If You Were a Casual Gamer...

[Bolty]

I was asked this recently by someone. "I'm a pretty casual gamer. What should I go with if I wanted one Alliance and one Horde character to play only?"

There's no doubt in my mind that there are difficulty levels inherent in certain classes. About midway through beta I came to the conclusion that, even though I hadn't fully played every class, the Warlock was probably the most difficult class in the game to play well. Management of mana, health, your pet, your DoTs, Soul Shards, the trading between hit points and mana, and the fact that you lack any real "escape" spell combine to make it a challenging (and rewarding) experience. For someone new to MMORPGs or into fairly casual play, Warlocks aren't it.

We could probably have a full debate over what's the most challenging class to play well, but what do you say would be the easiest? No blanket statements - you have to back it up with reasons. It's not that every casual gamer out there isn't looking for a challenge - I know that's not true - it's just that if you don't have the time to peruse forums to discuss strategies, examine possible talent builds, and only have a few hours a week to play, what class is best? What's the most intuitive class to learn to play with as little "extra crap" as possible?

PALADIN:
I'm by no means a Paladin expert, so I'll just throw in here that getting free mounts is a BIG plus to a gamer without the time or means to accumulate enough money to buy one. That alone gives Paladins a big boost for casual play.

HUNTER:
I'm thinking this would be an extremely poor choice for casual play, since the level of in-game documentation on how to manage pets, keep them happy, and learn new pet abilities is ridiculously low. Add to that the complexities of even managing pets to begin with (separate set of commands on your character), and I'd rule Hunters out for casual play.

MAGES:
Mages have one of the easier Talent tree configurations to understand - duh, Fire, Frost, Arcane! I like Fire! I'll put points in the Fire tree! But are cloth casters a good choice for a casual gamer? Play is more difficult when managing mana comes into the equation, and when a huge part of gameplay is keeping a distance between you and your target. Mages would force a learning curve on a casual player that, once grasped, would be understood - but obtaining that grasp could be difficult for those new to MMORPGs.

PRIESTS:
Bonus - it's never hard to find a group when you're a Priest. This is huge to a casual gamer that wants to group a lot, since they won't have to wait long to find a group to join. I used to whip out my watch, type "Level X Priest LFG (some goal)" in General Chat, and see how many seconds would pass before the invite. Fun. :) I would say that Priests are more casual-friendly than Mages, if grouping is the goal. Mages are more self-sufficient, with better crowd control, free drinks/food, and quick portals after level 20. This lends Mages more to the soloist casual gamer if they want a caster.

WARLOCKS:
I already noted Warlocks above; I think they're the worst choice for a casual gamer.

DRUIDS:
Not a Druid expert, but the versatility of a Druid must be accounted for. Once shapeshifting has been understood, a casual gamer can enjoy playing different roles. However, this also makes it harder for someone without a lot of time to master the different roles. Switch over to Bear Form, great! What's this Rage thing? Huh? Wha? Energy on my cat? What's that? What happens when I switch back? So I have to manage multiple action bars for all my different forms?

ROGUES:
Get behind the enemy. Smack it around and keep smacking it around until it dies. Pure killing, pure DPS. Stealth style possible if you want to play that way. Easy to learn, very intuitive. You're not responsible for healing or crowd control - you're there to kill. At low levels, no real ability to handle adds, so that represents the class' learning curve. In my opinion, the most casual-friendly class out there. When you're a Rogue, you have to pay attention to your partymates less than any other class, which is perfect for a casual player.

WARRIOR:
Ability to take a beating a huge plus. Inability to heal oneself in any way a big minus. At low levels, a good choice. Problem is, at higher levels and in groups, Warriors are expected to be the party leaders, and this is a tough role for a casual gamer who does not have the time to learn complex party mechanics and how all the other classes work. While solo play is manageable pretty well, it's the requirements put on Warriors in groups that make it a poor choice for a casual gamer, in my opinion. I know I expect a *lot* from Warriors in my parties, and I've seen Warriors who don't know what they're doing take a serious tongue lashing in pickup groups.

SHAMAN:
I know too little about this class to comment on it in terms of difficulty, other than it might be difficult for a casual player to figure out their role in a party when playing a Shaman.



My class choice: Rogue. I think casual players and newbies would enjoy the Rogue more than any other class, if they had no preference between the type of character (caster, tough guy, etc).


Professions? There are six choices:
Mining/Blacksmithing
Mining/Engineering
Skinning/Leatherworking
Tailoring/Enchanting
Herbalism/Alchemy
Two gathering professions, ignoring creation altogether

Tailoring/Enchanting is out, because Enchanting is far too expensive for a casual gamer. Okay, if they really wanted Tailoring they could pick Skinning with it to get leather for bags (and because that way they get all their mats from creature kills, which is easier than hunting for herb/mining nodes - this is big, actually). Blacksmithing and Leatherworking just don't seem worth it for casual play, since you can buy their creations from the auction house. Herbalism/Alchemy seems good for making their own potions, and Mining/Engineering is a good pick because Engineers are the only ones who can use most of the items Engineers make.

So this would be my 1 Alliance/1 Horde suggestion for the casual gamer:
1) Alliance Night Elf Rogue (extra stealth, +dodge bonus) - herbalist/alchemist - for solo play
2) Horde Undead Priest (Will of Forsaken) - mining/engineering - for group fun

Since I haven't met anyone on this board yet who said "Dang Bolty, you are completely right" - debate! :)

-Bolty

[Catlyn]

I was asked this recently by someone.  "I'm a pretty casual gamer.  What should I go with if I wanted one Alliance and one Horde character to play only?"

HUNTER:
I'm thinking this would be an extremely poor choice for casual play, since the level of in-game documentation on how to manage pets, keep them happy, and learn new pet abilities is ridiculously low.  Add to that the complexities of even managing pets to begin with (separate set of commands on your character), and I'd rule Hunters out for casual play.

Since I haven't met anyone on this board yet who said "Dang Bolty, you are completely right" - debate!  :)

-Bolty
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Dang, Bolty, you are completely wrong... about Hunters at least... in my biased and immodest opinion.

Perhaps there's a bit of a learning curve in the very beginning about training and keeping a pet, but once you learn it, it pretty much applies to 50 levels... Other than that, the Hunter is easy to play... I think more than any other class, a Hunter can be successful with 'inefficient' play... it's the most forgiving of mistakes. You can deal damage without using mana... you can fight for a very long time... your melee is dead simple (autostrike, raptor strike, mongoose strike, and wing clip). You've to autoshot and a handfull of different situational shots... You can be effective not ever using half the abilities that you've got available.

