The hunter's Ranged Weapon Specialization talent

[playingtokrush]

When my hunter hit level 35, I put a point in the ranged weapon specialization talent. My ranged DPS was around 50, and it increased by .1 after placing my talent point. At 36, I put another point in RWS, and my DPS increased by .2. Now, I know I'm getting some DPS from arrows, but a .1/.2 DPS increase from a 50DPS damage base seemed surprisingly small to me.

Does anyone know upon what exactly the RWS talent bases its damage increase? From the looks of it, it's a pretty negligible (lousy) talent.

[Concillian]

Does anyone know upon what exactly the RWS talent bases its damage increase?  From the looks of it, it's a pretty negligible (lousy) talent.
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I would assume it is 1% of base absolute. Other talents like this work on base damage anyway. AP and arrows and such will add on top, so I would think they get no bonus.

Passive talents generally are pretty conservative.

[savaughn]

I would assume it is 1% of base absolute.  Other talents like this work on base damage anyway.  AP and arrows and such will add on top, so I would think they get no bonus.

Passive talents generally are pretty conservative.
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Makes sense. Kind of depressing really, consider the fact that the bulk of your DPS for a marksmanship hunter is coming from the bonus AP. At level 35 a hunter might reasonably be using the Silver Plated Shotgun with a scope and solid shot to hit around 50 DPS. Of that, only 10.4 DPS are coming from that gun. A 1% increase in weapon DPS is going to give you a .104 DPS increase which matches the listed results.

The skill isn't going to give you a staggering visible DPS increase no matter how you slice it. At level 60 at 5 points in, even if you find the Dwarven Hand Cannon (a GREAT end game weapon) you're still only getting 1.74 additional DPS from this skill. That great hunter damage is still primarily coming from your bonus AP.

[playingtokrush]

I would assume it is 1% of base absolute.  Other talents like this work on base damage anyway.  AP and arrows and such will add on top, so I would think they get no bonus.

Passive talents generally are pretty conservative.
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At least the crit related talents operate on total damage. There really is no reasonable explanation for why RWS shouldn't as well, especially when you consider that it has a 25 talent point prerequisite. Five talent points for what will amount to about a 1% damage increase is pretty pathetic.

I guess this seems to be in line with a lot of people's impressions that the hunter talents were rushed.

[Ruvanal]

I guess this seems to be in line with a lot of people's impressions that the hunter talents were rushed.
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The hunter class over all was 'rushed'; in spite of the great delay before they made available for testing. The first versions of the hunter that the beta testers had access to were so broken that most could not play the class past level 20 due to all the things that were not working in a reasonable fashion. I still remember the pet aggro bug that had me training a mob from near the Great Lift up to Crossroads before I took the time to break the chase off. Most players did not know how to break this so would end up being chased till they were dead from the mob nipping at them.

The first version of the hunter that I would consider moderatly as well balanced was the one rolled out to start the open beta test. This would put that version roughly on par with most classes as they were at the start of phase 3 beta (approximately 8 months before?). So until they sit down and really address some of the things that were intended for Hunters, I do not think we can hope to see a decent balance on things like the Talent trees.

[savaughn]

At least the crit related talents operate on total damage.  There really is no reasonable explanation for why RWS shouldn't as well, especially when you consider that it has a 25 talent point prerequisite.  Five talent points for what will amount to about a 1% damage increase is pretty pathetic.
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If 5 talent points = 1% better sustained damage and I can get 50 talent points (improving overall damage by 10%) - damage that is sustained and improved by crits, etc., I'd describe the results as perfect rather than pathetic. That's actually right in line with the rest of the hunter's talents. Improve Hunter's Mark gives an extra 16AP and Improved AoH gives an additional 22AP. If 12AP = 1DPS (not sure where I heard that, so that may be wrong) then you're looking at 1.74DPS for RWS, 1.83DPS for IAoH, and 1.33DPS for IHM at end game. Sure, the burst damage increases are much lower than, say, a Fire Mage's skill tree, but then this damage is constant and continuous, besting the equivalent Mage in a long end game encounter such as an MC boss.

WoW game design understands the benefits of working in incremental benefits.

[playingtokrush]

If 5 talent points = 1% better sustained damage and I can get 50 talent points (improving overall damage by 10%) - damage that is sustained and improved by crits, etc., I'd describe the results as perfect rather than pathetic.  That's actually right in line with the rest of the hunter's talents.  Improve Hunter's Mark gives an extra 16AP and Improved AoH gives an additional 22AP.  If 12AP = 1DPS (not sure where I heard that, so that may be wrong) then you're looking at 1.74DPS for RWS, 1.83DPS for IAoH, and 1.33DPS for IHM at end game.  Sure, the burst damage increases are much lower than, say, a Fire Mage's skill tree, but then this damage is constant and continuous, besting the equivalent Mage in a long end game encounter such as an MC boss.

