One hand giveth

[Quark]

Latest Test Server News:

So Blizzard fixed a "bug" in Ambush and Backstab where Attack Power wasn't being used in the % bonus. Whether or not this was an actual bug, or just them changing the rules to make Daggers better, we'll never know.

Instant cries of "too powerful!" came out from cloth wearers, and probably correctly. Here is blizzard's response:

As stated in the original post, it is the case that Ambush damage was increased in this patch. We have been doing extensive internal DPS tests on the Rogue to determine whether or not these changes made too much of an increase to overall Rogue damage.

On the most part, these tests concluded that the increased damage was not too much of a damage boost, but that a small balance change needed to be made to keep critical Ambush damage within acceptable limits.

To accomplish this, in patch 1.4.0, the Lethality talent will no longer improve Ambush.

My response: :huh:

Let me get this straight. Dagger isn't currently viable versus Swords. If you ask me, the real problem is Backstab versus Sinister Strike. I'm a dagger rogue and I use SS. Why? More combo points, and I can't afford Improved Backstab if I want Improved Sap. Any rogue missing Improved Sap is not an instance rogue. Blizzard responds by buffing Backstab and Ambush, when Ambush didn't really need it to begin with. So to counteract the buff to Ambush, they kill the syngery of talents.

I deliberately chose Lethality and Improved Ambush together. Most other Ambush rogues chose these two talents for the synergy they have. So why would you, instead of changing ambush, change the great synergy two talents had? Blizzard sounds like it's trying hard to balance this, but I just think they're doing it the wrong way.

In other news, Blizzard today officially acknowledged that Rogues exist. They're still adamant that Vanish works, however, so don't get your hopes up of actually relying on it anytime soon. We'll see if anything comes of this discussion. I think it'd be particularly nice if Wound Poison weren't worthless ...

[Treesh]

Feh. No matter how they try to screw over my dagger rogues, I shall still play them. I'm stubborn that way. ;) Only one of my rogues has even trained in swords. Although considering some of the crits I can get already on ambush, I can see them trying to tone it down when they actually add in attack power. I just don't really trust them to tone it down without making it too watered down.

[Phoenix]

Latest Test Server News:

So Blizzard fixed a "bug" in Ambush and Backstab where Attack Power wasn't being used in the % bonus.  Whether or not this was an actual bug, or just them changing the rules to make Daggers better, we'll never know.

Instant cries of "too powerful!" came out from cloth wearers, and probably correctly.  Here is blizzard's response:
My response:  :huh:

Let me get this straight.  Dagger isn't currently viable versus Swords.  If you ask me, the real problem is Backstab versus Sinister Strike.  I'm a dagger rogue and I use SS.  Why?  More combo points, and I can't afford Improved Backstab if I want Improved Sap.  Any rogue missing Improved Sap is not an instance rogue.  Blizzard responds by buffing Backstab and Ambush, when Ambush didn't really need it to begin with.  So to counteract the buff to Ambush, they kill the syngery of talents.

I deliberately chose Lethality and Improved Ambush together.  Most other Ambush rogues chose these two talents for the synergy they have.  So why would you, instead of changing ambush, change the great synergy two talents had?  Blizzard sounds like it's trying hard to balance this, but I just think they're doing it the wrong way.

In other news, Blizzard today officially acknowledged that Rogues exist.  They're still adamant that Vanish works, however, so don't get your hopes up of actually relying on it anytime soon.  We'll see if anything comes of this discussion.  I think it'd be particularly nice if Wound Poison weren't worthless ...
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My rogue (damagewise) is powerful enough as it is right now, so the test realm buffs were perhaps a bit too much, but as you say, if the problem lies in Ambush, then why not nerf Ambush instead of Lethality. Talent tree synergy is so nice, breaking it for balance seems dumb when you can achieve it in other ways.

I spent the last hour or so grinding a bit in the Hatecrest cavern on the Isle of Dread. It was a thing of beauty, killing nags in a few seconds, moving on to the next, killing that in a few seconds, all while barely losing any hp. A bandage after 5-6 nagas. Guaranteed crit on the ambush, halving their hp, with a few SSs and an Eviscerate to finish them off. Damn. Never felt quite so powerful.

[Guest]

Seems like Blizz is doing it right.

Daggers were not as bad as some people had been letting on, but swords were better.

The original change did make daggers extremely powerful. It seems like this modest nerf is well conceived.

[Quark]

Daggers were not as bad as some people had been letting on, but swords were better.
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I still say it wasn't Dagger/Sword, it was Backstab/SS. The way Sinister Strike works (taking min/max instead of DPS) only exacerbates the problem to Dagger/Sword. It'll still take some convincing for me to part way with all the extra Combo Points I get with SS. And I don't know about the numbers, I don't care until I do know about them. Blizzard is killing the spirit of a build, not the viability of it.