More than 90% of hunter encounters are Hunter's Mark, Pet Attack, Aimed Shot/Concussive Shot/XXX Sting let the autoshot take over and wait for the beastie to die... Pet Mend if your firend is getting beat up...

Pretty much everything else is (unrequired) optimization.

[Artega]

Human Paladin and Orc or Undead Rogue.

Shaman don't have any real "Oh, #$%&" escape mechanisms (well, War Stomp+Improved Ghost Wolf, but it isn't a sure thing thanks to perma-daze), and they require more thought towards aggro (from healing spells, especially) later in the game. They ARE very fun, however.

It's mostly accepted that playing Alliance is basically playing "easy mode", and that playing a Paladin is basically playing with cheats enabled. I've played one to 18, and unless you do something supremely stupid (which a "casual" gamer might do, of course), it's nigh impossible to die in PvE combat. If you get in over your head, bubble and run, or bubble and heal. You have a ranged stun, you can wear the heaviest armors (mail up to 40 and plate past 40), you can use almost all weapons (almost all melee weapons), and you get a free mount at Level 40 and a reduced-cost mount at Level 60. Add Engineering to the mix for ranged attack options (not counting Holy Shock), and you can't lose. Pallies can play backup healer in parties, and their heals don't cause much (if any) aggro, so the player wouldn't even need to worry about aggro management.

Of course, if you ask me, a MMOG is not a game meant for "casual" gamers, anyway. And even if (s)he is a "casual" gamer now, I'd be willing to wager that (s)he won't be a "casual" gamer for long after starting WoW :)

[nobbie]

Interesting topic, because I've asked the same, or a similar question myself last week: "Which two solo characters (1 Horde, 1 Alliance) of your currently 6 RP characters (Undead Warrior, Undead Warlock, Tauren Druid, Orc Shaman, Dwarf Hunter, Night Elf Druid) would you keep if you're forced to limit your playing time significantly?"

After some thinking I picked the following two characters:

- Undead Warlock with Tailoring/Enchanting for Horde
- Night Elf Druid with Herbalism/Alchemy for Alliance

For the Horde, my favorite was quickly picked: I *love* the Undead race and their playing regions, and as a big Diablo II Necromancer fan, the summoning Warlock with his finicky skill management was a natural choice. Tailoring/Enchanting was also a natural choice because the Warlock can wear the partly excellent (enchanted) cloth armor, use the bags etc. and can make some very good extra cash by enchanting i.e. metal for miners (enchanted Thorium) or leather for leatherworkers (enchanted Leather). The summoning Warlock is my premier "passive" character choice.

For the Alliance: I love Hunters for their excellent soloing (and PvP) capability, and I love the very funny Dwarven race even more, but I picked the Druid. The reason is the flexibility (Caster, Bear, Cat) which not only gets you an interesting mix of 3 or even 4 different classes (Mage/Priest, Warrior, Rogue) but also a great advantage for solo play, because the separation of the sources Mana/Rage/Energy allows the Druid to survive fights that other classes would not, i.e. the fights against Elite Monsters of the same level. If Mana as Caster/Healer is up, switch to Bear and use Rage or switch to Cat and use Energy, and if Life as Bear or Cat gets low, switch back and heal yourself with a refreshed Mana pool. Herbalism/Alchemy is the natural choice for me for the Druid because the extra buffs and potions make the already durable Druid even better. The casting, healing and meleeing Druid is my premier "active" character choice.


As server type, there's only one option for me: Roleplaying (RP/PvE). The actual horrors with PvP seem to point already in the direction what the future may hold here. There's currently NO way that I will create a character on a dedicated PvP server.

[Skandranon]

It's mostly accepted that playing Alliance is basically playing "easy mode", and that playing a Paladin is basically playing with cheats enabled.  I've played one to 18, and unless you do something supremely stupid (which a "casual" gamer might do, of course), it's nigh impossible to die in PvE combat.  If you get in over your head, bubble and run, or bubble and heal.  You have a ranged stun, you can wear the heaviest armors (mail up to 40 and plate past 40), you can use almost all weapons (almost all melee weapons), and you get a free mount at Level 40 and a reduced-cost mount at Level 60.  Add Engineering to the mix for ranged attack options (not counting Holy Shock), and you can't lose.  Pallies can play backup healer in parties, and their heals don't cause much (if any) aggro, so the player wouldn't even need to worry about aggro management.
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I agree. No class owns the first 40 levels of the game like the Paladin does. During this period of time, you can basically ignore the (elite) tag on quests; elite just means that it takes more time. Paladins also are very uncomplicated to play, as well. Auras require no attention, and combat consists mainly of activating a seal and waiting for the other guy to die. You can seal, judge, seal, but that's about it. When your health gets low, heal.

Of course, after level 40 paladin damage tails off rapidly and there's no doubt that the class is incredibly gimped in PvP and endgame play. But we're talking casual players, here.

Which is one other thing. I am making this recommendation from the perspective of a non-casual player, which can affect my viewpoint in ways that I can't determine. Tris on Stormrage was having a lot of issues playing his paladin in the early game, and my complete inability to understand his problems frustrated me a lot. There may be issues with playing an early-game paladin that none of us can comprehend, simply because we aren't casual players. Just something to keep in mind.

[Sabra]

Oh oh ... here comes a possible thread highjack, but I just have to ask...

Artega, this statement facinates me ...

It's mostly accepted that playing Alliance is basically playing "easy mode"

Why is that? Are the two factions really that different?

[nobbie]

Why is that? Are the two factions really that different?
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If you're playing on a PvP server, or are interested in PvP on a RP or PvE server, then the Alliance is the "safe" choice, because this faction dominates almost all servers by a wide margin. If however, you want interesting and challenging PvP with partly suicidal disadvantages, there's only one choice: the Horde ;)

[mjdoom]

I think it's only fair to make comments on the two classes I've played a lot:

Priest: The priest is probably actually a pretty good choice. Sure, priests generally kill slowly (I've never really used shadow much so I'm used to killing as a disc/holy priest) but they are pretty durable. In 1v1 combat the priest will come out ahead of any non-elite similar level mobs. The only trick is learning how to manage your aggro so that combat is 1v1. Adds mean a bubble and run and hope you can get out of range before they kill you. Skills such as shield, renew and mind soothe can allow you to get around some more hazardous areas sometimes as well.

