I've got 4 days left on my account...

[Catlyn]

Do I renew or do I not?

Stability is much improved, and that addresses my initial problem. However, I've seemingly fallen into the trap that drives me away from most MMORPGs. I've gotten to the point where I can't really do anything without a supporting cast, and though the likely pool of Lurker companions has grown to about a Dozen (60s), I'm finding it increasingly difficult and frustrating finding a groupp to go do something.

Here's what's choking my quest log:
The Demon (Rhak'lik?) in Blasted Lands (Once attempted, foiled by instability.)
Blackrock Spire. (Lower and Upper. This is half or more of my Quest Log)
Scholomance and Stratholme. (Two quest lines in particular I want to do)

So, can I get some help? When? Doing what?

[Catlyn]

Oh... I've also done the Molten Core Introduction quest, so that's a possibility too.

[Arethor]

I'm not yet ripe, only 53, but as soon as I'm old enough I'd be more than happy to quest with the famed Catlyn, regardless of if I have the quests or not. Unfortunately I don't see this happening till around the end of the month soonest, so won't really help with your 4-day deadline.

[Guest]

Im feeling the same. Im not having much fun nowthat everything is in an instance requires a balanced group.
Im not unhappy about the time I spent in WoW. I had a blast leveling up, questing and exploring. But im not having fun now, so I may quit.

I Have experienced all the content outside of the high end instances. I have run many of the end game instances and really havent enjoyed it at all.
They feel like a theme park ridse rather than an adventures.



Im hopeing the honor system saves the game(I loved DAoC), but other than that I dont see much good to hope for.

[kandrathe]

I'm not yet ripe, only 53, but as soon as I'm old enough I'd be more than happy to quest with the famed Catlyn, regardless of if I have the quests or not.  Unfortunately I don't see this happening till around the end of the month soonest, so won't really help with your 4-day deadline.
[right][snapback]73629[/snapback][/right]

I see another wave of 12 or so Lurkers (hopefully including myself) reaching 60 within a month.

[LochnarITB]

Do I renew or do I not?
[right][snapback]73620[/snapback][/right]

My vote would be for renew (same goes for Niniuin/Tutelin/Sword of Doom). However, I don't have a vote. There is only one vote, yours.

I've gotten to the point where I can't really do anything without a supporting cast, and though the likely pool of Lurker companions has grown to about a Dozen (60s), I'm finding it increasingly difficult and frustrating finding a groupp to go do something.

I felt I was at, or close to, this point quite some time ago. I want to play Lochnar but I can't find it in myself to ask for people to join me. I have several reasons for this. First, it smacks of "can I play with you big guys? huh, huh? can I? can I go too? pretty please?". Invariably, somewhere along the way I will hear "Loch needs...". While logic tells me that people wouldn't be helping if they didn't want to, the feeling is still that of "geez let's get Loch's stuff done so we can go back to having fun".

I don't try to organize things either. Not because I can't, but because I find it too frustrating. If I'm going to set something up, I want it to happen when I say it is happening and how I say it is happening. I also feel obligated to have everything go well with everyone pleased at how it goes. In reality, I am dealing with real people behind the toons. People don't show when/where they are supposed to. People get upset if things go too fast or too slow. There are always too few or too many breaks for RL, depending on which player you talk to.

Also, there are now many players who have seen everything. They are doing things for loot alone. There is no more thrill of discovery, the concept that really drives me. Bolty's post, which can be summed up in the following quote, is the result of this, as I see it.

Well, because I like to complete my instance runs before the paint peels on my walls, that's why.  If you're going into an instance with me as a tank, be prepared to move from fight to fight to fight without much stoppage of play.
[right][snapback]73591[/snapback][/right]

I see this as a symptom of people being burned out on the end game content. It is still discovery for me so I don't always know what is going to happen around the next corner with the next pull. I still agree that it is the way to play in a rinse-and-repeat scenario. My character can often be seen running into the battle after it has begun because I have stopped to drink while they proceed into battle. Doing so with content I have not seen makes me nervous. Should I have been there to sheep? Are they counting on AOE? I don't know because I haven't been there and it is sometimes hard to asses if the battle is already raging.

