Some Warrior questions

[Cyath]

Since I like Warriors so much I am going to make another...^_^ Some things I need to find out first though :

1. Is there any viable dual wielding build? So far everywhere I go I hear people talk about 2hand MS, MS, MS all day...I know that probably right now MS is the way to go, but are there alternatives? (I actually know someone who uses a Arms dual wield build...)

2. If I were to go 2hand (again ^_^) which is better - Polearms or Axe? I would actually much rather go Polearms this time around, but I see some inherent disadvantages to that choice :

a) You don't get Polearms until level 40

B) Cyclonian quest doesn't give a Polearm

But are there any advantages that I don't know of? Like greater range or more weapon choices at higher levels? Seems like everyone is enamoured of the Arcanite Reaper...

[Artega]

You get Polearms at lvl 20, not lvl 40. Training costs 1g.

Polearms are inferior to Axes in every way - they have lower damage (though sometimes higher DPS), and with the sole exception of Blackhand Doomsaw, you can find a better axe for the level.

Polearm Specialization robs you of the opportunity for the sublime Improved Hamstring, while Axe Specialization does not.

Dual wielding provides effective rage generation, but inferior damage output. Use it for kicks when you're bored, but otherwise leave dualling for rogues and hunters.

[playingtokrush]

Dual wielding provides effective rage generation, but inferior damage output.  Use it for kicks when you're bored, but otherwise leave dualling for rogues and hunters.
[right][snapback]73665[/snapback][/right]

I don't think dual wielding has any worthwhile advantages for hunters, either.

[Artega]

I don't think dual wielding has any worthwhile advantages for hunters, either.
[right][snapback]73675[/snapback][/right]

I've heard about dualling weapons for increased stats, but I've also heard that you can get better stats from a single 2H weapon. Don't play a hunter, so I can't say :)

They DO get the Precision talent (for some obscene reason.) Not going to rant about that right now, no sir...

[Thawwing Light]

You CAN play a warrior any way you want. I've heard that 30 Fury/21 Arms (Sweeping Strike/Flurry) makes for a good duel wield warrior. It's not the absolute best solo/duel warrior build, which is the infamous 31 Arms/20 Fury clone (it's a clone for a good reason), but it's apparrently an effective varient.

I wouldn't *really* know, as I stubbornly am leveling as a defensively minded Sword/Shield warrior (not recommended unless you're in PvE and have a permanent group, sadly. I love this build, it's a small deity in instances, but you'll be largely worthless in PvP and you solo somewhat slowly. I say somewhat, because while each kill takes a bit of time, you can kill an even or 1+ monster solo.

If you plan to play grouped in high end instances, however, neither of these options is the 'best'. For that, you want to use a defensively oriented spec and a 1handed weapon with a shield. Only in those situations is this setup ideal, but in those situations, people want a warrior as a main tank, not as some sort of wannabe rogue melee damage dealer.

[Tal]

Dual wielding provides effective rage generation, but inferior damage output.  Use it for kicks when you're bored, but otherwise leave dualling for rogues and hunters.
[right][snapback]73665[/snapback][/right]

It is interesting that you would say this the day after a fellow warrior tried to "educate" me that I was doing it "all wrong" by going dual wield. His contention was that two hander was the ONLY way to go for the soloing warrior.

Now the background for this. The educated warrior charged his mob before I charged mine. He using a two handed axe, me using two swords - knightly longswords iirc. I finished my mob first, bandaged and attacked my second before he finished his. He had to bandage and had attacked his next just as I was reaching halfway on my mob. I pointed this out to the warrior who still maintained that 2 hander was far superior in DPS to dual wield.

So we ran a test. He killed 17 mobs in the time it took me to kill 30. We were both the same level fighting the same centaurs in the same 35ish range. He also used 3 more bandages than I did and ate 3 more "meals" of food than I did. Neither had to use a potion of any sort.

I'd thought about doing some more tests to see if dual wield was that inferior to using a 2 hander until I realized that the game was about having fun. I was still killing quickly and efficiently and was able to use many of my skills since the rage generation was so smooth. Fun is where you find it. :)

[Mavfin]

You CAN play a warrior any way you want. I've heard that 30 Fury/21 Arms (Sweeping Strike/Flurry) makes for a good duel wield warrior. It's not the absolute best solo/duel warrior build, which is the infamous 31 Arms/20 Fury clone (it's a clone for a good reason), but it's apparrently an effective varient.

I wouldn't *really* know, as I stubbornly am leveling as a defensively minded Sword/Shield warrior (not recommended unless you're in PvE and have a permanent group, sadly. I love this build, it's a small deity in instances, but you'll be largely worthless in PvP and you solo somewhat slowly. I say somewhat, because while each kill takes a bit of time, you can kill an even or 1+ monster solo.

If you plan to play grouped in high end instances, however, neither of these options is the 'best'. For that, you want to use a defensively oriented spec and a 1handed weapon with a shield. Only in those situations is this setup ideal, but in those situations, people want a warrior as a main tank, not as some sort of wannabe rogue melee damage dealer.
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I have a primarily mace/shield warrior, specced for instance/group runs as a main tank, piercing howl, etc, etc. However, just before I could do Cyclonian, my guildmaster (lovely girl she is) found and offered me Khoo's Point. It's better DPS than the Whirlwind weaps, so it's now my solo/DPS weapon, but I find that anytime I deal with 2-3 mobs solo, I go back to the shield, as I can kill 2-3 mobs easily with the shield on, as they just can't hurt me as badly. I just outlast them till execute lights up.

Now, if I end up as off-tank in a group, out comes the polearm, but that's rare. I'm a better tank than warriors 3 levels above me who aren't specced for it, and I've ended more runs in the main tank role than I've started that way. :P And, I've learned all the good aggro tricks, and groups absolutely love my piercing howl, so it's not all specs. I'll also switch to it on the last big boss after I'm #1 on his hate list to stay, for the finish.