Also as mentioned it is fairly easy to find groups as a priest if you want/need them. Anyone could always use a healer to duo with as it reduces downtime for any other class if they have a healer along (with the possible exception of a mage). Being a solid priest for instancing requires practice and a larger learning curve but I assume the casual player will not be doing more difficult instancing (like 5-manning Scholo/Strat/LBRS).

Warrior: The warrior can be a fickle beast. If your equipment is underlevelled you will feel it more than many other classes. This is more likely to happen for a casual player. Also, the lack of healing means that you can usually tell pretty quickly if a battle is winnable or not. If it looks hairy you will be doing a lot of running and the only thing you have going for you as you run away is a higher armor value so you can hopefully take more hits. As a warrior you have to know your limits and learn to hightail it the other way ASAP if a situation is beyond those limits. If you don't then you die.

That said, if you have anyone to help you find a priest to play with. Thanks to their high armor a warrior's survivability is incredible with a healer to back them up. If you can learn any basic aggro strategy to keep aggro off your healing friend then the situations you can handle are incredible. The difference in how I can play my warrior with a priest tagging along as opposed to soloing is incredible. When soloing I pick my fights and I'm always ready to run. With one healer I can charge entire enemy camps and just lock them all down while my healer keeps me alive. Shortly thereafter all the mobs are dead and we are still standing.

For larger scale partying and instancing as long as you can understand how to hold aggro and pull effectively (you can learn this by soloing as if you pull poorly when soloing you will be running or dying a lot) you can be effective. Every tank has to learn how to pull a particular instance on the fly and each one has their troubles the first time. The warrior does not HAVE to be the party leader, good warriors probably will be but that doesn't mean you have to be. The real trick to playing a warrior in instances is simply to understand that your role is target dummy and damage sponge instead of dps. As long as you can understand this and play to that end you will be ok.

Still, of the two classes I think a priest is more solo friendly as long as you have the patience to deal with the slow kill speed. Also, in many places short of the endgame you can be a suboptimal healer and still be ok. As long as you remember to heal when necessary (and don't just ignore your duty) you can be ok. I've rarely met a priest that outright forgets that they are a healer (whereas I have met druids who seem to ignore healing others at times, even in groups where they are the only healing class around).

From a naive perspective it seems to me like Rogues would indeed be a solid choice for soloing as you pretty much are set up to stealth to pick your target and then blast it until it drops. You have minimal downtime thanks to no mana. Stealth allows you to do many item find quests more easily (or killing particular mobs without clearing the trash around them) and your dps is phenomenal. Also, if you are mostly soloing you don't have to worry about handling aggro which can be one of the biggest tricks to an endgame rogue. Just unload on a mob and move on...

- mjdoom

[Tal]

Shaman don't have any real "Oh, #$%&" escape mechanisms (well, War Stomp+Improved Ghost Wolf, but it isn't a sure thing thanks to perma-daze), and they require more thought towards aggro (from healing spells, especially) later in the game.  They ARE very fun, however.[right][snapback]75414[/snapback][/right]

Yeah not like they have frost shock or an earthbind totem to throw down. Those Shaman really get the shaft when it comes to PvP. :)

It's mostly accepted that playing Alliance is basically playing "easy mode", and that playing a Paladin is basically playing with cheats enabled.  [right][snapback]75414[/snapback][/right]

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. ;)

I've played one to 18, and unless you do something supremely stupid (which a "casual" gamer might do, of course), it's nigh impossible to die in PvE combat.  If you get in over your head, bubble and run, or bubble and heal.  You have a ranged stun, you can wear the heaviest armors (mail up to 40 and plate past 40), you can use almost all weapons (almost all melee weapons), [right][snapback]75414[/snapback][/right]

Playing a character to 18 is hardly enough levels to get an idea of how powerful or unpowerful a class is.

and you get a free mount at Level 40 and a reduced-cost mount at Level 60.  [right][snapback]75414[/snapback][/right]

Correction - you get a quested mount at 40 that hasn't been implemented yet. The last I heard is that the effort required and monetary expense would equate to 90 gold. The "reduced cost" epic is turning out on most servers to be about the same or more as an epic mount. Not to mention that the battle involved to get the mount isn't a matter of showing up and getting the horse.

I would tend to agree that Paladins are one of the better choices for the casual gamer with hunters as a close second. Both are very forgiving of player mistakes and are able to fill multiple roles in a group setting. You can somewhat get away with not purchasing every skill on both. :)

On the horde side I would say that Shaman are the easiest to play, are remarkably hardy for leather wearers with decent healing and very good dps. I've pulled things off with a Shaman that I would have struggled with as a paladin or a warrior. :)

[Gurnsey]

...I'm a pretty casual gamer...[right][snapback]75409[/snapback][/right]

Hmmm.

Your argument for the choice of classes for the casual gamer seems to take the stance that a casual gamer is not quick at picking stuff up or managing several things at once.

I'd define a good class for a casual gamer (and maybe your view is different since you probably know the casual gamer in question) as:

1) Soloable. My definition of a casual gamer would be one that would want to play for a bit occasionally. Having to group might scare off the casual gamer, who might not want to commit the time (or face the possibility of dealing with idiotic party members) forming, playing with, and waiting for a group. A class should allow for someone to log on and fell like they've made some progress, even if only a short time is available.

Winners: Druid - the complications that are introduced are at level 10 and 20, with minimal skills at the start and more learned along the way. Plenty of time for a casual gamer to get into the swing of things! Travel form at 30 is later than Shaman's at 20 (but can be done at a run and non-interruptable), and Hunter's (but faster, and no Daze), helps save the massive cash needed for a mount. Variety of playstyles mean that levelling up one character can provide experiences for a spellcaster/healer, a tank, and a dps/stealth machine.

Hunter - as someone else said - Aimed-concussive-sting-arcane-pingpingping. Pet documentation is low, but is not THAT bad. A little help on how to feed and train and turn on Growl would be enough to make the pet useful right off the bat, nothing else to it.

Paladin - I've heard. Never played one myself. Heals, armor, melee power.

2) Groupable. Even the casual gamer has a few hours to spend every once in a while. No class really doesn't find groups well (at least at the lower levels) that I can think of, so this is not really an issue. Learning how to play your class in a group is a different matter.

