Is the (Holy) Paladin the better Warrior?

[nobbie]

Same question as in the previous (Shadow) Priest vs. Mage discussion:

Is the (Holy) Paladin the better Warrior in WOW for Solo-Play? Is there any argument - besides the DPS output - that could convince me to play a Warrior instead of a Paladin with his self-healing ability and buffs?

[Kevin]

Same question as in the previous (Shadow) Priest vs. Mage discussion:

Is the (Holy) Paladin the better Warrior in WOW for Solo-Play? Is there any argument - besides the DPS output - that could convince me to play a Warrior instead of a Paladin with his self-healing ability and buffs?
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I can't speak on the paladin past L32 right now, but up to that point there is no question in my mind that the paladin solo's better than a warrior. There is also no question in my mind that a warrior at that level tanks better than a paladin in groups. I'll let other more experienced players go into more detail. My paladin is a retribution spec though I did put 5 points in Spiritual focus so I could make my heals uninterruptable with concentration aura up.

[Tal]

Same question as in the previous (Shadow) Priest vs. Mage discussion:

Is the (Holy) Paladin the better Warrior in WOW for Solo-Play? Is there any argument - besides the DPS output - that could convince me to play a Warrior instead of a Paladin with his self-healing ability and buffs?
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At early levels the paladin outshines the warrior in solo play by quite a bit. Once you get into your late thirties and attain your quested-but-not-yet-implemented-mount your power level drops off noticeably. Late 40s to 60 your power drops off expotentially. Not to mention that the two of the top tier talents are not worthy of being in the top tier. If you run down the protection tree you get repentenance and can crowd control a mob for six whole seconds. If you run down the holy tree you get a little better with Holy Shock that can do 205 to 219 dmg for 320 mana. Good for pulling or killing runners but not necessarily worth the investment unless you plan on being back up healer often. Finally if you run down retribution you get Blessings of Kings with a 10% increase in stats for 5 minutes for you and your party members. Now we're talking. :)

If you decide you want to be a tanker paladin you're practically required to split your talents between retribution for the marginal threat of consecration and the protection talents.

The other problem with paladins is that you are entirely, and I mean entirely, dependent upon luck for your dps. Aside from the undead skills and talents there is no reliable source of burst dps in your arsenal - you must rely upon luck for your dps.

If you like having combat options and a fun play style go warrior. If you like being able to absorb a lot of damage at the cost of drawn out fights go paladin. If you also like throwing blessings on folks and the odd heal also go paladin.

Personally I love playing the offtank role in groups with Sharanna but my warrior Shalandrax is a lot more fun to play.

[vor_lord]

If you like having combat options and a fun play style go warrior. If you like being able to absorb a lot of damage at the cost of drawn out fights go paladin. If you also like throwing blessings on folks and the odd heal also go paladin.
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I'll agree with everything Tal says. I guarantee you will die less if you play a paladin. You may fall asleep, but you won't die ;) The paladin has got to be the most boring of the classes to solo.

As far as being able to absorb a lot of damage: blessing of wisdom + judgment of wisdom + seal of wisdom + fast one hander + shield + concentration aura + spiritual focus + divine favor + illumination means you are able to solo encounters impossible for any other class (except perhaps a really good warlock).

If mobs have no way to stop my healing and they don't have large burst damage (i.e. 1000+) I can take on 3 even level mobs and emerge with full mana and health (probably even 4 if they don't hit too hard). I can take on enemies in groups of 3 in a continous stream indefinitely, even without a weapon or using invulnerable shields. It takes a very long time (think geological), but you can survive and it is fun to be able to do that from time to time to complete some quests. And this is at level 57 with horrible gear.

But combat is quite boring.

Warriors have a lot of involvement and variety in their combat. If I was to suggest an argument that may convince you to play a warrior, it is simply that they have more interesting combat.

[Xanthix]

An important distinction that I have a feeling will come up is what spec warrior are we talking?

A defense/protection warrior will solo a lot slower and be at a disadvantage in pvp compared to an offense/arms/fury warrior. They are really night and day when it comes to play style.

I would guess that an offensive warrior could do more damage than a pally, and with bandages and potions could compete in soloing speed etc. I imagine a defensive warrior would have lower dps and fewer attack options, but greater survivability closer to that of a pally.

