The Fools Strike Again

[Doc]

I would like to make sure when people saw my post they also noted the disclaimer text saying I don't agree with it.

Being excommunicated from a church, at least where I live in the sleepy backwards South is in some ways even worse than Catholic excommunication. It's a social blackballing. In small towns, word spreads quickly, and the effect is life ending. The banker in the church you used to go to? He wont give you a loan to save your life or your house for that matter. The car dealer that was in the church you go to? Don't bother going to him for a car ever again... And miss your payment by one day and he might just send the repo guy after you. The cook behind the counter might spit, or worse, in your food. People will shun you, cast you out, treat you like dirt, and the only thing you can do is just move away. You're done for. You will never get a fair shake in that town ever again. People have been fired even, for being excommunicated from their church... It can be a very very ugly thing. After losing your job and having your bills pile up, the person behind the desk at the government assistance office might just "accidently" lose your application for aid. The churches, especially the So-Baps, are an exceptionally POWERFUL entity. They ARE the government round these parts. What they say goes. Turn against them, and they will make your life miserable. They can run you out of town, out of state even. I don't expect outsiders to understand what it is like, or for it to even make sense... Southern Politics is a deep and complicated subject... Church and state has no seperation down here... The church is the state and vice versa.

I know, probably better than most, because of my own experiences. I... I don't want to go into that right now, but if pressed I may or may not spill the beans. Some of you already know what I have done.

While many of you will be upset over this incident, very few of you will actually understand what it means to the people being excommunicated, and how it might effect their lives.

[Occhidiangela]

I would like to make sure when people saw my post they also noted the disclaimer text saying I don't agree with it.

Being excommunicated from a church, at least where I live in the sleepy backwards South is in some ways even worse than Catholic excommunication. It's a social blackballing. In small towns, word spreads quickly, and the effect is life ending. The banker in the church you used to go to? He wont give you a loan to save your life or your house for that matter. The car dealer that was in the church you go to? Don't bother going to him for a car ever again... And miss your payment by one day and he might just send the repo guy after you. The cook behind the counter might spit, or worse, in your food. People will shun you, cast you out, treat you like dirt, and the only thing you can do is just move away. You're done for. You will never get a fair shake in that town ever again. People have been fired even, for being excommunicated from their church... It can be a very very ugly thing. After losing your job and having your bills pile up, the person behind the desk at the government assistance office might just "accidently" lose your application for aid. The churches, especially the So-Baps, are an exceptionally POWERFUL entity. They ARE the government round these parts. What they say goes. Turn against them, and they will make your life miserable. They can run you out of town, out of state even. I don't expect outsiders to understand what it is like, or for it to even make sense... Southern Politics is a deep and complicated subject... Church and state has no seperation down here... The church is the state and vice versa.

I know, probably better than most, because of my own experiences. I... I don't want to go into that right now, but if pressed I may or may not spill the beans. Some of you already know what I have done.

While many of you will be upset over this incident, very few of you will actually understand what it means to the people being excommunicated, and how it might effect their lives.
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Doc, I grant you your experience. No argument on that possible outcome growing to a shunning. Could happen.

However, depending on the density of churches in a given locale, and how they compete with one another for who is in their congregation, the reasons behind an excommunication will be as well known as the fact of communication . . . and will be taken into consideration. How small is small?

Occhi

[jahcs]

Ah, yes. Southern hospitality strikes again. Small-minded folk doing unkind things that do real damage.

Disclaimer: I personally know many people who live in the south and are wonderfull and are not small minded by any means.

[[wcip]Angel]

How you vote is a private matter.
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As is religion, and no churches, ministers, rules or ceremonies are needed. Faith is all that is required. "Faith manages." (My opinion, not fact (should there have been any doubt :P).)

[Doc]

Doc, I grant you your experience.  No argument on that possible outcome growing to a shunning.  Could happen.

However, depending on the density of churches in a given locale, and how they compete with one another for who is in their congregation, the reasons behind an excommunication will be as well known as the fact of communication . . . and will be taken into consideration.  How small is small?

Occhi
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Ah... The questions of outsiders...

Think of many of the churches around here as... Franchises. Bob Jones for example. They have gone around, filled the pulpits with Bob Jones Approved Pastors™. They go around and buy up financially challenged churches, strip them of their old leadership, and fill them up with Bob Jones Approved Leadership™. But they might let the church keep it's old name. They go through and spread like a cancer. In a small town with say, a few hundred people, you might have three churches. They might, on the outside, appear to be rival churches, with different names or variations on a theme, but, in truth, they are probably all owned by the same people, and run very carefully from the background. Religious rivalries are all the rage down here, so it's very important to make sure to keep up appearances. A good Methodist will never go swimming in a pool on the odd chance they might be confused as a Baptist, and a good Baptist will never go out in the rain on the odd chance they might be confused as a Methodist. So you must keep up the illusion of rivalry to keep the population happy... That means nothing however, as it's probably the same old men in nice suits running both of the churches. I have dealt personally with this treacherous web of deceit, become entangled in it, and I know it all to well. Small independant churches outside of the influence of the major power players never seem to last long... Or do very well. If they are doing well for themselves, there is a good chance that they have been infiltrated and are under the control of a larger entity, and are merely kept going to give the illusion of choice to the populace.