Priests - easy to tell what your role is, but hard to initially play this role well. Early aggro management of warriors and others make the priest's job tough at lower levels, and very reliant on the group. This could be frustrating if the group is bad, but hey, we've never heard of that!

Warrior - group role is again easy, but as mentioned, the warrior is often relied on to lead the group.

Druid - Malleability means that you can take whatever role is needed or you are comfortable with in the group - tank, dps, or spellcaster/healer.

Other classes - no ideas right now. :P

3) Sustainable on less-than-optimal equipment. A casual gamer will probably not want to spend hours on a raid or farming equipment.

Warriors - heavily dependant on armor and weapon. Ouch.

Rogues - to a degeree. Good daggers are often quite a bit more expensive than comparable other weapons in my experience.

Druid - animal 'weapon' upgrades with level and time spent in normal form tends to be spellcasting and not smacking: no need to get an expensive weapon upgrade all the time! Has an armor spell, as well as bear form to increase armor: no need to upgrade armor at every opportunity!

In summary, I think a Druid is an excellent choice for a casual gamer! A Skinning/Leatherworking druid is even better! Leatherworking produces quite decent armor for a Druid and can make money with a little work.

Just my opinion.

[Quark]

I'm going to add a wrinkle here: speed. Casual gamers are less likely to deal with classes they percieve as slow (boring?)

PALADIN:
I'm by no means a Paladin expert, so I'll just throw in here that getting free mounts is a BIG plus to a gamer without the time or means to accumulate enough money to buy one.  That alone gives Paladins a big boost for casual play.

As Tal said, I wouldn't bank on that much longer. The shields/protections and heals are nice, and make for a near-indestructable class. However, paladins kill slow. They kill slow with little participation from the user (as far as I've gotten, at least). Seal, Judge, Seal, swing, swing, swing, swing ... oh, I should heal! ... swing, swing. With maybe a Hammer of Justice thrown in.

HUNTER:
I'm thinking this would be an extremely poor choice for casual play, since the level of in-game documentation on how to manage pets, keep them happy, and learn new pet abilities is ridiculously low.  Add to that the complexities of even managing pets to begin with (separate set of commands on your character), and I'd rule Hunters out for casual play.

I'll be selfish and say don't recommend hunters to a casual player. Why? Bad hunters kill parties. Bad hunters kill parties alot. If this casual player steps into an instance, not quite sure how to handle the pet, it'll aggravate everyone, including the hunter. The casual player won't have as much of a chance to meet with forgiving, educating, people. So the party loses out, and in thier frustration make for a situation where the Hunter doesn't learn.

MAGES:
Mages have one of the easier Talent tree configurations to understand - duh, Fire, Frost, Arcane!  I like Fire!  I'll put points in the Fire tree!  But are cloth casters a good choice for a casual gamer?  Play is more difficult when managing mana comes into the equation, and when a huge part of gameplay is keeping a distance between you and your target.  Mages would force a learning curve on a casual player that, once grasped, would be understood - but obtaining that grasp could be difficult for those new to MMORPGs.

If they're ready to *kill kill kill* then *sit and drink*, Mages are a pretty good choice. I'd recommend Fire specifically for the more casual player, it's less to think about during battle than Frost. Going off speed, it's a very quick battle, and individual battles are safer than Rogues I'd say. But when sitting you do nothing at all ...

ROGUES:
Get behind the enemy.  Smack it around and keep smacking it around until it dies.  Pure killing, pure DPS.  Stealth style possible if you want to play that way.  Easy to learn, very intuitive.  You're not responsible for healing or crowd control - you're there to kill.  At low levels, no real ability to handle adds, so that represents the class' learning curve.  In my opinion, the most casual-friendly class out there.  When you're a Rogue, you have to pay attention to your partymates less than any other class, which is perfect for a casual player.

Best, easily. There is no competition, in my eyes, for what class a casual gamer would enjoy. It's easy to learn, it's quick and deadly, and it's involving. Just make sure to recommend First Aid!

WARRIOR:
Ability to take a beating a huge plus.  Inability to heal oneself in any way a big minus.  At low levels, a good choice.  Problem is, at higher levels and in groups, Warriors are expected to be the party leaders, and this is a tough role for a casual gamer who does not have the time to learn complex party mechanics and how all the other classes work.  While solo play is manageable pretty well, it's the requirements put on Warriors in groups that make it a poor choice for a casual gamer, in my opinion.  I know I expect a *lot* from Warriors in my parties, and I've seen Warriors who don't know what they're doing take a serious tongue lashing in pickup groups.

A bad Warrior grouped is like a bad Hunter grouped ... wipes and frustration. Solo is fine, but then they step into an instance and know nothing about aggro, not fun. Once again, it's a matter of finding a group willing to let the warrior learn. I don't see that happening as easily.

[Treesh]

Yeah not like they have frost shock or an earthbind totem to throw down. Those Shaman really get the shaft when it comes to PvP. :)
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And when frost shock is resisted and you're away from the earthbind totem or it was killed, you're screwed. There's a cooldown on earthbind. Oh, wait, now there's a druid or someone who rooted/snared you! Grounding totem won't clear that until another pulse. Tal, listen to your own advice about playing a character to low levels and deciding how powerful or underpowered they are. I really do think you are wrong about this one. My shaman has had a lot of bad situation and you really can't run away well, PvE or PvP. Frost shock and earthbind are not reliable escape tools like oh, mages or rogues have. We do have more escapes than warriors or priests though. I'll give you that. Most of the time you have a better chance of staying and fighting and not dying than you do of running away and not dying. And about your "shaman are easier to solo with than a paladin or a warrior" comment. At lower levels, as your shaman is, we really do great things. Get up higher levels and it gets tougher. Much tougher. Yes, you get mail and a shield as a shaman, but you've already found out that tanking as a pally is harder than as a warrior. How do you think us shaman feel if we have to try to be a main tank? Ain't gonna happen! If you want to actually be able to use your totems, you need intellect on your gear. Trying to get intellect and stamina on mail is tough, especially if you don't go looking on thott or allakhazam to see where to get that fanciest bit of armor you can have (which casual gamers aren't going to do). If you want to melee, you need some strength too. Spirit would be nice to reduce the downtime as well when you get into those really nasty situations and actually have to throw down all 4 totems at once and have your mana for healing the rest of the party. I'm sorry tal, I love you, but you're completely wrong about shamans. Edit: At least about shamans higher up, you're wrong. Early game we do kick a lot of butt easily.

