Clear Casting

[Sabra]

I've been playing a lot with Littledude, Ruvanal's Mage, and we've both noticed that, although my Mage has placed the requisite 5 talent points in Arcane Concentration, she enters a clear casting state far less often than Littledude.

Littledude is a couple of levels ahead of Sabramage, but I can't see how that would matter; if the points are there, they're there.

Could there be a dependency that I may have overlooked? Did I miss another memo?

[Treesh]

My Pepperi has arcane concentration (not all 5 points though iirc) and she gains clearcasting slightly less often than I notice Littledude gaining it, but since she hasn't put all 5 points into it, that's to be expected. I do notice Sabramage not getting it as often as Littledude. Since it's based on chance from each bit of damage you do, maybe using arcane missiles frequently gives a higher chance instead of using things like fireball? Using something that's more like a DoT than burst damage? I'll have to watch more closely when grouped with you two. And do some testing with Pepperi too.

Edit: Took Pepperi out for a spin. Kill lots of things. Only got clearcasting state twice out of all those casts. So very unlike how she usually is. Or was. Got a lot more resists from critters my same level too. I could see upping the chance to resist for things higher level than I am (a 21 shouldn't have been able to easily best a level 25 critter), but did they screw around with the resists for things the same level you are too? Make the meleers not feel so screwed with all their misses and dodges and parries? Bleh. I may just give up on all my damned Alliance characters and just stick with Horde. I don't get nearly as annoyed by the game when I'm playing Horde.

[Tharn]

Since it's based on chance from each bit of damage you do, maybe using arcane missiles frequently gives a higher chance instead of using things like fireball?

It's the opposite - AM have chance to proc clearcast only once during the first wave. So you proc it more often when casting fireball/frostbolt/schorch.

I'm not sure how is it with Blizzard after the 1.3 patch.

[Skandranon]

I think Tharn's on the right track. Since Arcane Missiles only checks for clearcasting on the first wave, if you're using missiles a lot (which you really shouldn't be) you'll be reducing your chances to clearcast. The more chances you have, the more likely you'll be to see clearcasts.

Clearcasts also only proc on hits; in other words, if your spell's resisted you don't have a chance to get a clearcast. This can be an issue if you're facing creatures that are +1 or +2 (you really shouldn't be thinking about +3). The resist curve has always been harmful to mages, and we need to stick more closely to Bolty's advice to go kill green things than other classes do.

I don't know your spec, but depending on what it is you should be able to reliably get one or two clearcasts per battle. It could also be a strategic issue; by this level you should be lighting off early Fireblasts, which isn't an intuitive switch from earlier levels.

[Treesh]

This can be an issue if you're facing creatures that are +1 or +2 (you really shouldn't be thinking about +3).  The resist curve has always been harmful to mages, and we need to stick more closely to Bolty's advice to go kill green things than other classes do.
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Before the patch, Pepperi was consistently winning against +3 and +4 critters in Duskwood without a lot of extra downtime. After the patch, I have troubles with +2. So no, we didn't always have to stick more closely to killing green things than other classes. Maybe higher up, but pre-20, go ahead and fight oranges that aren't elite. Always fighting greens is boring as hell. Edit: And anyway, that suggestion was for powerleveling, not just regular play.

But it does look like you guys are right about missiles only checking on the first volley rather than all the way through. That's why I wasn't definite about my suggestion. ;)

[Skandranon]

Before the patch, Pepperi was consistently winning against +3 and +4 critters in Duskwood without a lot of extra downtime.  After the patch, I have troubles with +2.  So no, we didn't always have to stick more closely to killing green things than other classes.  Maybe higher up, but pre-20, go ahead and fight oranges that aren't elite.  Always fighting greens is boring as hell.  Edit:  And anyway, that suggestion was for powerleveling, not just regular play.
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Boring it might be, but I do believe I have a bit more experience in this than you do. While Bolty's advice was for powerleveling, mages would be wise to stick to it for regular play. The resist curve can lead to a great deal of frustration. If you're not frustrated by it, more power to you.

[Treesh]

Boring it might be, but I do believe I have a bit more experience in this than you do. 
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I'm sure you do. I suppose that means that every single thought I have about mages is completely incorrect and unwanted? Alrighty. Shutting up now. Thanks for letting me know how worthless I am.

[playingtokrush]

I'm sure you do.  I suppose that means that every single thought I have about mages is completely incorrect and unwanted?  Alrighty.  Shutting up now.  Thanks for letting me know how worthless I am.
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I'm personally not a fan of fighting orange mobs with casters. Having unreliable battles full of resists is frustrating and can throw me off my game (especially after a critical frost nova is resisted). That doesn't mean you should be grinding greens. There's still a 5-level region where mobs con yellow, which gives you plenty of options for fighting mobs more reliably. Like Skandranon said, if having resist-laden battles doesn't bother you, then go for it, but don't expect to be seeing clearcasts as frequently.

As far as clearcasting is concerned, you should really only "expect" to see it about once per battle on average, considering over time you will cast ten successful spells per clearcast proc. I know at those levels I didn't end up hitting with more than 10 damage spells very often.

