Accounts banned for Real-World Trading

[nobbie]

--> Clicky!

[Kevin]

--> Clicky!
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Interesting to see. I know it was in the EULA, and I know there is debate on if it actually hurts the game economy. I'm not wanting to get into that.

I do wonder if we'll see a lawsuit though were the defendant is claiming they were actually selling their time or something else.

I also wonder how little of a drop in the bucket a thousand or so accounts was.

[TaiDaishar]

Interesting to see.  I know it was in the EULA, and I know there is debate on if it actually hurts the game economy.  I'm not wanting to get into that. 

I do wonder if we'll see a lawsuit though were the defendant is claiming they were actually selling their time or something else. 

I also wonder how little of a drop in the bucket a thousand or so accounts was.
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Let me tell you a little story.

In eBay a man sees a native beating the snot out of thieves (they call themselves "traders"), "Why do you beat him up, the net is so full of them that you can't possibly make any difference whatsoever!".
The native, raised his head, smiled, headbumped the foul person, breaking his nose and said: "To this guy, it makes a whole world of difference".

[Kevin]

Let me tell you a little story.

In eBay a man sees a native beating the snot out of thieves (they call themselves "traders"), "Why do you beat him up, the net is so full of them that you can't possibly make any difference whatsoever!".
The native, raised his head, smiled, headbumped the foul person, breaking his nose and said: "To this guy, it makes a whole world of difference".
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I wasn't saying it wasn't a good thing, I was just wondering what percentage it got. It could be a drop in the bucky, it could be most of the water. It was just idle speculation.

[TaiDaishar]

I wasn't saying it wasn't a good thing,  I was just wondering what percentage it got.  It could be a drop in the bucky, it could be most of the water.  It was just idle speculation.
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Well, at the end it doesn't really matter, either way you won't be able to do something about it :)

[Artega]

According to the EULA and/or TOS, you don't own any of the items or characters on your account(s); Blizzard does. So, we couldn't have a lawsuit about that.

I don't think you can own time for the purposes of suing someone, either. Otherwise I would have sued my former employer long ago for the massive wasting of my time.

I'd say it DOES hurt the game economy from the ruthless price-gouging these farmers do; a stack (10) light leather goes for 5 silver at our AH now, when it used to be around 10-15 silver. We love price gouging, we do.

We've been doing our part and reporting anyone who we can confrim as being a farmer. So far, we've had six people (accounts) banned, and we're reporting more by the week :)

[ima_nerd]

I'd say it DOES hurt the game economy from the ruthless price-gouging these farmers do; a stack (10) light leather goes for 5 silver at our AH now, when it used to be around 10-15 silver.  We love price gouging, we do.
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Any way that that could just be because of an overflow of light leather onto the market as compared to the number of buyers? Most of my friends (not including me, I'm Mining/Engineering) simply go two gathering professions to make money and buy the occasional product from a production profession. Of course, their profits are dropping due to the lack of customers (hence the subject of this post) but in the beginning it was a helluva way to make a lot of money. I imagine it's a growing trend that could really ruin the economy of raw materiels.

Back on topic, I'm afraid of a market situation similar to D2's or Star War Galaxy's coming up caused by people like them. 90% of the wealth in 2% of the population or something similar.

[kandrathe]

Any way that that could just be because of an overflow of light leather onto the market as compared to the number of buyers? Most of my friends (not including me, I'm Mining/Engineering) simply go two gathering professions to make money and buy the occasional product from a production profession. Of course, their profits are dropping due to the lack of customers (hence the subject of this post) but in the beginning it was a helluva way to make a lot of money. I imagine it's a growing trend that could really ruin the economy of raw materiels.

Back on topic, I'm afraid of a market situation similar to D2's or Star War Galaxy's coming up caused by people like them. 90% of the wealth in 2% of the population or something similar.
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There are a few things different. The most important being BOE and BOP. BOE means that all that leather that was used to create that crafted item once used, cannot be re-sold or handed down as things were in D2. BOP means that in order to have the nice drop you had to have been present at the killing of the boss who dropped it, and presumably won the roll. At first I hated the idea of "soulbound", but now I love it. We all rue having to sell a precious level 20 blue items for silvers, but that is the game. Now I wish more crafted items were BOE, so that professions were even more useful. Maybe even items could wear out over time.

The one thing that these "farmers" are doing that is hurting the economy is that they are causing inflation by devaluing gold, so the cost of goods goes up. They are constantly "farming" anything that they can translate into gold, then they sell that easily transferable gold for real world dollars. This makes AH prices soar as gold is freely available.