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. ;)[right][snapback]75433[/snapback][/right]

I wouldn't call Alliance "easy mode", but overall, most things are slightly better setup for Alliance than for horde. I'll take the rogue as an example. Starting rogues for alliance either have to sneak past critters and pickpocket or sneak past critters and lockpick. Horde must kill things higher levels than they are for their quests. The poisons quest? Soloable at 20 for alliance thanks to pickpocketing and stealth and good positioning. Soloable at maybe around 25 for horde because you must kill level 25 undead pairs of critters as part of the quest. No sap for you! On PvE servers (before the honor system came in), very few starting towns were leveled frequently for the alliance. Horde had to put up with the crossroads (a major questing town) being raided very frequently. Bloodhoof on Terenas was also hit very frequently for some reason. The Eastern Kingdoms has many more quests (even for Horde) available, but until you get honored with the Forsaken (which start as NEUTRAL to the other horde races), you're going to be either spending more money on training and such if you quest over there or you're going to be flying home much more frequently than Alliance does. If you quest over on Kalimdor, the quest lines aren't setup as well once you get past the gankfest that is the Barrens. Much travel for fewer quests and fewer rewards. After playing both horde and alliance, alliance really does have an easier time with some exceptions here and there.

[JapJaan]

One thing that I think is important to keep in mind is the extent to which mistakes and sub-optimal play characterize the casual gaming experience. Mistakes, such as bad pulls and failures to manage adds, tend to have more serious consequences to a player in the short term. Sub-optimal play, such as failing to use bandages or having sub-level equipment, tends to slow down a player's progress in the long term.

In a comparison of paladins and hunters (the only two classes for which I feel qualified to discuss), I think that paladins come out significantly ahead in terms of both mistakes and sub-optimal play. The fact that some people feel that hunters are easy to play might be an indication of just how far ahead paladins are from the field in terms of ease and forgivingness.

Some factors that favor paladins over hunters:

1. None of a paladin's saves (the two shields and lay on hand) involve a chance of not working on use. A level 30 paladin can be attacked by a level 62 elite and have a reasonable chance of surviving the encounter (in terms of getting away, not in terms of winning the fight). In contrast, all of a hunter's saves could potentially fail on use. Disengage and feign death can both be resisted. Transferring aggro to the pet (and running) requires growl not to be resisted.

2. Paladins have less chance of being stuck with sub-level equipment than hunters. I generally do not think that sub-level armor is ever an issue in most circumstances. There are enough pieces of armor so that the benefits are distributed. Having a sub-level helmet or belt just is not going to make that much difference. However, having sub-level weapon makes a tremendous amount of difference in survivability. (A dead mob is the best form of defense.) Paladins have a choice of swords, maces and axes for fighting and my experience is that it is just not that difficult to have at all times at least some weapon within reasonable level range from those three categories. In contrast, hunters rely primarily on guns, bows and x-bows for damage-dealing, and those weapons are much more difficult to maintain on-level. Moreover, keeping a hunter's primary attack optimized, through use of scopes and better ammo, require keeping up with both mining and engineering. I would maintain that a casual gamer would have a much easier time finding a suitable sword, axe or mace from drops than finding a suitable gun, bow or x-bow while maintaining advancement in gather/trade skills.

3. An inefficiently played paladin will differ less from an efficiently played Paladin than an inefficient played hunter will differ from an efficiently played hunter. Forget blessing of might and seal of crusader? Your dps is less, but probably not enough so that you would notice. In contrast, for a hunter to forget to put up hunter's mark, keep a sting on a mob and set a fire trap before combat starts makes a much bigger difference in terms of the time to take the mob down.

There might be other factors in a comparison between paladins and hunters, but I am just not remembering them now. I have to say that playing a paladin can really teach some bad habits in WoW. For example, I played my paladin for a long time without ever using food, pots or bandages, which is negligent at best and I am embarrassed to admit it.

Perhaps strangely, I would argue that paladins are more difficult to play in groups than hunters, but that is the subject of another thread.

[Rinnhart]

Human Paladin and Orc or Undead Rogue.

Shaman don't have any real "Oh, #$%&" escape mechanisms (well, War Stomp+Improved Ghost Wolf, but it isn't a sure thing thanks to perma-daze), and they require more thought towards aggro (from healing spells, especially) later in the game.  They ARE very fun, however.

Tal covered this.

It's mostly accepted that playing Alliance is basically playing "easy mode", and that playing a Paladin is basically playing with cheats enabled.  I've played one to 18, and unless you do something supremely stupid (which a "casual" gamer might do, of course), it's nigh impossible to die in PvE combat.

It's impossible to die in PvE combat with any class unless you do something stupid. This is not a difficult game.

If you get in over your head, bubble and run, or bubble and heal.  You have a ranged stun,

Artega, get over Hammer of Justice. It's got a ten meter range (awesome!) and a minute refresh (sweet!). It's the class' only universal interrupt, and should be held in reserve for that use.

you can wear the heaviest armors (mail up to 40 and plate past 40), you can use almost all weapons (almost all melee weapons), and you get a free mount at Level 40 and a reduced-cost mount at Level 60.  Add Engineering to the mix for ranged attack options (not counting Holy Shock), and you can't lose.

Engineering on a paladin is not an instant win button. The bombs all have significant refreshes and the really decent ones that would actually provide reasonable damage are so rare it's not an ability you can count on to provide a ranged attack.

All that said, the utility added by engineering is enough that'd I'd recommend any casual player consider it.

Pallies can play backup healer in parties, and their heals don't cause much (if any) aggro, so the player wouldn't even need to worry about aggro management.

Of course, if you ask me, a MMOG is not a game meant for "casual" gamers, anyway.  And even if (s)he is a "casual" gamer now, I'd be willing to wager that (s)he won't be a "casual" gamer for long after starting WoW :)
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Agreed.



Paladins are a simple class to play, but their low DPS means they're slow at leveling and limited to support at the endgame and in PvP.
They can solo a great deal of lower level elite content.
They have a hard time soloing group situations due to a lack of AE damage and crowd control.
Paladins will lose most 1 on 1 pvp, but they augment dps classes well.
Raw durability means they're easy to explore with, if that's your thing.

Rogues and warriors are more fun in melee and priests are more forgiving so long as the mobs aren't 3 levels higher than you.

