1H + barehanded vs 2 x 1H

[Concillian]

Interesting data from my rogue lastnight.

1H+bare hand:
normal attack
208 / 252 hit (82.5%)
41 / 252 miss/parry/block (14.3%)
8 / 252 dodge (3.2%)

Sinister strike
94 / 100 hit (94%)
3 miss (3%)
3 dodge (3%)


2x 1H:
normal attack
115 / 156 hit (73.7%)
37 / 156 miss/parry/block (23.7%)
4 / 156 dodge (2.6%)

sinister strike
72 / 76 hit (94.7%)
4 miss (5.3%)
0 dodge

2 other lesser sample size tests fighting only lvl 15 hyenas:
1H + unarmed:
46/52 hit (88.5%)
5 miss / 1 dodge
2 x 1H:
36/56 hit (64.3%)
15miss / 1 dodge

So it would appear that dual weild normal attack gets the miss penalty (as expected), but if you go unarmed in the off hand you do not.

This testing was brought about by warriors in the 'official' forums who claimed they did the most consistent damage with 1H + unarmed because of the lack of miss penalty. They could gain rage much better and with enough STR, could get better DPS than wielding any other set of weapons or a big 2Hander.

It appears to carry over to the rogue, though the rogue could never make as much use of it since you can't poison your hands, and the AP bonus on a rogue is significantly smaller than that of a warrior given the split between AGI and STR. However, I didn't really notice a huge difference between 1H + unarmed and 1H + 1H. I think my DPS was pretty similar in both cases. Not different enough that I noticed any difference in killing rate. Connect more often for less damage or less often for more damage.

I'm curious whether equipping an off-hand fist weapon will count as 2 x 1H or as 1H + unarmed for this miss rate. I'm guessing 2 x 1H weapons

I did that testing through most of my level 19 adventures, mostly killing greens in the barrens. Normally I wouldn't give data that wasn't carefully collected much credit, (I didn't fight only one mob type, or even only one level type, mostly they were in the 15-18 range though for my level 19 rogue) but in this case the margin is large enough that there is certainly some significance to it.

Anyway I thought you may be interested in seeing what I saw.

[savaughn]

It's annecdotal, but my experience has been that 1H+unarmed = 1H+shield = 2H for miss %, and the 1Hx2 miss penalty only occurs in that particular gear layout.

[kandrathe]

I've been thinking about this for my Lvl 20 Hunter who just acquired duel wield. For me, I think that with the right 2 x 1H weapons you would be able to have more adds to abilities like agility or strength that would help to skew the 2x 1H performance in both % to hit and damage.

[Olon97]

Some data I collected a while ago:

--------

At level 43, repeatedly fighting the exact same level 40 mob (cave with high respawn) with only normal strikes:

Main hand weapon (29.7 dps - 1.5 spd) / offhand unarmed:
342 hits, 395 swings, 40 misses.
10.1% miss rate, 13.4% miss/dodge/etc.
Average DPS (measured by combat stats mod) - 56.3 (low 45, high 70)
Average hits per kill - 31.1
Average swings per kill - 35.9
Average misses per kill - 3.6
Average rage gained per kill (including charge each fight) - 93.4

Main hand weapon (29.7 dps - 1.5 spd) / offhand weapon (29.7 dps - 1.9 spd):
170 hits, 252 swings, 77 misses. (fewer total kills, dinged at the end)
30.6% miss rate, 32.5% miss/dodge/etc.
Average DPS (measured by combat stats mod) - 57.8 (low 53, high 69)
Average hits per kill - 25
Average swings per kill - 38
Average misses per kill - 12.2
Average rage gained per kill (including charge each fight) - 96.8

This was with unbridled wrath only at level 2. All relevant skills maxed.

Unarmed was slightly lower DPS but more consistent. Much less streaky. I'll be using unarmed "dual wield" unless Blizzard changes the miss rate or I get a 1h that offers an improvement in DPS I can't ignore.

------

Note: I am now 10 levels higher than when I collected that data, and I still do 1h+unarmed when "dual wielding" almost as a matter of faith. With a 1.3 speed dagger in main hand, and the consistent hitting that unarmed offhand provides, unbridled wrath contributes a reasonable (and dependable) stream of rage.

Dual wield with two weapons will provide better rage bursts when on a lucky streak, but a string of snake eyes is too dangerous in a tanking role. I usually 1h+unarmed the start of fights while tanking and swap in a shield once I feel good about my hold on aggro.

[edit: the mob was a spider, so the miss #s include masked parry events.]

[Guest]

Some points.

-At one time testers showed that holding one weapon gave the same miss rate as dual wielding but only if you trained dual wield - it was possible to eliminate this by holding a torch in the off hand. Those tests were from back in beta I think.