[Quark]

An important distinction that I have a feeling will come up is what spec warrior are we talking?
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From what I've heard, any soloer who's protection specced is insane :wacko:

[Kevin]

From what I've heard, any soloer who's protection specced is insane  :wacko:
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A def spec solo does not have even half of a pallies survivabiliy and doesn't kill nearly as fast as a pally either. When Treesh and I duo with Gnolack and Aleri (def spec and holy spec) we never worry about dying but she is probably putting out more DPS even when she isn't using mind blast. But you put Gnolack in an instance and he really shines. :)

[Darian]

Same question as in the previous (Shadow) Priest vs. Mage discussion:

Is the (Holy) Paladin the better Warrior in WOW for Solo-Play? Is there any argument - besides the DPS output - that could convince me to play a Warrior instead of a Paladin with his self-healing ability and buffs?
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I rolled to 60 in the company of a Paladin. I was arms/fury specced. So I can address this pretty succinctly. However, I simply can't separate this into a discussion of just solo play, because the bottom line is that you're just not going to get the gear you need unless you hit instances as you go along.

From 1-45, a paladin is better than a warrior, regardless of the warrior's spec. He can solo more rapidly (and with much less risk of death), has the benefit of being able to just mow through areas infested with undead thanks to his specific skills designed for just that purpose, and actually does more and mitigates more damage. In a group, the paladin will more often than not be the main tank (although the warrior is more likely to be the puller), because he's still out-damaging the warrior, and has more ability to take the hits.

From 46-55, the tables turn. The paladin's ability to solo slows dramatically; the warrior's DPS is still increasing rapidly as the warrior gains more skills designed specifically TO increase his DPS, while the paladin remains somewhat static. Likewise, the warrior's solo ability is increasing as his fights become shorter. In groups, the warrior begins to supplant the paladin as main tank, both due to increased damage output and skills designed for that purpose.

After 55, although the paladin is still an extremely useful character, the warrior wins. When people start putting together groups, more often than not it's "we'll take a pally if you can't find a warrior." That's possibly a little unfair (and it's definitely unfair depending on the objective -- a 56 pally can tank Sunken Temple perfectly well, thanks, and a 58+ pally can handle all of BRD except the Emperor with no issues), but it's the mindset out there.

So the thing you have to ask yourself is whether you want to race to end-game and then scramble, or take a slightly slower path and then pretty much always be able to find a group when you want one. But strictly speaking of solo play -- i.e., if you were never ever going to group at all -- there's no reason whatsoever to play a warrior over a paladin.

[towelrod]

As a rogue, I have to say that I am much happier with a warrior as the main tank than a paladin. With a warrior, I can usually do a lot more damage without grabbing agro, but with a pally I have to slow down quite a bit. And if I do grab agro, a feint will probably throw it onto the priest/mage instead of back onto the tank, so I can't even do that.

I end up with pallys in a lot of instances because its hard to find warriors. But I hit 60 last night, so we'll see if things are different in the instances after BRD.

[Artega]

I'd say the turning point for Warrior solo arrives at around Lv.24, at which point they gain Execute I, allowing them to end fights MUCH sooner. At Lv.36, they gain Whirlwind, giving them an effective Rage-to-damage skill, further increasing their overall dps (they'll also have Berserker Stance, giving them +3% crit.) At Lv.45, they'll gain Mortal Strike, which is the complete turnaround point where the Warrior starts to greatly outshine the Paladin in terms of DPS.

As far as a Paladin beating a Warrior in DPS pre-Lv.45, I'd say it's not as great as you might think. While Pallies get some nifty abilties (like SoC and Consecration) in their Retribution line, Warriors get Cruelty (+5% crit) right away, while Pallies need to go 25 points deep into Retribution to get this. They also lack the weapon specialization talents - Maces, Swords, Axes, and Polearms (although they get Two-Handed Weapons, and much sooner.) Warriors also gain Deep Wounds, Improved Overpower, and Impact relatively early on, which greatly increase their overall DPS. I can't speak from experience, having only raised a Paladin to 18 or so (I got bored with him, and rolled a mage instead), but Warriors are incredibly powerful from Lv.1-15. Maybe Elwynn Forest and Tirisfal Glades are different in difficulty of mobs, but I had a much easier (and faster) time raising my Warrior to 15 than my Paladin.