They could care less about what happens within the game, they are in it for profit and not for fun.

[ima_nerd]

There are a few things different.  The most important being BOE and BOP.  BOE means that all that leather that was used to create that crafted item once used, cannot be re-sold or handed down as things were in D2.
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I guess my point was that a lot of people (myself included) see the idea of going a production profession (other than Engineering for obvious reasons) is a waste of time and effort. I originally started out with Skinning/Leather Working on my Rogue but soon dropped it once I realized that the number of useful items created as I leveled it up was pitifully small. Many people then choose not to go production professions, pick up two gathering professions and therefore flood the market with raw materials, subsequently plummeting the prices.

When I think back to my D2 days of my friends and I constantly switching and borrowing each other's gear, it seems so absurd after playin WoW for so long. Making BoP and BoE, while annoying at times, really was a stroke of genius by Blizzard.

Now I wish more crafted items were BOE, so that professions were even more useful. Maybe even items could wear out over time.

I was under the impression that all crafted items were BoE. Some require Blacksmithing/Engineering XXX to use but I thought those were the only constraints (and those are few and far between for Blacksmithing) that existed.

[Artega]

Some end-game products are BoP. Among the ones I can recall, pretty much any of the Dark Iron series (which is ridiculous, considering the lengths that one must go to to get the prints to begin with), the two-handed sword Corruption, and Philosopher's Stones are there.

[Malakar]

I guess my point was that a lot of people (myself included) see the idea of going a production profession (other than Engineering for obvious reasons) is a waste of time and effort. I originally started out with Skinning/Leather Working on my Rogue but soon dropped it once I realized that the number of useful items created as I leveled it up was pitifully small. Many people then choose not to go production professions, pick up two gathering professions and therefore flood the market with raw materials, subsequently plummeting the prices.

Indeed, and I'd add a couple things.

In the beginning, many players came from other games where the crafting skills were the way to make money. So they assumed that investing money into their crafting skills would be a temporary sacrifice to make money in the end.

As far as leather goes, many people pick up skinning because it's an easy gathering skill. Unlike mining, you can simply skin stuff as you go along, given that there are tons of skinnable mobs spread throughout the game. In comparison to cloth, which is also easy to get, there's no skill like first aid that everyone can use to soak it up.

On my server, the high level leather is still pretty decently priced, though light/medium leather is pathetic. I guess what it is is that higher level players are realizing that skinning is a good and easy way to make money, so they switch professions and have to skin low level mobs to raise their skill. Meanwhile there aren't so many new leatherworkers; most of them have been doing it all along and are way past light/medium leather.

[MongoJerry]

I was under the impression that all crafted items were BoE. Some require Blacksmithing/Engineering XXX to use but I thought those were the only constraints (and those are few and far between for Blacksmithing) that existed.

There are several tailoring recipes that are bop as well. The classic examples are the Robe of the Archmage, the Truefaith Vestments, and the Robe of the Void. I imagine future patches will introduce more bop recipes.

[ima_nerd]

There are several tailoring recipes that are bop as well.  The classic examples are the Robe of the Archmage, the Truefaith Vestments, and the Robe of the Void.  I imagine future patches will introduce more bop recipes.
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Meh, that makes sense. That makes a nice reward for getting that high of a skill. The only Blacksmithing recipe I could think of was the summonable hammer of which I cannot find on ThottBot so sorry, no link. Currently, Engineering is really the best once to level up as everything you need from other professions you can just buy (with those exceptions obviously).

In the beginning, many players came from other games where the crafting skills were the way to make money. So they assumed that investing money into their crafting skills would be a temporary sacrifice to make money in the end.

I was under that impression as well. However, the trouble I went through collecting what I needed to only level it a few points and then not even make money wasn't worth it. Granted, I only got it to 120-130ish but oh well :P I stockpiled ore and stone for a week or so and leveled my Engineering to 185 in a few hours. It just seems much easier to level because of all it's random, easy-to-make items (Iron Struts, Gold Power Cores, various Dynamites and Blasting Powders, etc) Yeah, I can only make money from vendoring but for the most part I break even after making a batch of stuff.

[Jarulf]

According to the EULA and/or TOS, you don't own any of the items or characters on your account(s); Blizzard does.  So, we couldn't have a lawsuit about that.