I suggest testing with a torch or similar item in the off hand.

-Dual wielding is still doing more damage even with the higher miss rates(regardless of poison).
Before talents DW adds 50% to your base damage with the of hand but also decreases your total damage by "25%" due to a higher miss rate. It hard to say the true effect on miss rate but its always less than 1/3 of landed hits so DW always wins. Then when you add in DW specialization and poison as you mentioned DW comes out way ahead for rogues.


-Also the idea that one weapon gives more consistant damage is a bit over stated by most people.
Yes your main hand misses more but you also have the off hand hitting ussually.

Consider this case(using 2 identical weapons for ease of calculation) with a main hand hitting for 100 damage. Using your miss rates.

1 weapon - 100 damage .825 of the time, and 0 damage .175 of the time.

2 weapons - 150 damage .543 of the time, 100 damage .194 of the time, 50 damage .194 of the time and 0 damage .069 of the time.

If you have rogue combat talents the varience is even less, also if you use a faster off hand the varience is less..





At one point people thought DW might be hurting the hit rate on finsihing moves but that idea is pretty much abandoned.

[savaughn]

So yes, but your math looks off. If we assume a 82.5% standard hit chance (which seems low - I've been seeing something closer to the 84-86% range) then the odds of both dual wielded weapons hitting is 33% (i.e. (82.5-25)^2), just the main hand is 24%, and just the off hand 24%, with a complete whiff occuring 18% of the time. Not that you need this info, though, since you could just add up the maind and off hand and multiply by the hit% and get the same number (hurray commutivity).

The total damage on the DW ends up at 86.25, or 4% more damage than the 82.5 the 1H would get you. So, yes, the theorycraft says the DW should hit more. Not nearly as hard as it should hit tho, to keep up with the higher DPS of a 2H or to counterbalance the 1H+shield. Still, DW is definitely the rogue's best option.

[Guest]

No

Dont try to mix and match empirical data with the Blizz formulas like that youre making a mess.

[savaughn]

Oh wait... Ok. The data you were using was from the first post. I didn't see where you were pulling your empirical from.

[Malakar]

In the Blizzard response to Warriors, they mentioned DW and stated their combination of lower damage, miss rates, etc, amount to approx 20% higher DPS, to balance it with 2H. They seemed to have a pretty strong grasp on the issue.

[Olon97]

Couple points on using this approach with rogues:

- Rogues already have a dependable and predictable rate of energy regeneration which isn't boosted by consistent hitting. The rage issues that make 1H-unarmed + unbridled wrath attractive for Warriors don't have a 1 to 1 equivalent for rogues.

- While one can't say one combination will do more damage than another without knowing the exact weapons (and attack power) in question, I would suspect that with a fast, equal level green quality offhand weapon (or better) dual wield for rogues should outperform 1h+unarmed. Especially if you use poisons.

You can see if the numbers are close by assuming 85% hits for 1h+unarmed and 70% hits for 1h+1h (rounded for convenience, slightly biased in 1h+1h favor). Here are some example calculations.

I currently use 1h+unarmed with a 36.5dps 1.3 speed weapon (47.5 average damage). My attack power is roughly 600. Assume the unarmed attacks at a 2.0 speed (if not correct, it's probably ballpark). The single hit damge of the 1h swing is 47.5+( (600 AP/14) * 1.3spd) = 103.2 damage per hit. The single hit damage of the unarmed swing (at max unarmed skill) is (600 AP/14)*2 spd*0.5 offHandPentalty = 42.9 damage per hit. (note: these empirically look right to me) Take a crit rate of 10%.

In a 360 second period, the 1h weapon will swing 277 times, hitting 235 times. Of those, 212 will be regular hits, and 23 will be crits (on average still). 212*103.2 + 23*206.4 = 26,630 from the 1h. Unarmed will swing 180 times, hitting 153 times. Of those, 138 will be regular hits, and 15 will be crits. 138*42.9 + 15*85.8 = 7,210 from unarmed. (26,630 + 7,210)/360 seconds = 94 DPS for 1h+unarmed.

[edit: 1230 rage from damage + 94 from Unbridled Wrath (if offhand doesn't trigger): 3.7 rage per second.]

If dual wielding, my main hand will be a 35.2 DPS 2.7 speed weapon (95 average damage) with the 1.3 speed weapon from before in my offhand. Single hit damage from the main hand is 95+( (600AP/14) * 2.7spd) = 210.7 damage per hit. Single hit damage from the offhand is 103.2*0.5 offhand penalty = 51.6 damage per hit.