Pickup groups are simply out of the question. Problems I see playing with people I want to play with are magnified when I play with people I am forced to play with.

PvP is also not an option for me, at least as it now stands. Even on a PvP server, with all the talk of excitement and camaraderie, it seems the only point I see is to disrupt another person's play. I do look forward to battlegrounds, if done well. PvP, in a capture-the-flag setting, seems like it could be a lot of fun. There would be rules and objectives that all parties would be playing under.

I have, at least for a short while, found new life in the game. I have been playing a Tauren hunter on Terenas. This has done two things for me. It has given me new content to discover. All the alts on Stormrage are just doing the same old content in different ways. As Horde, I have new quests in areas I barely explored as Alliance. I also find that the hunter (as well as the warlock I have also made on Terenas) can solo much more content by waiting until they are almost gray, or even just turned gray. I may not get nearly as much xp/rep that way but I get the satisfaction of being able to handle things with just me and my lion (savannah patriarch), Felix.

With all that, as I said earlier, I still want to play Lochnar. He is my first love. If Bliz were to open another continent of solo continent, I would be as happy as a pig in slop. My new hunter would soon be at full rest state while Lochnar explored with new found vigor. He has a lot of BRD and most everything up from there but he will probably get little of it done due to what I said above.

A guild the size of the Lurkers is also conducive to the formation of cliques. There are not so many people that pickup groups, of guildies only, are easy to form but there are enough that a couple cliques of similar levels and play times can sap the player pool and let a few out of sync players fall through the cracks.

If people happen to want a glass cannon freezer unit in their party, I am easy to find. I am generally playing from at least early evening until most people are getting out of bed. If I am not on Stormrage playing an alt or checking mail, I am over on Terenas. If people want to coordinate something before hand, there is the Lounge, in game mail and even email (always there in my sig).

[Bolty]

Also, there are now many players who have seen everything.  They are doing things for loot alone.  There is no more thrill of discovery, the concept that really drives me.  Bolty's post, which can be summed up in the following quote, is the result of this, as I see it.[right][snapback]73651[/snapback][/right]

Loch, your quote amused me actually, considering I have yet to ever set foot in Stratholme, Scholomance, Lower Blackrock Spire, Upper Blackrock Spire, Molten Core, Onyxia, or many other places/events in game at high levels.

Plus, you're taking my statements out of context. What tends to drive me nuts isn't players new to an instance who want to proceed through it with some additional caution and time. Questions like "which way are we going?" or "what's dangerous up ahead?" are totally fine with me, and in fact I *really* enjoy escorting people through instances for the first time to point things out to them. It's the player who's the designated tank who just *stands there* when everyone is clearly ready to go that drives me insane. I put that post up because it's happened on a number of Lurker groups and I was literally tearing my hair out after a while. In the end, I'd be wand-pulling with my Priest and the tank(s) never seemed to be bothered by the fact that their HEALER was pulling things. However, after a full minute or more of just standing around waiting while nobody was even typing anything or performing any activity but staring at the next group of mobs, I would reach my limit of patience.

In a way, I'm with you on some of your issues - you and I both prefer the solo style of play. I like it because, just like you, it allows me to play *my* way, at *my* pace, just the way I like it. This is a result of a lot of Diablo-style play, no doubt - and many Lurkers may fit under this category whether they know it or not, because most of us came here from the Diablo games where solo play dominated much of it.

So we longtime Diablo players are being thrust into the MMORPG world, many of us for the first time. We will either adjust to the reality of needing to group up, or we won't. You are having trouble adjusting, and I am as well - I find myself never getting around to doing these high level instances because:

1) They require a lot of time. A 10-hour run of Stratholme that I heard about just gives me the heebie-jeebies.
2) They depend on many other players, which feeds into #1.
3) I'm not part of the "cliques" that form up on the servers because I prefer soloing, thus I don't get invited.
4) I don't "farm" - once I've run an instance and cleaned out its quests, I'm done with it. Maybe someday that'll change, but for now I prefer leveling alts over farming.