So? One can of course call "owning" such data as a bit silly concept to start with, but still, it is really of complete irelevancy. The typical "sale" of such items doesn't change ownership of the item really in case Blizzard owns them, they still "own" them afterwards. After all, you ARE allowed to transfer items to someone else in the game right? How do you fit THAT into ownership with Blizzard by the way?

[kandrathe]

So? One can of course call "owning" such data as a bit silly concept to start with, but still, it is really of complete irelevancy. The typical "sale" of such items doesn't change ownership of the item really in case Blizzard owns them, they still "own" them afterwards. After all, you ARE allowed to transfer items to someone else in the game right? How do you fit THAT into ownership with Blizzard by the way?
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To my way of thinking, Blizzard makes it easier to enforce by keeping the information on the servers.

For me, whatever is installed on my machine I have the rights to use however I would like for my own personal entertainment. But, since most of the information and functionality is installed on Blizzard's machines, they own all the characters and all the items they possess. We merely pay for a service which allows us to play in their sand box.

[Lissa]

There are several tailoring recipes that are bop as well.  The classic examples are the Robe of the Archmage, the Truefaith Vestments, and the Robe of the Void.  I imagine future patches will introduce more bop recipes.
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FYI, those recipes are losing their BoP for the pattern. Blizzard has already confirmed that this is going to happen in upcoming patch.

[Sabra]

--> Clicky!
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Interesting that this would come up right now. Last week, just to see how WoW items might be faring on eBay in comparison to D2's former reign, I headed out and found over 3,000 listings for "WoW gold."

Today it's "5178 items found for WoW Gold." Good that Blizzard tries to do something about this, but I think this is a battle they won't win.

My question is ... who would buy this product and why? I really don't get it. Yet there must be a market and a big one with so many vendors.

Clueless as usual.

[Occhidiangela]

To my way of thinking, Blizzard makes it easier to enforce by keeping the information on the servers. 

For me, whatever is installed on my machine I have the rights to use however I would like for my own personal entertainment.  But, since most of the information and functionality is installed on Blizzard's machines, they own all the characters and all the items they possess.  We merely pay for a service which allows us to play in their sand box.
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FWIW

Yes, we get to play on their golf course by paying the greens fees. We had to buy (or rent) the clubs at their course. What they have no rights to is any betting revenues any of us accrue on the course. That argument and analogy makes sense, as it did in other games. The transfer of goods via trading continues to be valid, and what people are doing is trading. The "off the golf course" money tie in is more like sandbagging one's handicap at other course by missing a lot of shots. Hard to prove, or control.

I think the market for items issue is lame, but that is a matter of taste. I also think their best line of attack is on copyright infringement and failure to get a royalty, per a musician, for a for profit use of their copyrighted material. Not being an attorney, I may be completely wrong about that.

Occhi

[savaughn]

My question is ... who would buy this product and why? I really don't get it. Yet there must be a market and a big one with so many vendors.
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I can only really guess here, but there are a lot of people out there who have a bit more money than time. Buying gold is a short cut. If you have the $$, but really don't have the time to farm the gold in game, buying it on E-Bay is a reasonable solution. It doesn't take a $75,000 Rolex to know the time, but folks buy those, too. These folks buying gold doesn't bother me.

The side of this that annoys me is the gullible side. Kids who are feeling a bit of pressure to do better in the game who take a couple weeks of allowance and send it off for some gold. These same kids were buying unique rings for $20 in D2. Somehow consumerism really has convinced us that just because it's out there, we should own it. Even if buying it is really pretty stupid.

[Occhidiangela]

I can only really guess here, but there are a lot of people out there who have a bit more money than time.  Buying gold is a short cut.  If you have the $$, but really don't have the time to farm the gold in game, buying it on E-Bay is a reasonable solution.  It doesn't take a $75,000 Rolex to know the time, but folks buy those, too.  These folks buying gold doesn't bother me.

The side of this that annoys me is the gullible side.  Kids who are feeling a bit of pressure to do better in the game who take a couple weeks of allowance and send it off for some gold.  These same kids were buying unique rings for $20 in D2.  Somehow consumerism really has convinced us that just because it's out there, we should own it.  Even if buying it is really pretty stupid.
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UH, and my third set of golf clubs? :blink: Oh dear . . . maybe we all fall into that trap now and again. (In my defense, I sold the third set to a friend and my golf club buying days are pretty much over. You can't buy a better game, IMO, but you can practice your way into a better game (on the range) and investment in professional instruction.

Occhi