WoW game design understands the benefits of working in incremental benefits.
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First, that still doesn't account for my comment that the two crit related talents improve overall DPS by a much better margin than a higher-tiered talent, which doesn't seem right at all.

Second, saying that RWS is "right in line with the rest of the hunter's talents" and then comparing it to two other bad talents (in the talent trees of what is arguably the most unfinished class) is not very convincing.

[savaughn]

First, that still doesn't account for my comment that the two crit related talents improve overall DPS by a much better margin than a higher-tiered talent, which doesn't seem right at all.
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The interesting thing about the hunter bonus DPS is that it all actually stacks on top of each other. By the time you get to Trueshot Aura, you've got no less than six talents stacking directly on top of each other with the four bonus damage skills getting a further damage boost from Mortal and Lethal shots. Your 25 tier talent gives you a flat increase across the board as does your 30 tier. I'm not complaining. By comparison, a fire mage has their more common abilities (pyroblast, fireball, etc.) enhanced by only Ignite, Critical Mass and Firepower - half as many damage bonuses. And most builds have no increase to the very commonly used Arcane Missiles.

Second, saying that RWS is "right in line with the rest of the hunter's talents" and then comparing it to two other bad talents (in the talent trees of what is arguably the most unfinished class) is not very convincing.
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I'm not comparing them to two other bad talents. I'm comparing them to every non-crit related direct damage boost in the Hunter line except Trueshot Aura which provides an additional 2.5dps - higher, but still in line with the others.

You can feel free to be dismissive of the bonus damage all you like. A 7DPS increase (17.5DPS for a crit) isn't the end of the world. As such, there are two other trees or entirely other classes you may choose to indulge in, instead. My hunter is quite happy to be a marksmanship hunter.

[playingtokrush]

By comparison, a fire mage has their more common abilities (pyroblast, fireball, etc.) enhanced by only Ignite, Critical Mass and Firepower - half as many damage bonuses.

Go ahead and take a look at the numbers involved in those bonuses. Just noting that there are fewer talents to boost the damage of the staple fire spells does nothing. The quality of the talents is the key.

You can feel free to be dismissive of the bonus damage all you like.  A 7DPS increase (17.5DPS for a crit) isn't the end of the world.  As such, there are two other trees or entirely other classes you may choose to indulge in, instead.  My hunter is quite happy to be a marksmanship hunter.

Um, I'm talking about RWS here. RWS would give you something around a 1.5 DPS increase at level 60, depending on your weapon. The contention is that is a pitiful bonus for a five point investment in a 25-TP prerequisite talent.

Edit: this all ties in to my statements here:

http://www.lurkerlounge.com/forums/index.p...542&#entry71542

For those who are content with cookie cutter builds, there's really no problem. But I'd rather see Blizzard encourage more versatility.

[savaughn]

There is a fairly massive difference between, say, a mage and a hunter. A mage is a single source of damage. That fireball he'll eventually cast, or the arcane missiles or whatever. When a hunter goes into combat, he may be providing damage from five or more sources at the same time. Half the overall DPS is his autoshot, another 30% is his pet, the rest is made up of shots and stings. Now, imagine if a hunter could, in the same build, substantially improve the pet damage, the autoshot damage, and the shot/sting damage. The hunter tree is designed to allow this. Improving each of these incrementally adds up to be a substantial improvement. If each individual change was a substantial improvement, you'd end up with horrible imbalance. A hunter can increase damage with IAoH, IHM, RWS, TSA, LS, MS, UF, Frenzy, Ferocity, IAS, ISS, and ... get this ... they all stack.

Make any one of those improve a hunter's abilities anywhere near a 2% overall damage improvement, and you're going to create massive balance issues.

<edit: That should be 2% per talent point, ala Fire Power>

For those who are content with cookie cutter builds, there's really no problem.  But I'd rather see Blizzard encourage more versatility.
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I guess I see the exact opposite. If the 25 point skill is a killer end all be all skill, people shoot for it because it makes them the most efficient they can be. You end up with a cookie cutter build. That seems pretty straightforward. You have cookie cutter mages specifically because some talents are so much better than any of the others. IAM and IAE are game changing talents, so every mage out there is arcane/fire or arcane/frost. If all of the talents are roughly equal, then that is EXACTLY what encourages more versatility.

If all skills give a minimal, but noticable improvement then you have a balanced tree and that is precisely what encourages variety. It is the fact that you can choose to ignore Trueshot Aura and RWS that encourages people to explore the Beast Mastery tree which has similar, incremental improvements.