So you and I are hitting the wall - either we learn to group up and play well with others, or we'll be moving to the Next Big Thing (Guild Wars?) in short order. I don't know if I am the right personality for it either...

-Bolty

[Tal]

1) They require a lot of time.  A 10-hour run of Stratholme that I heard about just gives me the heebie-jeebies.

[right][snapback]73686[/snapback][/right]

To be honest a lot of blame for the 10 hour Scholomance run can rest upon my shoulders. Simply put I made a lot of mistakes in main tanking and that added time that could have been avoided.

[Lissa]

Loch, your quote amused me actually, considering I have yet to ever set foot in Stratholme, Scholomance, Lower Blackrock Spire, Upper Blackrock Spire, Molten Core, Onyxia, or many other places/events in game at high levels.

-Bolty
[right][snapback]73686[/snapback][/right]

Small Nit. I distinctly remember one Friday night you making the comment of, "this place looks like hell on earth" and when I checked the guild page, you were in Stratholme... :whistling: :P

[Drasca]

Do I renew or do I not?
[right][snapback]73620[/snapback][/right]

YES! I love the HoT spell renew. Renew my voidwalker pet while you're at it.

[Tal]

Do I renew or do I not?

Stability is much improved, and that addresses my initial problem. However, I've seemingly fallen into the trap that drives me away from most MMORPGs. I've gotten to the point where I can't really do anything without a supporting cast, and though the likely pool of Lurker companions has grown to about a Dozen (60s), I'm finding it increasingly difficult and frustrating finding a groupp to go do something.

Here's what's choking my quest log:
The Demon (Rhak'lik?) in Blasted Lands (Once attempted, foiled by instability.)
Blackrock Spire. (Lower and Upper. This is half or more of my Quest Log)
Scholomance and Stratholme. (Two quest lines in particular I want to do)

So, can I get some help? When? Doing what?
[right][snapback]73620[/snapback][/right]

I'll try to be on every evening this week with Sharanna to help out with quests. I can't guarantee every night but I will endeavour to do so. I think we actually have enough late 50s that need Stratholme that we can probably form two groups. I propose we meet this friday night at 8pm and form up to knock out some quests. If this time doesn't work for everyone please suggest alternate times. I'll be needing Loch's help with this group as well. ;)

[Quark]

1) They require a lot of time.  A 10-hour run of Stratholme that I heard about just gives me the heebie-jeebies.
2) They depend on many other players, which feeds into #1.
3) I'm not part of the "cliques" that form up on the servers because I prefer soloing, thus I don't get invited.
4) I don't "farm" - once I've run an instance and cleaned out its quests, I'm done with it.  Maybe someday that'll change, but for now I prefer leveling alts over farming.

1) It wasn't really a matter of "we gotta keep going, we gotta keep going!". We were simply making progress, slowly, and no one had any big desire to stop. I would not have been upset if we had cut out early, I would have just gone to do something different. I went in on a whim, anyway, just grabbing quests as I went. I didn't go in expecting to finish anything, and came out quite happy.

We also made mistakes in that run. That's okay, I'm not perfect and I hope no one else is (or the perfects won't group with me!). We learned, we fought back, and even though much smaller in scope, our 2nd attempt went much smoother. The only real problem we had the 2nd time was when a boss knocked our priest out of the instance! Ouch.

One more thing: if you want high-level instance runs to go smoothly and in less time, have a set list of things you want to do. Don't sidetrack, just do them as efficiently as possible. If you want to hit something else, you can go back another time. Split the instance into seperate runs. If some things coincide, you can do them together. Otherwise, be willing to accept the fact that it will take a long time.

2-3) It really helps just throwing something up on the forums. Especially for those of us who are half-involved with the Lurkers "guild", it helps set things up.

4) Sorry, but I hardly consider what I do farming. In Diablo 2, once you completed an area, you knew it. There were very few things to learn about each area, and the fact that monster spawns were random threw most learning out the window. In WoW, you can run an area 5 times, and on the 6th still learn something new. In addition, I'm more there for the group dynamics. Having 5 people work well together can be an awesome sight. Awhile back, my first run with any Lurkers was with Sharanna in Uldaman (2 other Lurkers and a Basiner to fill up). I knew they weren't going to the one area I still needed, and I knew my chances of loot were low. It was still fun, and therefore, worth it.

