PvP

[Jarulf]

The question that pops up then is, why have them killable at all then????
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That would be exploited if they fought back at all. They could be lured out of the area, much like the 20-30 Gadgetzan bruisers that are frequently sprinkled throughout Taneris far from town. So, then they all need leashes, or need to not react at all which could cause different problems. I think it is do-able, but it just needs to be thought through and well play tested.
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???? Perhaps I have not played the game to long. What is the problem again? The NPC just stand there, right? If you can't kill them or attack them, they will remain there. Obviously, they should not fight back at anything either. That is what there are guards for, they are civilians (if anyone need some rationalization for them not attacking).

[Quark]

By weighted I mean that a raid group of 20 lvl 60's and 20 lvl 1's would be weighted toward the 60's such that an AOE would not cause dishonor.

I know everytime I've gone PvP I haven't been grouped with everyone fighting. So some level 1 comes along, not in any group, and can ruin the other side's reputation? No thanks.

Another way to do this would be to have a level cap, meaning that say anyone under lvl 20 would not count in the calculation.[right][snapback]75091[/snapback][/right]

So then you have level 20s deliberately stepping into fights to give others dishonor, instead of level 1s. How is that any better?

[nobbie]

Perhaps I have not played the game to long. What is the problem again? The NPC just stand there, right? If you can't kill them or attack them, they will remain there. Obviously, they should not fight back at anything either. That is what there are guards for, they are civilians (if anyone need some rationalization for them not attacking).
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Jarulf, I hope that non-attackable quest and vendor NPC's, and the Flight Masters, will be the case in the next patch. But the main point of annoyance remains: the absolutely horrible graphics and loading lag when 100+ Allies run over i.e. Tarren Mill all day long - 24h per day, 7 days per week.

[Skandranon]

???? Perhaps I have not played the game to long. What is the problem again? The NPC just stand there, right? If you can't kill them or attack them, they will remain there. Obviously, they should not fight back at anything either. That is what there are guards for, they are civilians (if anyone need some rationalization for them not attacking).
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Civilian NPCs aggro and attack just like any other NPC, which makes it difficult to avoid killing them when they join a guard rush (that, usually, they summoned themselves).

[Jarulf]

Civilian NPCs aggro and attack just like any other NPC, which makes it difficult to avoid killing them when they join a guard rush (that, usually, they summoned themselves).
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Then that is the problem to fix :)

[Icebird]

Battlegrounds have been promised for the next patch. It would probably be fair to reevaluate the impact of PvP on the PvE servers when they go up.

For the Alliance I think Tarren Mill has the prime reputation as the place to go if you want to pick a fight. Once the battlegrounds are out, people will have an alternative location to go when they want to fight another players right this minute.

I actually flagged up and went to Tarren Mill looking to score some honour points. At the time I was there was an army of green names, and only a handful of red names - many of which were low level characters that woudln't be particularly satisfhying to kill. After a few minutes looking for targets, i decided I didn't really want a me vs. Deathguard battle and left.

Chris

[Mirajj]

If it wasn't bad before, this little tidbit from Blizz's main page ought to make a real nice mess out of things...

"THE PRIZES:

* 100 First Prizes: 6800 series hi-end nVidia Graphics card and a Kingston 256 MB Datastick
* 300 Second Prizes: One free month of World of Warcraft gametime "

Basically, a PvP contest. The higher your PvP honor ranking, the more tickets you get to use in a draw for those prizes. Wonderful...that ought to have a little fun with the lag problems they are already creating.

[nobbie]

If it wasn't bad before, this little tidbit from Blizz's main page ought to make a real nice mess out of things...
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Thanks God, Europeans cannot win! :lol:

No purchase necessary to enter or win. Must be an adult in your country of citizenship, or over the age of 13 with your parent or guardian's permission, and a resident of the U.S.A., Canada, Australia or New Zealand to enter. Void where prohibited. Directors, officers and employees of Sponsor, its parent, and any of their respective affiliate companies, subsidiaries, agents, professional advisors, advertising and promotional agencies, and immediate families of each are not eligible to win any prizes. Odds of winning dependent upon the number of entries and PvP Honor rankings achieved. All applicable federal, state and local laws and regulations apply. Alternate "mail in" method of entry available. Blizzard Entertainment is not be responsible for lost, late, illegible, incomplete, damaged, postage due or misdirected entries or mail.