[Tal]

And when frost shock is resisted and you're away from the earthbind totem or it was killed, you're screwed.  There's a cooldown on earthbind.  Oh, wait, now there's a druid or someone who rooted/snared you!  Grounding totem won't clear that until another pulse.  Tal, listen to your own advice about playing a character to low levels and deciding how powerful or underpowered they are.  I really do think you are wrong about this one.  My shaman has had a lot of bad situation and you really can't run away well, PvE or PvP.  Frost shock and earthbind are not reliable escape tools like oh, mages or rogues have.  We do have more escapes than warriors or priests though.  I'll give you that.  Most of the time you have a better chance of staying and fighting and not dying than you do of running away and not dying.  And about your "shaman are easier to solo with than a paladin or a warrior" comment.  At lower levels, as your shaman is, we really do great things.  Get up higher levels and it gets tougher.  Much tougher.  Yes, you get mail and a shield as a shaman, but you've already found out that tanking as a pally is harder than as a warrior.  How do you think us shaman feel if we have to try to be a main tank?  Ain't gonna happen!  If you want to actually be able to use your totems, you need intellect on your gear.  Trying to get intellect and stamina on mail is tough, especially if you don't go looking on thott or allakhazam to see where to get that fanciest bit of armor you can have (which casual gamers aren't going to do).  If you want to melee, you need some strength too.  Spirit would be nice to reduce the downtime as well when you get into those really nasty situations and actually have to throw down all 4 totems at once and have your mana for healing the rest of the party.  I'm sorry tal, I love you, but you're completely wrong about shamans.  Edit: At least about shamans higher up, you're wrong.  Early game we do kick a lot of butt easily.[right][snapback]75454[/snapback][/right]

Shields aren't a guaranteed escape either as the earliest one lasts 6 seconds and the longest lasting one is 12 seconds at level 50. We're also subject to snares but are a bit better off in being able to use seal of freedom to get out. Usually by that point we've run out of immunity though. We have more reliable escape options but to say that the Shaman doesn't have any is fallacy. As far as the Shaman at high levels goes I will take your word on it - I haven't played a Shaman as high as you have.

I wouldn't call Alliance "easy mode", but overall,  most things are slightly better setup for Alliance than for horde.  I'll take the rogue as an example.  Starting rogues for alliance either have to sneak past critters and pickpocket or sneak past critters and lockpick.  Horde must kill things higher levels than they are for their quests.  The poisons quest?  Soloable at 20 for alliance thanks to pickpocketing and stealth and good positioning.  Soloable at maybe around 25 for horde because you must kill level 25 undead pairs of critters as part of the quest.  No sap for you!  On PvE servers (before the honor system came in), very few starting towns were leveled frequently for the alliance.  Horde had to put up with the crossroads (a major questing town) being raided very frequently.  Bloodhoof on Terenas was also hit very frequently for some reason.  The Eastern Kingdoms has many more quests (even for Horde) available, but until you get honored with the Forsaken (which start as NEUTRAL to the other horde races), you're going to be either spending more money on training and such if you quest over there or you're going to be flying home much more frequently than Alliance does.  If you quest over on Kalimdor, the quest lines aren't setup as well once you get past the gankfest that is the Barrens.  Much travel for fewer quests and fewer rewards.  After playing both horde and alliance, alliance really does have an easier time with some exceptions here and there.
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I dunno I played an undead up through 40, granted not under honor system but I can't say that Alliance is "easy mode" in comparison. Just my opinion though.

[Kevin]

My thoughts, this is all for PvE as I figure a casual gamer will be more into that than PvP. I'm also thinking a casual player will spend a lot of time under L50 so what you can do end game is mostly irrelevant. A lot of the lounge thought is geared towards that in general it seems so I'm trying to think of life up to 40 to 50 as the primary concern how the character grows is probably more important than how the character plays once grown up.

Warrior: This is the class I have the most experience with and for me it has been the must frustrating class to solo with. You have more downtime (you need food and first aid when solo like no other) depending on your spec your solo killing speed can be pretty miserable too. You are heavily equipment dependent and while smithing can keep your armor mostly up to snuff, smithing doesn't do jack for weapons until the higher levels or unless you get lucky and find some of the drop only recipies at level appropriate times. Alechemy or engineering would probably help your soloing a lot. Your only healing is pots and bandages and food. Your only escape is turtle down (def stance shield on) and run to mitigate the damge. Getting a group is relatively easy though. With a healer behind you, you become very powerful as you can just sit there do a few AoE attention grabbers and slowly kill the whole mess of mobs. I've played a lot of warrior with a priest behind him (Gnolack and Aleri) and it is a very different story. We still don't kill quick (def spec and holy spec) but we can surive a lot and safely run from pretty much anything. So fine if you are getting into pick-up groups a lot, tough choice for pure solo. Not a bad casual choice though.

Paladin: Up until L31 at least I have never played anything easier to solo. The hard shell, self healing and bubbles make it easier to keep going and easier to get away from bad situations than a warrior. For me the names of the seals and what they did was not intuitive. I had to keep looking at what it did and then what it did judged. The name wouldn't make it obvious for me. It will take some study to figure out what the best way to seal -> judged -> seal would be, but you don't have to do that to kill and survive you can just put up a seal and go. Pulling is the biggest problem and could be the biggest learning curve as you don't have a ranged pull unless facing undead or until L40 if you spec that way or from tradeskills. Killing speed, up to the 30's at least, is very much on par, if not better than a warriors. Still have equipment dependencies just like the warrior but for me they weren't as harsh simply because you could self heal and the DPS at those levels isn't really any different, actually the paladin was generally better DPS because the seals would do more than the warriors rage abilities as far as damage goes. Main tanking instances as a paly is not as simple, groups may not be as willing to take you, which to me is stupid becuase I love having a paly as an off tank the few times I've had one. The aura the blessings the ability to prevent anything from running, the additional healing (since an off tank pally won't be using nearly the mana a MT paly would) I just love having one around. I'm not sure that post 40 would be as much fun and I've read that things start to get worse the older they get and you have to play better and better to just try and stay level. I'm not there yet though. Good overall choice will work well for grouping and solo play.