The fact that I keep coming back for more must mean something, because I certainly haven't gotten much item wise from my travels. Tal knows about how often Rogue gear has dropped for me when I was grouped with Lurkers (just once, from Incendius), and my guild knows how often I win a roll when I'm not the only one who wants something (never, not once in the past month). One of my guildmates even tries buying stuff from AH to upgrade my gear, since I am reluctant to do it myself :)

It doesn't take a quest or loot for me to have fun. I'll keep going back to Scholo, if others want, to eventually kick that places butt!

[Sabra]

It's tough to be a trailblazer, and that's what those of you who are now 60s are. Trailblazers. It's lonely at the top, even in Azeroth, I guess.

So all this makes me wonder ... Is it time for the Lurkers Guild to begin incorporating more structure? NOT RIGOROUS STRUCTURE --- I know how you all dread that --- but planned questing events for our high level players that are announced and "signed up for" in advance?

<prepares for the explosion> :shuriken:

[Pesmerga]

So all this makes me wonder ... Is it time for the Lurkers Guild to begin incorporating more structure? NOT RIGOROUS STRUCTURE --- I know how you all dread that --- but planned questing events for our high level players that are announced and "signed up for" in advance?

<prepares for the explosion>&nbsp; :shuriken:
[right][snapback]73716[/snapback][/right]

Personally, I'm all for signed up events. Not as insane as say, Blood of the Horde, but something that could get a group of us together to do some fun high level things. Pick up groups are wonderful and all for things such as taking out Baron Rivendare, but I'd honestly prefer planned questing events with people I trust, and enjoy playing with.

::thumbs up:: I like the idea.

[Skandranon]

I can't find it in myself to ask for people to join me.&nbsp; I have several reasons for this.&nbsp; First, it smacks of "can I play with you big guys? huh, huh? can I? can I go too? pretty please?".&nbsp; Invariably, somewhere along the way I will hear "Loch needs...".&nbsp; While logic tells me that people wouldn't be helping if they didn't want to, the feeling is still that of "geez let's get Loch's stuff done so we can go back to having fun".

For some of us, fun is making sure others get their quests done, as well as guiding people through instances. I plunged back into BRD with Rylea when there was no experience, no loot and no quests for me just to help Tal, Mentat, and Bun get their quests done. The group experience was enough for me, and the knowledge that something was getting done was satisfying enough.

I would always be happy to help you, and everyone else, out...but ASK! For the love of God, ask! It certainly doesn't seem like begging to me. More importantly, if you don't ask, how are we supposed to know what you need? I'm not a mind reader. Ask. Lots of the time you're going to get no response at all, but then you just ask again later. I can't count the number of times I've asked "Anyone want to..." and gotten silence. But I can remember the times where I asked and we got to go somewhere. Simply: there may be a high chance of not getting anywhere if you ask, but there's a *certain* chance of going nowhere if you don't.

A guild the size of the Lurkers is also conducive to the formation of cliques.&nbsp; There are not so many people that pickup groups, of guildies only, are easy to form but there are enough that a couple cliques of similar levels and play times can sap the player pool and let a few out of sync players fall through the cracks.

I feel I need to respond to this, too. I don't believe that there are any exclusive cliques within our current in-game guild. For me, the only criteria for a group are that the other people are of an appropriate level and need to go too. That's all.

A couple nights ago, I ran Dire Maul west with an all-Lurker group. About a month ago I was in LBRS with an all-Lurker group. Not a single other person besides me had been in both groups. Over the course of the last six to eight weeks, I'm certain that I've grouped with *every* level 60 we have. My group choices are based on who's online and willing to go - nothing more.