[Brista]

I'm sure you do.  I suppose that means that every single thought I have about mages is completely incorrect and unwanted?  Alrighty.  Shutting up now.  Thanks for letting me know how worthless I am.
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I think you may be taking this not quite how it was meant

What I've found with mine (level 26) is that damage is pretty good up to about +2 but rapidly becomes awful after

This is a change from lower levels

Recently while grouped we moved from an area where I was hitting for 200ish, virtually never resisted to hitting for 50ish, resisted 80% while the rest of my group barely noticed the change (those were 30-32 monsters so +4-+6). This was the first time I had ever experienced such a dramatic falling off in power due to mob level

I think the point Skan was making was that the dynamic changes as you level. If that's so I'd be interested in hearing more about it

[Skandranon]

I'm sure you do.  I suppose that means that every single thought I have about mages is completely incorrect and unwanted?  Alrighty.  Shutting up now.  Thanks for letting me know how worthless I am.
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You know, I must be doing something wrong, because people keep reading these things into my words that I don't mean. I never meant to imply those things, Treesh, and I hope you know that. I'm sorry that you read it that way.

That said, your earlier message was fairly dismissive as well, and my mention of my own experience was partly a reaction to that. I stand by my original sentiment that mages need to take greater care fighting orange mobs - even pre-20.

[Malakar]

From my memory, I could consistently win against +3's, assuming no incredibly bad streak of resists. However it was not as efficient as +2 or lower. I could kill +4's sometimes with luck, but it was very inconsistent, frustrating, and risky.

Grinding on +2's could still be a bit risky though, in the case of adds.

It's been a while since I was in the lower levels on my mage, but if my memory serves me well, the level difference only made a bigger impact at lower levels.


I don't feel much difference between grinding on greens and yellows, except that it's safer with greens. The exp seems around the same.



On the topic of clearcasting, I find the best spell for procing it is scorch. I got the idea off someone in these forums (I forget who, sorry). It's great because not only does it have a very small cast time, it's inherently a very mana efficient spell. Typically in normal instances, all I cast on the normal guys is scorch, and AM when clearcast procs. It reduces downtime greatly.

[LochnarITB]

From my memory, I could consistently win against +3's, assuming no incredibly bad streak of resists. However it was not as efficient as +2 or lower. I could kill +4's sometimes with luck, but it was very inconsistent, frustrating, and risky.

Grinding on +2's could still be a bit risky though, in the case of adds.
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This discussion has me completely baffled. I seem to be playing a different WoW than the rest of you. For Lochnar's entire life, at least the 99% beyond the newbie zone, I have never been comfortable with fighting any baddies +1 or beyond. At +1, I would start to see very noticeable number of casts resisted. At +2 it would start to be a real PITA and at +3 the majority of casts would be resisted. I have a very clear memory of partying with some Lurkers in Loch Modan. We were going after the little carved statues from the troggs at the dig site. We headed in through the entrance that has the platform with a couple troggs. Lochnar started throwing his snowballs. Every one he threw was resisted. Arcane missiles were resisted. After the fight, I made a comment about being useless. The reaction felt like one of those laugh-at-the-n00b moments and the reply was "of course, they were 3 levels higher than you". When I see "I could consistently win against +3's, assuming no incredibly bad streak of resists" my reaction is "Huh, I always get a bad streak of resists against +3's". Oh well, I guess that explains why I always seemed behind in leveling, even though I probably logged more hours than anyone else in the guild. Or, at least partially explains it along with running off picking every flower I could find and sticking my nose into every nook and cranny I came to. :blush: Whatever game it was I was playing, I loved it all along the way and still do, at least when I am actually able to play. :wub:

[Tharn]

Ok, I admit I didn't go against +3 mob for a long time, because that taught me enough to not bother with them. I don't say it can't be done, it's just not worth it. I play on rested xp almost all the time, so maybe I have that luxury, however ... how it goes:

-2 mobs I can kill 2 in row and I have enough mana to kill 3rd if needed

even mobs I can kill 2 in row, but if I got add during second pull, I might run low on mana

+2 mobs I can kill one in row, because then I'll have half mana and maybe even little below, with bad resist streak, add can be very bad

+3 mobs can't be fought with standard tactics, because they resist a lot (usually things like pulling frostbolt or FN) and I am forced to IAM (low DPM), and although I still win, I end the fight with half life and quarter mana. Considering inability to handle potential adds (well ... sheep (if it isn't resisted) and evocation (once per 10 minutes) is always possible :/ ) and danger while resting (from both wandering mobs and players) is just not feasible for me

[Malakar]

I think our differences in experience is probably due to different specs. Up until level 54, I was primarily arcane spec'd. That smoothened out a lot of the resists and allowed me to do damage without stuttering once the monster was up close, which they are for much longer at +3.

If I'm not mistaken, you're an ice mage. I'd imagine that resists hurt you more, in that they'll resist the root/snare effects altogether, and once the monster is up close, you get major stuttering problems. Also, since your damage is in bigger chunks than AM, it's more subject to bad rolls.