[Artega]

If it wasn't bad before, this little tidbit from Blizz's main page ought to make a real nice mess out of things...

"THE PRIZES:

    * 100 First Prizes: 6800 series hi-end nVidia Graphics card and a Kingston 256 MB Datastick
    * 300 Second Prizes: One free month of World of Warcraft gametime "

Basically, a PvP contest. The higher your PvP honor ranking, the more tickets you get to  use in a draw for those prizes. Wonderful...that ought to have a little fun with the lag problems they are already creating.
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Two words: HOT DAMN!

Get real-world prizes for doing something I enjoy already? Sign me up!

[Quark]

Couldn't they wait until Battlegrounds at least? :wacko:

[Jarulf]

If it wasn't bad before, this little tidbit from Blizz's main page ought to make a real nice mess out of things...

"THE PRIZES:

    * 100 First Prizes: 6800 series hi-end nVidia Graphics card and a Kingston 256 MB Datastick
    * 300 Second Prizes: One free month of World of Warcraft gametime "

Basically, a PvP contest. The higher your PvP honor ranking, the more tickets you get to  use in a draw for those prizes. Wonderful...that ought to have a little fun with the lag problems they are already creating.
[right][snapback]75189[/snapback][/right]

Hmm, in regarrd to the possible "gambling" issues with selling in game items in another thread (in Lounge forum), we here at least have a complete clear case. Sure, one get higher changce with skill but it is still a normal lottery in the end.

By the way, how can they have 100 first proces??? Or are there 100 servers for the USA? But them, how can they have 300(!!) second prices??? Blizz logic?

[Darian]

Hmm, in regarrd to the possible  "gambling" issues with selling in game items in another thread (in Lounge forum), we here at least have a complete clear case. Sure, one get higher changce with skill but it is still a normal lottery in the end.

By the way, how can they have 100 first proces??? Or are there 100 servers for the USA? But them, how can they have 300(!!) second prices??? Blizz logic?
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That's standard terminology for prize giveaways, at least in the US. Sometimes you'll have a "grand prize," which is the best prize available, followed by "first prize," "second prize," so on. You could have 40 "grand prizes," 200 "first prizes," and 3800 "second prizes" in a giveaway; what matters is that all 40 are the same, all 200 are the same, all 3800 are the same.

[Walkiry]

If it wasn't bad before, this little tidbit from Blizz's main page ought to make a real nice mess out of things...

"THE PRIZES:

    * 100 First Prizes: 6800 series hi-end nVidia Graphics card and a Kingston 256 MB Datastick
    * 300 Second Prizes: One free month of World of Warcraft gametime "

Basically, a PvP contest. The higher your PvP honor ranking, the more tickets you get to  use in a draw for those prizes. Wonderful...that ought to have a little fun with the lag problems they are already creating.
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The funniest thing I've read about this contest was in this thread:

i dont mind the ganking as im on a pvp server it was what i asked for, but now i will be farmed for both honor and video cards

That made me chuckle quite a bit ^_^

[Jarulf]

That's standard terminology for prize giveaways, at least in the US. [right][snapback]75224[/snapback][/right]

Ohh, OK, didn't knew that.

[savaughn]

Trivial civilian NPCs such as quest givers and vendors will now give dishonor points to players that prey upon them. We haven't decided upon a specific penalty but it will be enough that the majority of players will not wish to engage in combat with those NPCs.

What does that mean again: "the majority of players"? All this half-hearted talk again. Anyone who kills such an NPC should get his account banned! ;)
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You may not like it, but the simple fact of the matter is that Blizzard considers PvP a majority component of the end game content - even on PvE servers. Once you've done the high level raid areas a couple times and have gotten bored of alts, PvP is the only thing left in the game to keep you around. So either Blizz accepts that people will quit their subscriptions after 8 months or they put an opt-in PvP onto every server to try and keep these people playing. And, no, saying "those people should go to PvP servers" is not a legitimate response.

On a PvE server, you have explicitly picked a server where you have to be PROVOKED into PvP. As such, there must be a mechanism for this provocation or the large chunk of end game content is gone. Blizz will never ban players for killing quest NPCs nor will they make them un-attackable. This is, quite simply, the right thing for them to do long term, despite a handful of players not liking it right now.