For a while, from the 55-60 range, five of us did run regularly together. That's because there were six of us racing to 60 and, unfortunately, someone had to be odd man out because of the game design. But we're going to hit 15 60s within a week or two, as Bolty observed (though two of those are going to be me and one is SoD who isn't playing with us), and the situation isn't likely to repeat itself. Importantly, the new crop of 60s lacks a mage - the next highest coming up is Quark's Mitzy - so you'll be a welcome presence for any group.

Essentially, what I have to say to you and everyone else is - if you want a group, ask for it! Come online and say, "I need to do this. Who's with me?" And if no one can do it now, ask about who's available later and arrange a time in the future. It all starts with asking.

[Tal]

It's tough to be a trailblazer, and that's what those of you who are now 60s are. Trailblazers. It's lonely at the top, even in Azeroth, I guess.

So all this makes me wonder ... Is it time for the Lurkers Guild to begin incorporating more structure? NOT RIGOROUS STRUCTURE --- I know how you all dread that --- but planned questing events for our high level players that are announced and "signed up for" in advance?

<prepares for the explosion>&nbsp; :shuriken:
[right][snapback]73716[/snapback][/right]

I've always encouraged folks to post here with quests they would like to do - if nothing else it allows folks like me to clear things with my CEO (the wife) so that I can be there.

I can certainly continue to post events here but I had somewhat stopped as I felt selfish constantly posting quests I need to get done.

As I've already stated in Guild chat and here, I try to live by the model of "have tank will travel*" but I am limited in how often I can do instances. They are still very much a matter of clearing my schedule to have the requisite time and lack of child responsibility to do so.

*The caveat being that there are some instances where a paladin as main tank is a distinct disadvantage. Places that come to mind are BRD where you have multiple humanoid mob pulls which is difficult for a paladin to gain and hold aggro on.

[mjdoom]

I'm not sure where exactly to stick this reply so at the top it goes.

I'd just like to say that I love taking the responsibility of putting groups together. Despite the fact that I usually like to shirk responsibilities in Real Life ™ for some reason I enjoy it in game. I don't think there is a single 60 in our guild (except maybe Sommli who just got there) that has not received a party invite from me at some point. I try to get everyone involved whenever possible. I've also noticed Tal trying to take charge and put groups together for runs (including that Scholomance run).

Beyond that we have more of the Lochnar's and Bolty's of the world who will be able to lead or join easily when things fall into place but otherwise don't want to put in the effort to round up bodies for runs. There is nothing wrong with this but it ends up leaving a reliance on the people who do set things up to make an effort to include them.

My play times have been at weird hours for the last few weeks due to the frisbee season leading up to our sectional tournament this weekend. This has led to me taking more of a back seat at organizing things because I have been on at late hours when many people cannot commit the time for instance runs. Within a week or two this will likely change and I will actually be on during prime time on weeknights again and you can count on me to try to put more runs together. Included in that is my high desire to lead a motley crew of adventurers into the Molten Core.

That said, here are a few tips that might help. If you want to run more content these are the ways to either spur me on or at least get involved when I am putting things together:

1.) Just being around: If any impetus gets me to put a group together there is a very standard approach I have. The first thing I do is check the guild list to see who is on (and yes, I know the names of pretty much every alt in the guild so I know which people are on, not just which chars). Depending on the situation I will either broadcast in guild chat or start whispering people to see if they are interested in joining me. I am also not very picky about classes. I don't ever feel compelled to put together an ideal group so almost anything is within the realm of possibility. That said I might drive for a particular role (tank, healer) in certain situations.

If the guild list is exhausted I then move on to places like my friends list, a /who basin, and/or the honorables channel. Very often I can pull enough people together from those sources to make it happen. When I decide a run is going to happen I will try as hard as I can to make it happen and it usually does.

There are also special cases like Loch being on Terenas a lot lately. If you let me know about that I will keep that in mind and send someone over to check on interest if I am putting a run together.

2.) Mention to me that there is something that you specifically want to do. Catlyn mention Rakh'likh (whom I also have a large desire to kill). Mentioning things like this will spur me to put groups together to do quests/events that YOU want to do and also gives you the benefit of being the "sponsor" of my group. What I mean by this is you will most certainly be the first person invited to the run and I will generally try to tailor it to what you want. I like to think I have a pretty good pulse of where people are in their respective adventures in Azeroth but it never hurts to remind me sometimes.

