won't end his pursuit until you get out of his original detection range. Once you do that, he will stop, then, you can move in closer and his new, shorter detection range will rendering him immobile until the cloak expires. (???)
<<
a pursuing monster must be forced to do another AI check to get rid of. Most common is running into obstacles or Hit Recovery.

>>
Stops missile fire by any missile using monster (until one gets into melee range (?)
Stops spell casting by spell caster monsters (until one gets into melee range (?)
<<
this depends upon which attack is set as default attack. If default is a ranged/caster attack, they'll do it in close combat. Souls do that.


>>
Prevents Putrid Defilers from casting the Hell worm enchantment. (??)
<<
see above, they're AI immune

>>
Note: CoS treats Minions of Destruction like a boss. It does NOT influence Minion of Destruction AI You can't peel Lister off from his pack with Cloak of Shadows, unlike the other boss packs in Baal's Throne Room.
<<
note that boss minion AI seems always to be stronger than common monster AI. If you're not careful, the boss will rush you and his minions will follow him. At least that's what happens with Dim Vision, Confuse and Attract, and you'd find me suprised if CoS would cause other behaviour.

For further research don't trust me, trust Nefarius
http://phrozenkeep.it-point.com/forum/view...p=250661#250661
http://phrozenkeep.it-point.com/forum/vi...hp?t=36230


<edit>
added ads to PK
</edit>

[bigeyedbug]

http://phrozenkeep.it-point.com/forum/view...p=250661#250661
http://phrozenkeep.it-point.com/forum/vi...hp?t=36230

[right][snapback]106409[/snapback][/right]

That's good stuff. :)

RE: Monster melee range. I should have remembered that. I like to say, "Every day I learn a new thing. (And forget at least two.)"

[Occhidiangela]

That's good stuff. :)

RE: Monster melee range.&nbsp; I should have remembered that.&nbsp; I like to say, "Every day I learn a new thing. (And forget at least two.)"
[right][snapback]106454[/snapback][/right]

Very good stuff. Thanks, librarian. :)

Occhi