[Bob the Beholder]

This discussion has me completely baffled.  I seem to be playing a different WoW than the rest of you.  For Lochnar's entire life, at least the 99% beyond the newbie zone, I have never been comfortable with fighting any baddies +1 or beyond.  At +1, I would start to see very noticeable number of casts resisted.  At +2 it would start to be a real PITA and at +3 the majority of casts would be resisted.  I have a very clear memory of partying with some Lurkers in Loch Modan.  We were going after the little carved statues from the troggs at the dig site.  We headed in through the entrance that has the platform with a couple troggs.  Lochnar started throwing his snowballs.  Every one he threw was resisted.  Arcane missiles were resisted.  After the fight, I made a comment about being useless.  The reaction felt like one of those laugh-at-the-n00b moments and the reply was "of course, they were 3 levels higher than you".  When I see "I could consistently win against +3's, assuming no incredibly bad streak of resists" my reaction is "Huh, I always get a bad streak of resists against +3's".  Oh well, I guess that explains why I always seemed behind in leveling, even though I probably logged more hours than anyone else in the guild.  Or, at least partially explains it along with running off picking every flower I could find and sticking my nose into every nook and cranny I came to.  :blush: Whatever game it was I was playing, I loved it all along the way and still do, at least when I am actually able to play.  :wub:
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Yeah, me too. Admittedly, my mage is is only level 30 right now, but the moment I hit anything more than two levels higher than me, it's likely to be death.

I remember, at level 29, I was kinda grinding some harpies in the Charred Vale, in some vain attempt at finding wool (had just switched from mining/engineering to tailoring/skinning), when I found the entrance to Desolace. I wandered through, went all, "Hey, cool." Saw a level 32 mob and decided to try it out. It got down to about half life before it managed to rip me apart.

And this is with zero stuttering, since it is quite obvious to be using the Improved Arcane Missiles while an enemy is actively whacking you.

[LochnarITB]

I think our differences in experience is probably due to different specs....
If I'm not mistaken, you're an ice mage....
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Yes, that is true. In fact, I have a baby fire mage (Lochspyro) and I'm already finding that he seems much more efficient at killing. He is consistently working at least one to two levels higher than Lochnar did. I do still prefer to play Lochnar though. He is my first love. :wub: :lol:

[The Gnu]

From my memory, I could consistently win against +3's, assuming no incredibly bad streak of resists. However it was not as efficient as +2 or lower. I could kill +4's sometimes with luck, but it was very inconsistent, frustrating, and risky.

This has been my experience too, from very early levels up to level 60.
However, I agree that arcane is less resistance-sensitive, and I noticed a huge difference in solo battles against +3's and +4's after I had respecced to an arcane/fire build.

That said, there's always the cruel hand of fate to account for. I've fought battles against +1's where 5 or 6 spells have been resisted in a row. Similarily though, I've fought battles against +5's and +6's or even larger mobs without getting a single resist.

I wouldn't really recommend killing orange mobs (yeah, yeah, bring on the puns) in a perspective of efficiency though, but the challenge factor is fun. ;)

[Malakar]

I haven't spec'd far enough into ice to get the juicy talents for grinding, but looking at the numbers, it appears that the advantage of ice is crazy mana efficiency, reducing downtime a lot.

So it appears that the counterweight to this is difficulty killing higher con mobs.

Of course, you could spec 5 points into IAM for backup, but that's the spell with the lowest mana efficiency.

Fire is where my talent points went primarily when I respeced. It feels similar to arcane in killing ability, with higher DPS and mana efficiency. You just can't get Presence of Mind, which is a great spell, but I think I like combusted pyroblasts more. :)

[Sabra]

Boring it might be, but I do believe I have a bit more experience in this than you do.  While Bolty's advice was for powerleveling, mages would be wise to stick to it for regular play.  The resist curve can lead to a great deal of frustration.  If you're not frustrated by it, more power to you.
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Skan, I do so appreciate all of your input and I've been re-patterning my casts to fit. There is no one whose input I value as I do yours. It's always concise, clear, accurate and you know I am a big fan.

Now - Re: Treesh and all she's said. Please remember that she and I play together a lot and she knows my frustrations and my comfort zones. Her input is important to me from a personal play sytle level and I will always welcome it.

Thank you so much.

[Sabra]

Now that I've had some soloing time to fine tune and just observe, I've noticed something that I find interesting.

First let me say that leading with frost bolt followed by fireball will elicite clear casting regularly. Not always two clear casts per battle as Skan noted, but then my battles probably don't last as long as Rylea's. Also AM will dilute the effect. So thank you everyone for all of that!

Here's my little head scratcher:

Frequently my Mage makes the clear casting sound and gesture but no clear casting icon appears on screen. Mana seems to be consumed during the subsequent cast, but, if I've observed correctly, not at the same rate as it would be in normal casting.

Is there any other situation that evokes this exact combination of gesture and sound? If there is, what is it?