I wouldn't discount Holy Shock as being bad, either. While it seems mana-expensive and is kinda weak (Holy Shock III is 365-395 for 480 Mana), the ability to reach out and touch someone while shielded cannot be understated, especially since Pallies lack an effective means of ranged damage.

[savaughn]

As a rogue, I have to say that I am much happier with a warrior as the main tank than a paladin.  With a warrior, I can usually do a lot more damage without grabbing agro, but with a pally I have to slow down quite a bit.  And if I do grab agro, a feint will probably throw it onto the priest/mage instead of back onto the tank, so I can't even do that.

I end up with pallys in a lot of instances because its hard to find warriors.  But I hit 60 last night, so we'll see if things are different in the instances after BRD.
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Agreed. The OP was about solo-play, but a Paladin is not a warrior for group play. As an assist, I expect to be able to only ramp damage on whatever the paladin is currently hitting. As a priest, the first big heal is going be immediately followed by a fade. I've never played druid behind a paladin in an instance, but based on my priest's experiences, I have a feeling that a pull of 5 mobs would end up with me tanking two in fairly short order.

It may just be that there's a lot of bad Pally tanks out there, though.

[Thawwing Light]

A def spec solo does not have even half of a pallies survivabiliy and doesn't kill nearly as fast as a pally either.  When Treesh and I duo with Gnolack and Aleri (def spec and holy spec) we never worry about dying but she is probably putting out more DPS even when she isn't using mind blast.  But you put Gnolack in an instance and he really shines. :)
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As another warrior who duos with a Priest who specced 'Protection', I have to agree that Sword and Shield warrior is a very slow, semi-safe route. With a priest backing you, you're nigh indestructable, but it's a very slow game. The upshot is, you have the best instance tank in the entire game if you know how to play, and a priest that's used to your style ;].

Paladins, on the other hand, are unkillable. A Druid vs. Paladin duel between a few of my friends on another server lasted 14 minutes... I've tried to kill paladins, and they just don't die. Sure, they have the major downside of not being able to grab hate quickly and easily like warriors, and their damage is mediocre even when they focus on it, but proper use of stun+heal, shield+heal, and just plain healing can allow Paladins to survive fights that no one really should be able to survive.

Note that I've never actually played Paladin, only defensive warrior. A defensive warrior also can also do a good deal of damage if he's willing to slap on a 2 handed weapon and lose a bit of health, but it's generally only a good idea if you're fighting monsters you're tearing through anyway.

[towelrod]

It may just be that there's a lot of bad Pally tanks out there, though.

I think that is part of it. Pallys just don't have as much experience as tanks, probably. I have done every instance up to BRD with a pally as the main (only) tank, and it has always worked out ok. That's mainly because all of those instances are easy, and you don't really need a great tank. I did ZF a few weeks ago with rogue, rogue, priest, priest, priest and we did the whole thing -- all bosses and the temple. We were slightly over leveled, but only by 2 or 3 levels.

In places like ZF, its really easy for the tank to just take one mob at a time. The rogue can tank another, and yet another can probably be handled by the other three classes. So a tank might think "I've got this mob locked down, so I am doing my job, those other guys can take care of themselves".

[Darian]

As far as a Paladin beating a Warrior in DPS pre-Lv.45, I'd say it's not as great as you might think.
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Just speaking from observation, mind you. I was routinely unable to draw aggro from the paladin just on straight DPS until around 45; after that point, it was clear I was beginning to outdamage him. Of course, he usually ran with the Seal of Whatever It Is That Transfers Hate*, so the actual cutoff is probably lower, come to think of it.

* - pally being one of the two classes I haven't played, I confess a lack of conversance with their talent tree. ;)

[Darian]

It may just be that there's a lot of bad Pally tanks out there, though.
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'course, there's a lot of bad everything out there... ;)

[Tal]

Just speaking from observation, mind you.  I was routinely unable to draw aggro from the paladin just on straight DPS until around 45; after that point, it was clear I was beginning to outdamage him.  Of course, he usually ran with the Seal of Whatever It Is That Transfers Hate*, so the actual cutoff is probably lower, come to think of it.