Hunter: Hunters are very solo friendly and you can not use their skills and still do quite well. The learning curve to figure out pets isn't really that steep and if someone points you to a couple of websites you will know where to find the beasts to learn the skills to teach your pet. I think even a casual player who only has a couple of characters would be able to get it figured out pretty quickly. As far as how to use the pet you can pretty much leave it on defensive and not think about it for solo play and be mostly just fine. It won't be the best way to do it, but it will work. If you can't control it well in an instance you can put it away and still be an decent DPS dealer. But it isn't hard to learn how to control the pet well. You can get away with crappy equipment and still be effective. Wing clip and/or your pet being sacrificed to the hold the mobs can get you out of many hairy situations. Solo is easy, finding a party is more difficult than some classes. A very solid choice for a casual player though as I don't think the pet will be a big obstacle and you should still be able to get groups.

Warlock: Very fun class to play, but not a casual friendly one. Blizzard even says this class is for more experienced players. I agree there and see no need to elaborate further.

Priest: It isn't hard to solo with this class even if you don't go shadow, though it can be slow to solo. I haven't really run a priest solo past L20 but I've seen Treesh do some solo work with Aleri and it really doesn't change much. You pull with a smite, hit it with mind blast as it runs it, pain it (instant cast so the last spell to hit it with on the run) swing at it and renew or bubble while you beat on it with additional healing and refresh of pain as needed. Renew has always been better than the bubble for me takes less mana and I come out healthier in most cases. You won't have problems finding a party either. Bubble and renewing while running away works in most cases and is usually more reliable than the warriors turtle up and go. Not a bad choice for a casual player though the slower kill speed if they like to solo a lot could be frustrating.

Mage: Bit of a learning curve as you will have a fair bit of spells at your disposal and it can take a bit to realize that some of them are for the same purpose. Good escape skills (frost nova and blink can get you out of a lot). If you go alchemy you have pots you can drink to keep you up longer. Learning to nova and quick bandage can keep you alive pretty well too. Kill speed is good. Solo equipment isn't that important and what to choose (more int please) is pretty simple. Finding a party isn't hard. Not a bad choice and if you want to sling spells a lot probably the best choice.

Shaman: Totems can be a bit tricky to figure out for some. Melee skills are alright. No way to garauntee a self heal like a paladin bubble or 5 talent points and concentration aura though, unless you go 21 points into restoration (L30), and that can hurt at times. Some decent escape skills and good pull skills. No more durable than a hunter though and less durable than a druid when taking a beating. Equipment choices can be tougher or you need to use multi sets because you can want stats for melee and casting, it's easy to burn out your mana quickly and have none left for a heal if you need it. A good solo class, probably the easiest to get to the late teens, but they get harder after that. A solid party class if you can figure out your roll but they are trickier to play than a paladin I think. I don't see them as highly casual friendly but I don't see them being totally frustrating if you go that route either.

Druid: Very fun class to play. You can play the whole game effectively without ever shapeshifting. You can solo pretty much just like a priest does with the added ability to root things and continue to cast if you don't want to stand there and beat on it under your renew. The overhead of hotbar management how to play a pseudo rogue and a pseudo warrior might not make it the best choice for a casual gamer, or they might make it the best choice because you could get to see a lot of different aspects of the game. This is a zero downtime solo class when you figure it out. If you are low on mana you don't need to drink just go bear or cat form (depends on how hard the enemies hit for optimal choice) and have a fight or two while you regen. Sure you can't use pots or items while shifted but you should be able to get through a fight or two in feral without needing to heal. Then pop out rejuv to heal and do a couple more fights if the bar isn't full enough. When you get good you can shift in combat for healing or rooting or what have you and up your effectiveness even more. Groups shouldn't be hard to find though with a pick-up group you will most likely be locked in one roll. If I'm the only healer around as a druid I usually will sacrifice some of the fun I could have with shifting to other forms because of worries about messing up an "oh crap moment". If there is someone else around who can heal even just a little so that you have time to get back to caster form to heal, a good group would be wise to let the druid change rolls as needed. Druid equipment choices get hard if you don't want to carry multiple sets and even if you do multi set, when to change (since you can't change in combat) becomes another complication. A very fun class but not casual friendly in my mind.

Rogue: A very straightfoward class. You sneak-up you do damage as fast as you can and you move on. You have solid escape skills and with a high base dodge are pretty tough. There can be some issues in the teens if you get in places where you have to deal with multiple mobs but that just teaches you to run better or adds to downtime some. Learning your instance roll can be frustrating as well since if you aren't paying attention can get you and your party killed. A solid choice for a casual player.


Professions.
As has been said, most of the tradeskills in this game are relatively pointless at lower levels. I also see a casual player wanting the crafting to work along with growing up, something more integral to the character or something that is more or less ignored. I also don't see a casual player being able to afford to outfit themselves from the auction house unless they make that a goal of theirs. So crafting will be to help outfit themselves not really as a means to make a money. This all goes out the window if you have a casual player who likes to play the market or is money focused. I just don't see most of them that way.

Smithing can be helpful for a hardshell because the armors will generally be better than what you find get as a reward, the weapons generally won't be. You'll need to know to hold every gem you see for the recipies that you don't know how to make and you will suffer some space problems from it but it isn't bad.

Leatherworking can be helpful for druids, rogues, hunters and shaman as much of the armor you make will be better than what you find or get as a reward. You can chew a bit of space in the field but generally don't need to stockpile anything. Most of what you bring back to town can be turned immediately into a finished product to vendor sell or wear.

Alchemy and engineering can be helpful for everyone. But they both can chew up space which can be a concern if you don't have someone feeding you bags.

Tailoring is nice for making bags but most of the cloth wearers aren't highly dependent on equipment so while it will help for that it won't help as much and if you take skinning with it will be a source of income for you even if you just sell to vendors.

Enchanting isn't for the casual. If you need to buy your own bags, if you don't know how to use crafting to make make money, etc the game keeps your purse pretty empty through L40 and enchanting just makes that worse.

Now all that being said, you can take two gathering skills and simply sell at the AH, if you don't mind doing that and then use the money to buy equipment. That will actually work quite well too. Heck I made a skinner miner just for that purpose and he made enough money doing that to help with Gnolack's and Etheramwen's mounts significantly. Of course I didn't buy any equipment for him since I had high level feeders so he had more income that you would if you bought stuff.