[Bolty]

You may not like it, but the simple fact of the matter is that Blizzard considers PvP a majority component of the end game content - even on PvE servers.  Once you've done the high level raid areas a couple times and have gotten bored of alts, PvP is the only thing left in the game to keep you around.  So either Blizz accepts that people will quit their subscriptions after 8 months or they put an opt-in PvP onto every server to try and keep these people playing.  And, no, saying "those people should go to PvP servers" is not a legitimate response.[right][snapback]75253[/snapback][/right]

savaughn has this dead to rights. From a business perspective, PvP is an absolute necessity for Blizzard to maintain subscribership in the future. Since it is impossible to continue to add content quickly enough for hardcore players to eat up, players will ultimately have to drive the content themselves. Thus, pitting the players directly against each other makes sense.

You may wish to play on a completely non-PvP server, but to Blizzard you would then be a guaranteed loss. Once you've accomplished whatever goal you've set for yourself, whether it be a level 60 character, or multiple ones, you are done. You will either then quit immediately, or complain that there's not content additions quickly enough for you and quit.

Blizzard is betting that the number of people upset enough at the inconveniences and quitting will not outweigh the number of people who would quit after seeing all the content. I think their bet is a good one.

PvP is and always will be a part of the game, that's how Blizzard designed it. Not every game can be for everybody. Playing Guild Wars for its PvE content would be really silly, because the entire game is designed for PvP. Still, I'm sure there will be some people who buy it and then complain that they don't want to PvP.

I think in WoW's case it's a symptom of the still-ongoing confusion for many players of what the designations "PvP", "PvE", and "RP" mean. Perusing the Blizzard forums shows that there are still quite a few players who have no clue whatsoever that PvP is even possible on PvE servers. The server types should have been labeled "Full PvP", "Consensual PvP", and "Consensual PvP with Some Extra Rules that Nobody Quite Understands but We'll Call Role-Playing". :)

Ultimately, you pick PvE servers so that you can PvP when you want to. To me, it's mostly about being able to get to 60 without being ganked to holy hell. But that doesn't mean you can just ignore it in a bubble of your own. I sympathize with those who want no PvP whatsoever, but this game won't provide that to you. When Battlegrounds is released, I think the attacks on enemy towns and NPCs will once again reduce to the pre-honor system levels, and most players on PvE servers will flock to the new way of testing their mettle.

Still, I encourage you to at least try PvP sometime, even if that's not until level 60. I enjoy picking fights from time to time, and look forward to the Battlegrounds. And until you've tried playing a Priest at the top of the Great Lift, using Mind Control to fling anyone who attacks you off the cliff to their deaths, you just haven't lived. :) Good times.

-Bolty

[lfd]

Ultimately, you pick PvE servers so that you can PvP when you want to.  To me, it's mostly about being able to get to 60 without being ganked to holy hell.  But that doesn't mean you can just ignore it in a bubble of your own.[right][snapback]75259[/snapback][/right]

No, we have to put up with torrents of tedious /spit, /chicken etc. until people finally learn that they're not going to provoke a reaction and just leave us alone to continue questing (unless they've just killed the npc we were trying to hand a quest into, and are waiting for it to respawn so they can kill it again). For me, I don't think I've ever had an evenly-levelled player do this; it's always been a ?? player, or group of such. /chickening me because I won't flag when I'm surrounded by several much higher levels annoys me *the wrong way*. It just makes me want to find an inn and log out.

That said, there was a small group of mid-30s attacking Razor Hill guards (and only guards) the other night. That was fun, because there was no emoted provocation, no spoiling of the game for the low-levels in the zone, and no absurd over-levelled ganking/zerging going on.

And until you've tried playing a Priest at the top of the Great Lift, using Mind Control to fling anyone who attacks you off the cliff to their deaths, you just haven't lived.  :)[right][snapback]75259[/snapback][/right]

Yes, that _is_ fun, isn't it? Freewind post is great to defend for that reason alone. Watching the level 60 rogue creep up behind the night elf who's too busy /flirt-ing with you to pay attention to his surroundings is also amusing. The PvP side of a PvE server CAN be good fun, but it's all too often ruined by actions of the other side who would be far better suited to a roleplaying server; it seems a lot of the PvPers on PvE servers forget that most people are there to have fun, not to be irritated.