[Guest]

Well I use Hemo with a sword and feel it is just as good over all as my old build with SS and a sword.

[stabby]

It should probably be noted that even with the removal of lethality from Ambush, theorycraft still shows dagger rogues coming out ahead this patch.

From here (post 73):

Original System on Crit:

Backstab:

((Weapon Damage * 1.8) +Attack Power Dam Bonus + 210) * 2.3

Ambush

((Weapon Damage * 3) + Attack Power Dam Bonus + 290) * 2.3 [10% greater chance to crit]


New System on Crit:

Backstab:

(((Weapon Damage + Attack Power Dam Bonus) * 1.8) + 210) * 2.3

Ambush

((Weapon Damage + Attack Power Dam Bonus) * 3) + 290) * 2 [10% greater chance to crit]


Barman Shanker: 51-95 Damage 2.00 speed

Average Damage: 73

Test ATB: 50.0 DPS

Attack Power Damage Bonus : 100




Original System (against zero AC)

Backstab:
((73*1.8) + 100 + 210) * 2.3 = 1015 Dam

Ambush:
((73*3) + 100 + 290) * 2.3 = 1401 Dam [10% greater chance to crit]


New System

Backstab:

(((73+100) * 1.8) + 210) * 2.3 = 1199

Ambush:

(((73+100) * 3) + 290) * 2 = 1618 [10% greater chance to crit]



Toxic Revenger: 27-51 Damage 1.9 speed

Average Damage: 39

Test ATB: 25 DPS

Attack Power Damage Bonus : 47.5

Original System (against zero AC)

Backstab:
((39*1.8) + 47.5 + 69) * 2.3 = 429 Dam

Ambush:
((39*3) + 47.5 + 100) * 2.3 = 608 Dam [10% greater chance to crit]


New System

Backstab:

(((39+47.5) * 1.8) + 69) * 2.3 = 517 Dam

Ambush:

(((39+47.5) * 3) + 100) * 2 = 719 [10% greater chance to crit]

[Quark]

In other news, Blizzard today officially acknowledged that Rogues exist.  They're still adamant that Vanish works, however, so don't get your hopes up of actually relying on it anytime soon.  We'll see if anything comes of this discussion.  I think it'd be particularly nice if Wound Poison weren't worthless ...
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Tyren finally responded today. The answers were:
1) Raids: dangerous, but doing the most DPS so it evens out. Agreed. Don't know if this was true for Combat Rogues back when the complaints came up, but it certainly wasn't for Dagger Rogues.
2) Vanish: Fix attempt in patch. Duh, we already knew that.
3) Eviscerate: Thinking about it.
4) Poisons and portals: Wishlist.
5) DoTs: Thinking about it.
6) Thrown: Wishlist.
7) Flare (taken from derail in Vanish): May make radius visible. Sounds good, a Flare is bright after all.


Now, I agree Rogues need help less than any other class. But dammit, they've managed to ignore everything besides Vanish. Not even a "we'll work on it after the other classes are done," it was "someday we might look at you again." How about Wound Poison getting a use besides on Baron Rivendare? How about Improved Garrote not being completely useless, let alone the skill Garrote itself? How about Detect Traps, you know, detecting something non-Hunter PvP? How about the fact that my Backstabs do more damage than many of my Eviscerates? That's supposed to be my "finishing" move.

Sadly, Eviscerate, Rupture, and Garrote being weak end game comes from the same design problems that make Mages drop in DPS end game: the numbers are hard coded, while everything else a Rogue does is based off his weapon. Even with my Lifeforce Dirk Garrote/Rupture were a bad choice against all but the highest armor mobs. Hell, the only time I've used Rupture in the past month is against one boss I had to keep targetting away from, so Rupture was the most reliable way to spend the combo points.

What about simple bugs? Like the race condition when you use Improved Sap: sometimes the client recieves the "lose stealth" after "regain stealth" meaning you are stealthed, but not showing it on screen. Kind of dangerous when you need to know right away if IS failed or not.

Not that it would go in this post, but how about changes that should be made to (*gasp*) weaken Rogues? Like making Blind unusable as a stunlock continuation. Like fixing the exploit where people are Ambushing with maces.

[Raelynn]

Now, I agree Rogues need help less than any other class.  But dammit, they've managed to ignore everything besides Vanish.  Not even a "we'll work on it after the other classes are done," it was "someday we might look at you again." 
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I hate to seem like I'm down playing your comments (because I'm not) but it's similar to the answers that warlocks got: "We're working on trying to figure out how to fix these big problems". Granted some of the solutions have been coming out so it's less meaningful now compared to before.

You made some good points though. Blind should be unusable to continue stunlock, and of course the static damage skills are a problem almost across the board, though noticably so for certain classes that weren't designed for them, like rogues.