[Kevin]

Gnolack bounces between dual wield, one hander and shield, and two hander (right now a polearm because it's better than any other 2 hander I have come across but it is usually an axe).

Dual wield is much smoother rage generation. In defensive stance not only do I get smoother rage generation I seem to get more parries. I haven't gotten enough data yet, but revenge is available as often when wielding 2 weapons as it is when using 1H and shield, discounting activations of shield block to force it up. Revenge generates more hate than the damage it does suggests it should. This helps me lock down better while also making other skills like sunder and disarm available more consistently. If I don't need the extra damage reduction of the shield my damage output in defensive stance is better with 2 weapons than one, and I have more a safety net for with the smoother rage generation.

Another advantage is your offhand still gets a chance to proc, if you have a nice enchantment on it. So you can now have 2 seperate procs you can get. Plus you get a chance at more stats, though this is pretty well balanced out.

Now of course since I put a two hander on for a cleave, overpower, execute, charge, slam if I'm off tanking, etc. and slap a 1H and shield on for bashes or wanting to get a revenge and the 40% stun chance, or swap to 2 weapons if I want to get better rage generation it doesn't really matter. I'm not tied to one style. But dual wield is viable. Heck at times a dagger is really nice becuase all those next attack skills, like concussion blow, will come a lot closer to when you really want them if you missed the time of the attack swings. I see less aggro bouncing with dual wield. Those situtions where you are tanking for someone a few levels higher than you how gets a few lucky crits and the thing runs off then you hit with the two hander 2 seconds later and it comes back then thier next hit peals it again and you get it back and lock it with a special move again. I see that a lot less with dual wield because I'm doing a more constant stream of damage.

But again to each his own. The warrior special skills certainly do favor a 2 hander and big damage ones at that. All those weapon damage skills do much better with 2 handed weapons. But it's also easy to switch out to a two hander for these skills.

I think Blizzard did a good job of not making this clear cut.

[Olon97]

The dual wield / 2H comparison becomes interesting when you start adding gear that increases % chance to hit. You can achieve 5% without too many sacrifices (purple crafted helm for 2%, two rings for 1% each, bow for 1%). After 5%, 2H and 1h/shield stop showing significant benefit (as their base miss chance has floored at 0), but dual wield continues to improve.

Just for hypotheticals, take a 58 DPS 2H (Arcanite Reaper with extra attack power folded in) vs. two 40 DPS 1H, assuming 840 post battle shout attack power (+60 DPS).

Base:
- 5% miss 2H (hitting for damage 92% of the time after dodge/parry)
- 25% miss dual wield (hitting for damage 72% of the time after dodge/parry)
- 2H DPS = 0.92 * (58+60) = 108.56 DPS
- Dual DPS = 0.72 * ((40+60) + 0.5*(40+60)) = 108 DPS
- Advantage - 2H by 0.5%


+ 1% chance to hit (4% 2H, 24% dual - keep same dodge/parry factor for simplicity)
- 2H DPS = 0.93 * (58+60) = 109.74 DPS
- Dual DPS = 0.73* (1.5*(40+60)) = 109.5 DPS
- Advantage - 2H by 0.02%

+ 5% chance to hit (0% 2H, 20% dual - still with dodge/parry fudge)
- 2H DPS = 0.97 * (58+60) = 114.46 DPS
- Dual DPS = 0.77 * (1.5*(40+60)) = 115.5 DPS
- Advantage - dual by 1%

+ 10% chance to hit (assuming no attack power loss so very hypothetical - 0% 2H, 15% dual)
- 2H DPS = 0.97 * (58+60) = 114.46 DPS
- Dual DPS = 0.82 * (1.5*(40+60)) = 123 DPS
- Advantage - dual by 7.4%

Obviously these numbers will be different based on gear / talents as well as dodge/parry/level of opposing mobs. It's easy enough to run the #s if you have your character stats in front of you, however.

[Edit: list of some gear that improves hit %...
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=26925
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=13198
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=19641
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=35972
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=27150
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=27772
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=35931
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=6448
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=15463
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=13375 ]

[edit: changed dual miss assumption to +20% - thanks playingtokrush]

[playingtokrush]

I've heard about dualling weapons for increased stats, but I've also heard that you can get better stats from a single 2H weapon.  Don't play a hunter, so I can't say :)

They DO get the Precision talent (for some obscene reason.)  Not going to rant about that right now, no sir...
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Meh. One handers almost invariably give you more stats than two one handers will. Case in point: Lord Alexander's Battle Axe (pretty much the "ultimate" hunter melee weapon).

[playingtokrush]

Base:
- 5% miss 2H (hitting for damage 92% of the time after dodge/parry)
- 20% miss dual wield (hitting for damage 77% of the time after dodge/parry)
- 2H DPS = 0.92 * (58+60) = 108.56 DPS
- Dual DPS = 0.77 * ((40+60) + 0.5*(40+60)) =  115.5 DPS
- Advantage - dual by 6.4% (offset by better instants with 2H)

Where do you get your 20% miss rate for dual wield value? I'm fairly sure Blizzard has stated that dual wield has either a 25% base miss rate or 25% increase to base miss rate (which would end up at 30%, so I doubt that's the case).

[Olon97]

Where do you get your 20% miss rate for dual wield value?  I'm fairly sure Blizzard has stated that dual wield has either a 25% base miss rate or 25% increase to base miss rate (which would end up at 30%, so I doubt that's the case).

My bad, the dual penalty is +20%, so it would be 25% base. Numbers adjusted in original post. The trend as +% hit items are added still stands.