[Quark]

I think in WoW's case it's a symptom of the still-ongoing confusion for many players of what the designations "PvP", "PvE", and "RP" mean.  Perusing the Blizzard forums shows that there are still quite a few players who have no clue whatsoever that PvP is even possible on PvE servers.  The server types should have been labeled "Full PvP", "Consensual PvP", and "Consensual PvP with Some Extra Rules that Nobody Quite Understands but We'll Call Role-Playing".  :)
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This is why they're called "Normal" servers, not "PvE".

[Tal]

No, we have to put up with torrents of tedious /spit, /chicken etc. until people finally learn that they're not going to provoke a reaction and just leave us alone to continue questing (unless they've just killed the npc we were trying to hand a quest into, and are waiting for it to respawn so they can kill it again).  For me, I don't think I've ever had an evenly-levelled player do this; it's always been a ?? player, or group of such.  /chickening me because I won't flag when I'm surrounded by several much higher levels annoys me *the wrong way*.  It just makes me want to find an inn and log out.
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Last night while waiting for everyone to assemble for BRD I tried to help a Basin player and a random hunter who was flagged and being attacked by 3 level 40ish players. I foolishly figured that by evening the odds we could have some good PvP action. Unfortunately a level ?? rogue unstealthed and took me out in 2 hits, and the Basiner and random player followed shortly thereafter. I chuckled and chalked it up to what happens when Dishonor is not in the game. Upon waiting out my flag (as our party was assembling) I rezz'd and was greeted by the rogue who proceeded to taunt, chicken, spit, lick etc to get me to consent to another two hit combo. Sorry - I PvP to have fun, not suicide. ;)

It saddened me that this horde group had to wank a good opportunity for 3 v 3 PvP action by bringing in the rogue. Too many folks bring a gun to a knife fight in WoW. :P

[Kevin]

Your point is completely valid. There are way to many guns at knife fights. And this isn't a Horde vs Alliance thing however much it starts out as one.

However, being on the 30 side of the the 70/30 alliance horde servers which both Terenas and Stormrage are I cheer any horde who kills any Alliance in the Barrens by any means fair and fun or not right now. I'm not playing on Terenas right now because I'm tired of there not being a Crossroads. I was involved in PvP up there where we were trying to defend and well at L43 Marn was one of the biggest there a few 60's who were online did come to try and help but 3 60's vs 15 plus several other 40 and 50 supports isn't enough. I counted at least 15 ?? alliance and I think there were more that were coming in at the end. Another time I didn't flag myself I counted at least 10 ?? aliance in X-roads and this worked no better because the position of so many of the NPC's there means they are dead and you don't have to worry about too many guards mucking with you either. The town is flattened all the time and many horde players are frustrated by this.

I have never seen Westfall, Lakeshore, or Auberdine in this state, ever. I've Elwyn flattened once. I've seen Brill flattened at least 5 times, I've seen Razorhill and Bloodhoof flattened several times. It's still very hard for horde on these servers to pick a fair fight or a fight where they have the advantage so they are going to take advantage of people when they can. Had you wanted to, even ignoring guild members I bet you could have gotten 5 to 10 L60's to respond and help you by putting someting in General. The Horde on these servers might have been able to get another 5 if they were lucky.

It's just another issue with current PvP on PvE servers you have a side that is pretty much constantly bitter due to the population difference and what this can mean. When one side has twice as many bored 60's they are going to start more problems and have an easier time griefing and imbalancing. If there were a 70/30 horde pop server I bet Westfall and Lakeshire would always have dead NPC's too and the Alliance would take any chance they could get to bring a gun out in a knife fight. This isn't a horde vs alliance thing. This is a pop imbalance thing. It's good the PvP servers are actually pretty evenly matched in most cases (60/40 is probably close enough). The big imbalances are PvE and RP servers. So fair and fun PvP gets harder to find because of this as well. Even dishonor wouldn't help all of this, bored and frustrated people would do some of it anyway.

I'm looking foward to battlegrounds. I hope they do have stuff where sub 60's can actually do and have fun doing it without needing constant protection from the 60's on their side. Heck I hope there are some level caps in some of the battlegrounds (since there will be multiples) so you can't be over 40 in this one and that if one side has twenty 40's that want in and the other only has 5 that it only happens if the under leveled side agrees to let it happen. I can't really tell you how to make PvP more balanced and fun for everyone, if I could I probably would be working for some game company as a designer. :) I do hope that things get better.