[Treesh]

Shields aren't a guaranteed escape either as the earliest one lasts 6 seconds and the longest lasting one is 12 seconds at level 50. We're also subject to snares but are a bit better off in being able to use seal of freedom to get out. Usually by that point we've run out of immunity though. We have more reliable escape options but to say that the Shaman doesn't have any is fallacy.
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Two things. I never claimed that pallies had better means of escape in any of my posts and I also never claimed that the shaman doesn't have any reliable escape methods. I said they aren't as reliable as rogue and mage escape methods (ignoring vanish rank 2 bug that blizzard won't recognize. Rank 1 really works well though).

I dunno I played an undead up through 40, granted not under honor system but I can't say that Alliance is "easy mode" in comparison. Just my opinion though.[right][snapback]75458[/snapback][/right]

And as I said, I would never actually call alliance "easy mode" myself. Some things horde have better (\o/ for the Kalimdor flight paths! Easier bear quest for the druids), some things alliance has better (easy quests for the rogues, more attention to detail to the Eastern Kingdoms and alliance quests there). For me, alliance has always been easier (with the exception of gnome rogues in redridge ;) ) than horde. And I have played through all the starting areas with all races. After the starting areas, the race differences within the faction don't matter much in terms of questing rather than racial traits. Maybe life really, really changes for the horde past 45 and makes life easier for them than for alliance, but I doubt it. It's still probably about the same with Alliance having a slight edge. And that slight edge is basically just the difference in populations. More alliance means more business and competition at the auction houses.

[savaughn]

I was asked this recently by someone.  "I'm a pretty casual gamer.  What should I go with if I wanted one Alliance and one Horde character to play only?"
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Obviously, this is just my opinion, but I think there are three "best" choices for casual gamers: rogues, hunters and paladins.

I think rogues win, hands down. Almost everyone I know who has an alt has a rogue. Rogues are strong across the board. Casual gamers can get themselves in trouble easily and vanish eventually provides the best escape mechanism in the game. Rogues have the following hurdles for casual gamers:
- very button pressy - not good for folks who get overexcited during a combat
- timing oriented
- lots of options which can be confusing for a casual player
- leveling open locks is not straightforward
- improving daggers are critical to the success of the class - point the gamer at the Basin dagger guide
- suffer from positioning issues which can be problematic on dial-up (must be behind target, facing target, within melee range, etc.)

Hunters are the best solo PvE class in the game, a powerful recommendation in and of itself. Autoshot + pet means that the hunter is the most lag tolerant class in the game - in heavy lag on dial-up it is not uncommon for the hunter to come out with a dead opponent lying at their feet, something untrue of other classes. Easy to play, the pet is a big plus for most folks, and not as gear dependent as other classes, the hunter makes a great class for the casual gamer with one large exception. Hunter pet abilities (aggressive, passive, defensive, attack, stay, and the complex topic of training pet abilities) are not intuitive. The learning curve is not steep but the game entirely fails to explain the pet. For the casual hunter to be successful, someone must explain how all of this works to them. Hunters have the following hurdles for casual gamers:
- how the pet works
- how the pet works
- how the pet works

Paladins are great for the casual gamer. The abilities are fairly straightforward, although it make take a few levels to figure out how the shields work. The ability to self heal makes them quite independent and while they have far fewer combat options than a warrior, this makes them more robust and simpler for the casual gamer. Paladins have the following hurdles for casual gamers:
- learning how to use the various shields and lay of hands to sustain combat
- heavily gear dependent melee class
- one of the slowest classes in the game, pushed back to foot speed until lvl 40
- party play

I should explain this last one. A hunter or rogue has a fairly obvious role in party play that is not too far different from solo play. Tanking and healing are completely different than solo play, however, and these are the roles available to the paladin. A party can much more easily survive a bad rogue or bad hunter than a bad main tank or main healer. Learning how to play in parties well can be a steep learning curve for any casual gamer no matter what the class, but these roles are more complex requiring an in-depth understanding of how aggro works.

As for professions, leatherworking, blacksmithing, and alchemy are all straightforward and fun. Enchanting can be complex and engineering has many components that can't be collected by a miner - more so than other classes. Tailoring is out due to it not pairing as obviously with anything but Enchanting.

Choice of race is by and large immaterial. Night elf wisp speed is a big plus for the casual gamer, however.

[Treesh]

- leveling open locks is not straightforward
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This has been taken care of much better in the patch. Now the rogue trainers have a chat option where you can ask where your character needs to go in order to skill up their lockpicking and there are many more locked boxes in the world so you don't have to whore yourself out in a major town to open boxes or pickpocket higher level critters until your mind has been numbed to oblivion. It used to be relatively difficult to raise up your lockpicking past 100, but now it's much easier and newbie friendly. :)

I still agree that rogue is a good starting choice though for casual gamers.

[Phoenix]

It's mostly accepted that playing Alliance is basically playing "easy mode", and that playing a Paladin is basically playing with cheats enabled.

"mostly accepted" by Horde players, that is. :rolleyes: I'll grant you the poison quest, the massive level disparity of Hillsbrad, and the Crossroads thing (although when I played it was raided only twice ever in all the time I spent there. Granted I'm on a PvP server so maybe I saw less raids overall), but all the other complaints I've heard are pretty insignificant. Both factions have its pros and cons. Horde has better racial traits, better flight paths (quick zeppelin ride to UC from Orgrimmar, compared to gryphon, wait for boat, hippo, portal to get to Darnassus from Ironforge fro example) more instances, and many of the instances are in their areas, to mention a few.

As for Paladins, well their shields isn't a magic get-away-free-card. It saves you a couple of seconds, yeah, but they don't magically make the enemy go away. They just follow you while shielded and wait for it to drop. Hammer of Justice barely qualifies as "ranged" at the just-barely-more-than-melee-distance it has. And the epic mount ends up costing more than 900, according to all paladins I've talked to that have it, and they have to do a quest for it too. (Which I think is a plus, but it's definitely harder than going to a vendor and buying one)

Paladins are durable, of course, but they have by far the slowest killing speed. That's the trade-off. I vastly prefer the other way around.

Which leads to the rogue. Definitely the best choice for a casual gamer. By far the most fun class, too. Stealth is cool and useful for bypassing monsters when you don't want to fight all the time (and avoiding would-be PvPers if your'e on a PvP server and don't feel like fighting), it's fairly stress-free in groups, and you have nice escape abilities like Sprint, Evasion and (when it works) Vanish.

Profession-wise, definitely Herbalism/Alchemy. Buffs and extra healing is always nice. Also a simple stress-free thing.

So, in a nutshell: Dang Bolty, you're completely right.