* - pally being one of the two classes I haven't played, I confess a lack of conversance with their talent tree.  ;)
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Fury to garner threat, Salvation to cut your/others threat level.

[Mavfin]

Fury to garner threat, Salvation to cut your/others threat level.
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I play a protection-spec warrior...however, for solo/DPS work, I carry a big two-hander, and have it trained up. I have Cruelty, Deflection (parry), Tac Mastery, and Piercing Howl, so, she's not all protection by any means. I consider all those except maybe Cruelty as defensive in nature, though.

I use the two-hander on mobs I'm tearing through, particularly one-on-one, or two-on-one, but if it gets to three, or if they start hitting me too hard, it's back to the one-hand and shield....solo speed isn't bad, and I rarely die. The cruelty makes a huge diff in solo speed, gets mobs down to 20% quicker. And 20% left on the mob is all you need, as a warrior who routinely drops 800+ damage on an execute, and crits over 2000 on it. (lvl 50)

And, I still shine in instances. Ok, a pally can tank an easy instance, but, let's face it...I'd rather have that pally off-tanking and filling holes while I do the aggro tricks I'm trained/built for, to have those mobs beating on me while the pally uses his best damage to beat on them. My role is to soak up the damage.

I duo a lot with my best buddy, who has a hunter. If things are going along well, I have the two-hander on, the pet tanks, I'm just a smart pet/more damage/execute finisher. If things go bad, weap switch, stance switch, voila, in 2 seconds, I'm the tank, and we can make it through somehow. For really difficult stuff, add my other friend, a healer, put on my shield, and become almost unkillable, unless we pull too many mobs.

Also, a warrior and a pally make a really good duo. The warrior can go DPS, as the pally can take damage, too, but if it starts to go bad on you, go defensive, pull the mobs off the pally, and the pally heals the warrior. This can go on for days! :blush:

Now, as for straight solo? The pally can heal himself. Which means he can do orange quests routinely solo, while the warrior has to like dying a lot to do the same. 'nuff said. If it's a question of solo survivability/efficiency, you'll never play a warrior.

[ima_nerd]

I've now leveled up my Human Warrior, Hama, to level 28 and I have to say he is a #$%&load of fun. It gets hairy sometimes but I've been able to solo suprisingly well especially once I got Execute. Getting Smite's Mighty Hammer has helped loads too with it's "insane" DPS (21ish after you factor in the +11 Str).

I played my friends 42 paladin for a day of Uldaman runs and was bored to death. I didn't die once all day but I did fall asleep several times...

Warrior = fun but sometimes tricky
Paladin = boring but effective

If you're playing with someone, go Warrior and don't even consider Paladin. If you're mainly solo play, it's really your perogative. I'm not concerned with leveling uber-fast so Warrior is fine with me. Paladin will level faster but you may grow bored rather quickly.

[nobbie]

A far as Warriors goes, I've made an interesting observation:

I often make in-game screenshots for my personal game archive, during which I switch off the interface (Alt+Z). While the interface is turned off, I naturally cannot use any of the Warrior's special attacks, i.e. Heroic Strike, Rend, Sunder Armor, Thunderclap etc, so he just fights automatically using the normal attack with the occasional, automatically generated Critical Strikes and Enrage in between. The funny thing is, when I'm done taking screenshots (monster is dead) and I turn on the interface again, that the Warrior has 1.) a full Rage bar (because no special attacks were used) and 2.) he has almost the same hitpoints (damage taken) as if I had used all special attacks in a fully controlled fight! Also, the fight hardly took longer than with the special attacks, which leads me to believe that the Warior's special atttacks, with the exception of crowd control, are just cool looking special effects with hardly an effect as far as DPS is concerned :)

[Tal]

I frequently am part of whisper conversations while playing my warrior to the effect that I spend large portions of the fight without using any special skills. Those fights are usually a lot longer (almost twice as long) as a fight where I am fully involved and I tend to come out of these longer fights with lower health. But Shal is Arms/Fury focused so that may be where the difference lies.

P.S. I love improved overpower in conjunction with mortal strike and execute. Last night I charged a Trogg in the badlands, mortally struck him, he dodged my follow up so I overpowered with a crit then executed him. Rahr! :w00t:

:whistling: