PvP: Hunter v Rogue

[Brista]

I'm having a great time with my and a friend's new character, a Hunter, but I'm finding a tactical issue in pvp.

If I get attacked by a rogue I find it very difficult to do anything effective. I've tested the following tactics:

1) Melee back with pet helping. I've lost when I've done this, I'm reasonably satisfied that just about any similarly levelled rogue can rip me to shreds if I try this

2) Wing clip, set pet on him, Aspect of the Monkey and run. I'm not getting away when I do this. I think part of the issue is that I spend 80% of the game in Aspect of the Cheetah so usually I begin the fight dazed. I don't think any of them have used Sprint, they havent even needed to

Now if I could just get some distance I could probably kite but I'm having great trouble getting out of melee range

I can see a gear based solution: potion of swiftness and two talent-based solutions: Improved Wing Clip (20% chance to Immobilise) and Scatter Shot (the description of which implies it can be used point blank). Can other Hunters comment on how they deal with being surprised by a rogue? Is there anyone who can reliably win?

[Rinnhart]

I'm having a great time with my and a friend's new character, a Hunter, but I'm finding a tactical issue in pvp.

If I get attacked by a rogue I find it very difficult to do anything effective. I've tested the following tactics:

1) Melee back with pet helping. I've lost when I've done this, I'm reasonably satisfied that just about any similarly levelled rogue can rip me to shreds if I try this

2) Wing clip, set pet on him, Aspect of the Monkey and run. I'm not getting away when I do this. I think part of the issue is that I spend 80% of the game in Aspect of the Cheetah so usually I begin the fight dazed. I don't think any of them have used Sprint, they havent even needed to

Now if I could just get some distance I could probably kite but I'm having great trouble getting out of melee range

I can see a gear based solution: potion of swiftness and two talent-based solutions: Improved Wing Clip (20% chance to Immobilise) and Scatter Shot (the description of which implies it can be used point blank). Can other Hunters comment on how they deal with being surprised by a rogue? Is there anyone who can reliably win?
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On paper, a hunter should have no trouble with rogues given the incredible variety of abilities they have to counter stealth and control melee (scatter shot can be used in melee, by the way).

Problem is: rogues hit really, really hard.

My suggestion? Do everything you can to get out of reach. Keep monkey on because any dodged attack is better than risking becoming dazed. Scatter shot is extremely useful, wing clip is as well. There's no silver bullet, though, so really it's a matter of how lucky you are and how good a player the rogue is.

[Gregorius]

My suggestion? Do everything you can to get out of reach. Keep monkey on because any dodged attack is better than risking becoming dazed. Scatter shot is extremely useful, wing clip is as well.  There's no silver bullet, though, so really it's a matter of how lucky you are and how good a player the rogue is.
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My brother plays a rogue, and I've seen him PvP hunters a lot (he usually loses). When you're fighting it seems to me like Aspect of the Cheetah is a liability, particularly when they hit so fast. What I see hunters doing against my brother's rogue is (they have Hawk on I think):
Wing Clip
Pet attack/use skill (whatever it is, I don't know much about hunters)
Move back
Concussive shot
Serpent Sting
etc.

Now the corollary is I don't consider my brother to be a great rogue player so I have no idea what they'd do against really good rogues (but your odds of finding one are pretty low).

[MongoJerry]

I think part of the issue is that I spend 80% of the game in Aspect of the Cheetah so usually I begin the fight dazed.

Bad idea. Get out of that habit. Aspect of the Hawk and Aspect of the Monkey should be used more often. Aspect of the Cheetah should be turned on when traveling or chasing someone.

two talent-based solutions: Improved Wing Clip (20% chance to Immobilise) and Scatter Shot (the description of which implies it can be used point blank). Can other Hunters comment on how they deal with being surprised by a rogue? Is there anyone who can reliably win?

It depends on what kind of situation you're talking about. If you're talking about vs solo gankers or something, then what I always did was place a freezing trap at my feet before sending my pet out to tank a mob I'm going to take down. I caught so many rogues that way in the beta with my hunter. You can also use scatter shot and wing clip -- although if the rogues are smart they'll use poisons to slow you down as well.

The main way to deal with rogues as a hunter, though, is to detect them first. If you're talking about a Hillsbrad situation where you know there are rogues about, then freezing traps, flares, and Detect Hidden all help a lot. Hunters are an anti-rogue force if they set their minds to it.

[Gregorius]

It depends on what kind of situation you're talking about.  If you're talking about vs solo gankers or something, then what I always did was place a freezing trap at my feet before sending my pet out to tank a mob I'm going to take down.  I caught so many rogues that way in the beta with my hunter.  You can also use scatter shot and wing clip -- although if the rogues are smart they'll use poisons to slow you down as well.
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Is there any reason, aside from stupidity and the fact that rogues don't meet traps enough to think of it, that Rogues don't use Detect Trap more?

[Quark]

Is there any reason, aside from stupidity and the fact that rogues don't meet traps enough to think of it, that Rogues don't use Detect Trap more?
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Because it's only useful versus Hunters, and for one quest total in the game. If I trip over a Hunter too many times in Battlegrounds I'll learn my lesson, but how is a Rogue going to learn to use that skill if he almost never sees a trap?

[Gregorius]

Because it's only useful versus Hunters, and for one quest total in the game.  If I trip over a Hunter too many times in Battlegrounds I'll learn my lesson, but how is a Rogue going to learn to use that skill if he almost never sees a trap?
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I suppose I probably shouldn't point fingers...considering how often I forget to cast Thorns on myself. :whistling:

[Wogan]

Because it's only useful versus Hunters, and for one quest total in the game.  If I trip over a Hunter too many times in Battlegrounds I'll learn my lesson, but how is a Rogue going to learn to use that skill if he almost never sees a trap?
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On the other hand, detect traps is instant cast, takes no energy, has no cooldown and lasts 3 minutes. In a PvP situation with Hunters about, there is no excuse to not have it on constantly - though I wouldn't refresh it while stealthed ;)
Few Hunters use traps effectively anyway though, I know even when I remember to place one in PvP it's difficult to lure anyone into it. I usually put one behind me and hope a rogue will stumble into it.

[KiloVictor]

On the other hand, detect traps is instant cast, takes no energy, has no cooldown and lasts 3 minutes. In a PvP situation with Hunters about, there is no excuse to not have it on constantly - though I wouldn't refresh it while stealthed ;)
Few Hunters use traps effectively anyway though, I know even when I remember to place one in PvP it's difficult to lure anyone into it. I usually put one behind me and hope a rogue will stumble into it.
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The Hunter I play with drops a trap everytime he stops moving. Sitting to drink? Sit on a trap. Stopping to bandage? Smack down a trap.

Nothing makes his day like seeing a rogue materialize from nowhere into a flash-frozen target dummy. Then it's Aspect of the Cheetah to get to range, aimed shot, arcane shot, concussive shot, feign death, reset trap.... lather, rinse, repeat.

He does far better than 50-50 against them, unless they catch him totally unawares. Of course this is a PvE server, so he doesn't have to contend with a lot of ganking attempts while he's mid-fight with a mob. That would be a bit tricker.

Kv

Edited to add: the one trick that you need in your arsenal for those fights is the jumpturn arcane shot. From watching my brother, it's just a matter of running out to range, jumping up and right-clicking below your toon to get a quick auto-turn, and cranking off an instant-cast arcane shot before continuing to kite. Makes a big difference in keeping the target at bay.

[KiloVictor]

I can see a gear based solution: potion of swiftness and two talent-based solutions: Improved Wing Clip (20% chance to Immobilise) and Scatter Shot (the description of which implies it can be used point blank). Can other Hunters comment on how they deal with being surprised by a rogue? Is there anyone who can reliably win?
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Just to confirm, Scatter Shot is useable at zero range. And it sucks when you get hit with it PvP. :(

There's a post on the WoW Hunter forums about how a 31 Beast Mastery build with a bunch of points in Survival (?) for improved Wing Clip makes a great anti-rogue melee hunter build. Sorry I can't find it right now, but you might want to look for it. The poster was claiming that the health return from the top BM skills meant that outlasting a rogue was much easier, and the improved pet damage meant that the rogue (or other PCs) couldn't just ignore the pet anymore. Oh, and a high attack speed on the pet was a must, so I believe they were going with cats.