In a 360 second period, the main hand will swing 133 times, hitting 93 times. Of those, 84 will be regular hits, and 9 will be crits. 84*210.7+9*421.4 = 21,500 from the main hand. Offhand will swing 277 times, hitting 194 times. Of those, 175 will be regular hits, and 19 will be crits. 175*51.6 + 19*103.2 = 11,000 from offhand. (21,500 + 11,000)/360 seconds = 90.3 DPS for 1h+1h.

[edit: 1181 rage from damage + 115 from Unbridled Wrath: 3.6 rage per second.]

(note the 1h+1h calulation doesn't include the thrashblade proc, which probably boosts the DPS higher than 1h+unarmed.)

Those are just my calculated numbers given accuracy estimates that favored 1h+1h. Doesn't take too long to work it out for your own weapon options.

[edits: adding rage calculations]

[Olon97]

Running the #s for this rogue profile from the same server I'm on...

Assumptions:
- 25% crit rate (can't tell the exact amount from the profile, but this should be ballpark).
- Ignoring deathstriker procs. (don't know the proc % and it complicates the calculations). It's still a ridiculous weapon without the proc.
- "1h + unarmed" would be deathstriker + unarmed.
- 70% hits with true dual wield. 85% hits with 1h+unarmed. (ballpark)

Listed Attack power: 440.

1h (deathstriker) avg. per hit: 77.5 + ( (440 attack power /14) * 1.7 spd) = 130.9 damage per hit.
Unarmed = 53.4*2.0 spd * 0.5 penalty = 53.4 damage per hit.

In 360 seconds, 1h swings 212 times hitting 180 times. Of those, 135 are normal dmg and 45 are crits. 135*130.9+45*261.8 = 29,450 from the 1h. Unarmed will swing 180 times, hitting 153 times. Of those, 115 are normal dmg and 38 are crits. 115*53.4+38*106.8 = 10,200 from unarmed. (29,450+10,200)/360 = 110 DPS from 1h+Unarmed.

Main hand (dal'rend) avg. per hit: 116 + ( (440 attack power /14) * 2.8 spd) = 204 damage per hit.
Off hand (deathstriker) avg. per hit: 130.9* 0.5 penalty = 65.45 damage per hit.

In 360 seconds, main hand swings 129 times hitting 90 times. Of those, 68 are normal dmg and 22 are crits. 68*204+22*408 = 22,850 from the main hand. Offhand will swing 212 times hitting 180 times. Of those, 135 are normal dmg and 45 are crits. 135*65.45+45*130.9 = 14,730 from the offhand. (22,850+14,730)/360 = 104 DPS from 1h+1h.

(Again, the procs in this case would likely swing the balance in the favor of 1h+1h).

Too bad rogues do more than just pure melee attacks. :P

[Guest]

A note about how we post here.

We post in threaded form so please respond to the particular post you are addressing rather than always to the original post. It can be confusing otherwise.

[kandrathe]

Dual wield with two weapons will provide better rage bursts when on a lucky streak, but a string of snake eyes is too dangerous in a tanking role. I usually 1h+unarmed the start of fights while tanking and swap in a shield once I feel good about my hold on aggro.

[edit: the mob was a spider, so the miss #s include masked parry events.]
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What I was trying to alude to was that the modifiers on the two weapons might be more important than the total amount of damage output. If I were tempted to dual wield rather than use a 1h + shield, it would be to utilize modifiers on the offhand weapon that upped my stats, like agility or defense sufficient to replace the lost armor. The topic of getting and holding aggro is being discussed in Bolty's priest post as well, and it seems that it is crucial for the party to work together to get the tank engaged before spamming all their high damage distractions.

[Olon97]

What I was trying to alude to was that the modifiers on the two weapons might be more important than the total amount of damage output.  If I were tempted to dual wield rather than use a 1h + shield, it would be to utilize modifiers on the offhand weapon that upped my stats, like agility or defense sufficient to replace the lost armor.  The topic of getting and holding aggro is being discussed in Bolty's priest post as well, and it seems that it is crucial for the party to work together to get the tank engaged before spamming all their high damage distractions.

The only case I can think of where dual wielding weapons for stats rather than for damage considerations would make sense (from a min/max perspective) would be for a hunter who primarily uses their ranged weapon. The more agility the better. Native weapon procs are often too weak to figure into the picture, poison and enchants I don't know what's optimal but they might tip the balance.

While a coordinated party certainly helps tons, a tanking warrior is able to make the largest contriubtion if he gets aggro under control by applying high threat skills as quickly as possible. That comes down to available rage, which comes down to initial, dependable, non-streaky damage (as well as getting hit). Quick warrior aggro lock means safer healing as well as faster and heavier DPS from the rest of the party (leading to less damage taken and less downtime). The trick is for each group to get a feel for the dynamics and unload just as much as the particular tank's aggro holding capacities permits (assuming the mobs are a significant threat to the non-tanks of course).