3.) Either look for me to set something up on the boards (stay tuned for another week or so while I straighten out my real life schedule) or post something on the boards yourself. If you have an idea and can get me involved I can always try to pull in more people to fill it out if the Lurkers don't quite have the numbers. The boards also have another advantage, they include the Lurkers who aren't a part of our guild. Most of these people are on that fabled friends list I keep but don't forget people like Ramala, Miodvitnir, Tribade, Spangles, Darian, and anyone else I'm forgetting right now (sorry :() Some of these people are very willing to help out if you give them the opportunity.

If none of these things apply to you it is going to be hard to get a group in general. If you are not the one planting the seed then the easiest way to get invited by me is to just be around. If you don't have as many play time restrictions it is advantageous to just be around (even on an alt if you need a change of pace) and we'll come get you. If you are more restricted in your playing time mention times and places to people like Tal or myself and you may well help set up a run that you can be involved in (without having to do most of the footwork). Or continue to use the boards as a meeting place for organizing runs. I have seen that used to great success over the past few months.

I always hope that everyone can find enjoyment in this game where they want to. Whether that be a lot of alting or running high end content. Where your interests match with mine I will try to involve you when possible. Always feel free to look me up if you want to do something or have any questions about what I am doing.

- mjdoom

[Olon97]

At GDC I saw a talk by one of the lead EQ designers talking about how MMOs keep people addicted/around. He referred a lot to psychological conditioning research done on rats. Basically it boils down to tuning the sizes and frequencies of reward distributions. You give the subject frequent small rewards to keep their attention, interspersed with less frequent medium sized rewards and very rare large rewards to keep them longing for the big payoffs.

The problem with hitting 60 in WoW is you lose the main source of your little cheese crumbs - meaningful xp each kill as a % progress towards the next level. If you have something you want to buy, a little silver each kill can kind of substitute, but if you don't have a buying agenda (most good stuff is BoP you have to roll for in groups) your game-mechanic rewards are suddenly much more infrequent. I certainly notice this as I measure my in-game accomplishments as a matter of 2-5 things (quests/items/whatever) added to my deeds each week, versus the feeling of accomplishment each kill I felt when leveling up. It becomes much easier to be distracted since with only medium and long term payoffs and no short term payoffs, us ADD types can be easily swayed to other more activities with more immediate payoffs (Jade Empire, whatever).

I've gone the route of playing on an alt when my 60 gets tedious, but that's not for everyone. It may be hard to think of yourself as equivalent to a lab rat, but ultimately, nobody will blame you for going wherever you get the most cheese. ;)

[LochnarITB]

Loch, your quote amused me actually, considering I have yet to ever set foot in Stratholme, Scholomance, Lower Blackrock Spire, Upper Blackrock Spire, Molten Core, Onyxia, or many other places/events in game at high levels.
[right][snapback]73686[/snapback][/right]

My sincere apologies. I assumed that you would get constant invitations and had been through it all. We all all know what happens when one assumes. ;) I do still maintain that much of the zerging and frantic pacing of groups is because people are doing content they have seen way too many times just to get loot. I guess I am a happy medium kind of player. I play to have fun and getting an adrenaline rush by being pushed too hard is not enjoyable, although one from good planning and pulling off a frantic fight is. I am also frustrated by playing too slow. I appreciate understanding how people are going to target stated with a simple "back right sheep", etc. and don't see that they are a hindrance to play time. I don't think the party needs to stand and stare at the next group, perhaps hoping that a couple might fall over and die for us. I make sure that my nose has been picked prior to playing so I don't need to do it while playing through with the group. :rolleyes:

[edit] to ≠ too ≠ two
[edit2] broken emote?

[LochnarITB]

I'll be needing Loch's help with this group as well. ;)
[right][snapback]73691[/snapback][/right]

Friday/Saturday nights sometimes end up being "pay attention to family" nights but I will try to remember to be there, snowballs in hand.