Disclaimer: I know next to nothing about hunters. I play with a pretty good one, and I was reading the boards prior to rolling one, but I've certainly never tried these tricks myself, so I have no idea how well it works.

Kv

[Brista]

Coming back to this topic several days later and after a respec I have to say that changing my talents has made a huge difference to my effectiveness here

I used to have 31 points in Marksmanship. Now I have 31 in Beast mastery which gives me a faster hitting pet and Spirit Bond.

If I get hit by surprise I aspect of the monkey - spirit bond (if it's not active) - tell pet to attack ganker (if this doesn't happen automatically) - wing clip and run. If they circle strafe I just stay still and spam Wing Clip (since they will circle around in front of me sooner or later)

I usually take a bit of a beating which is slightly mitigated by the pet's healing of me and then get clear upon which the pet heals me very fast and the opponent generally feels forced to stop and take on the pet at which point I can stop and shoot them

It's not quite an "I win" button but it's much much better

The trade-off is some dps but it's surprisingly small since the pet's dps is significantly boosted. By the time I reach 60 I'll have enough talent points to regain two of the strongest marksmanship talents: more crits and bigger crits.

In PvE I can take on tougher encounters than I used to be able to before with the Beast mastery build so I'm very happy all round. The survivability of the character is now extraordinary but that's partly because I'm getting better at using feign death (it works much better if you have some distance between you and the big horde of angry mobs so sacrificing kitty and running first then using feign death is an effective method)

[towelrod]

Scatter shot is your "I win" button. If that hits, you have a few seconds to run and get range. Use one of those snare abilities, and a serpent sting, and the fight is over. Its important to put a dot on early, so the rogue can't vanish.

Hunters usually have enough armor to survive the initial burst, and once they get to range the rogue doesn't have a chance.

[Brista]

Scatter shot is your "I win" button.  If that hits, you have a few seconds to run and get range.  Use one of those snare abilities, and a serpent sting, and the fight is over.  Its important to put a dot on early, so the rogue can't vanish.

Hunters usually have enough armor to survive the initial burst, and once they get to range the rogue doesn't have a chance.
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I never quite got the hang of scatter shot. Very often the rogue attacks while other players are around and they'll immediately break it, or my pet will be in defensive and break it. I don't think I ever reacted to a gank by putting the pet on passive then hitting scatter shot. Or I'd execute it perfectly then back off (at the slower movement rate) instead of turning to run or strafing

So it may very well be an "I win" button but it wasn't one I ever came to grips with

Once I max out I'll probably play around with different builds and have another go, for now I can't see myself dropping Spirit Bond

[lemekim]

I never quite got the hang of scatter shot. Very often the rogue attacks while other players are around and they'll immediately break it, or my pet will be in defensive and break it. I don't think I ever reacted to a gank by putting the pet on passive then hitting scatter shot. Or I'd execute it perfectly then back off (at the slower movement rate) instead of turning to run or strafing

So it may very well be an "I win" button but it wasn't one I ever came to grips with

Once I max out I'll probably play around with different builds and have another go, for now I can't see myself dropping Spirit Bond
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Your pet should always be on passive =(

You can do two things:

1) Scatter shot and try to get some distance, although if might not work well if you have crippling poison on you.

2) Second method is much better, but its much harder to pull off. Use Scattershot, immediately feint death, cancel it, place freezing trap and let the rogue get trapped. Get some distance, bandaid/eat, put another trap at your feet and proceed to dish out the pain. You don't really need scattershot for the freezing trick to work, but sometimes the rogues will catch up too early and put you back in combat before you can put down the trap.

[Sir_Die_alot]

or my pet will be in defensive and break it. I don't think I ever reacted to a gank by putting the pet on passive then hitting scatter shot. Or I'd execute it perfectly then back off (at the slower movement rate) instead of turning to run or strafing
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I belive on the hunter official hunter WoW forums there is a macro that will tell your pet to STOP after casting scatter shot. I saw a few others there that looked useful but my hunter was too young (and the alloted number of macros too small) to be of any real use to me just yet.

[towelrod]

One of my friends is a hunter, and he uses a ton of macros. You should definately set up some macros that do things like:

1. scatter shot, then put your pet on passive
2. feign death, put pet on passive
3. Maybe attack, tell pet to assist you?

I think there is a mod called PetAssist or something like that which is really helpful.