The church has become a business that does not get taxed, but, heavily taxes it's followers. Mega churches... Monstrosities exist now that offer 5 star dining, health clubs, spas, coffeeshops, music stores, even sell clothing and goods in the church. It's your one stop shop for all your needs. These churches make billions of dollars, and no, that is not a typo. NONE of this money is taxed. Some of these churches are more like malls with everything under the sun that you could imagine for sale... And people that run these businesses under the protective umbrella of the church rake in the money hand over fist... And never get taxed. This money is all funneled upward to the folks in control, and none of it is taxed. Some of that money is used to keep control, pay off the right people, buy some people out, and maintain complete and total control. You can not begin to imagine how much power these entities hold.

I attacked this network once, a long long time ago. Not alone mind you... I had a lot of help. We sliced into the church and visciously attacked it, trying to hold them accountable. So much money was being funneled into the KKK, and the churches and schools were being used as recruiting grounds for the KKK and other white supremacy groups. There was much fallout. Many pastors, many leaders, many of those old men in nice suits went to prison. Many churches lost their tax exept status. Many schools, like Bob Jones University, lost their charters and accreditation. While all of this was a nasty wound, and exposed some of the inner workings of the churches to the public, looking back, and hindsight being what it is, I can see now it was mostly just a papercut. Churches bought back their status, Bob Jones bought back it's credibility, and new masters moved in the fill the vacancies. I believe they are even stronger now, and better defended against attacks... I would even venture to say they are nearly impervious to assault. I would stake my own credibility on that statement.

I stand by my faith and my love of God. I despise the corruption that I see and pray that people will realize there are still true followers... I can't stand the black eye that my faith has been given by these false prophets and false teachers... I am probably wasting my words and wasting my time though. The damage has been done and for many, their minds will never change.

[Occhidiangela]

Ah... The questions of outsiders...

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Doc, by Church, I was being unclear. My bad. I have lived in parts of the South. Try the Northern Florida Panhandle for Serious Southern. Churches all over the place, large and small, of an immense variety of denominations.

Church.

Methodist. Baptist. Lutheran. First Assembly of God. And so on, and so forth. The Protestant Faith is hardly monolithic.

This takes us back to my question of how small is small?

Occhi

[Raelynn]

As is religion, and no churches, ministers, rules or ceremonies are needed. Faith is all that is required. "Faith manages." (My opinion, not fact (should there have been any doubt :P).)
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This is truely how I feel about religion. I see no reason other than the politics of the organizations to require things out of the members beyond faith. I have a certain religious frame of mind, but in the end, I feel that anyone, as long as they feel they tried hard to not intentionally go against their own beliefs (granted these beliefs must have some basis in accepted morals and laws) has been faithful and deserves whatever g ood may come in the afterlife. Whether or not an afterlife exists is an entirely different subject that is not the topic of discussion.

My own religion for some time has been just me adhering to my own defined morals and doctrines which take into account a wide variety of beliefs basically handpicked from the many religions around the world. Each has various strong points, but none have truely given me "The Answer™". All in all I feel religion is best defined individually given a person's own experiences and beliefs. No one can truely tell you what is correct concerning this.

If you want some other interesting ideas I have, ask me my beliefs on morals. That got me into a bunch of arguements in my philosophy and religion classes ;)

[Rhydderch Hael]

The pastor who did this has now resigned.

[Doc]

I never thought I would ever say this, but God bless the media!

Finally a voice for the downtrodden that works. Some times. On occasion. If it's a slow news day.

[Occhidiangela]

The pastor who did this has now resigned.
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Good news. I wonder if it was a secular colleague, or a Voice, who let him know he had crossed the line of service, humility, and propriety.

Occhi

[jahcs]

Hmm, I wonder if the folks kicked out of the church will be allowed to return - or if they would even want to?

[Guest]

Lame, but it should be allowed.

Having the IRS go after a church because its full of idiots is not the answer. As a whole churches around the world have often been the last refuges of free thought and polictical light in dark times.

Its much better to allow them to preach what ever stupidity they prefer than it is to legally muzzle them thereby giving the Govt an actual means for religious censorship.

[Guest]

No a fair comparison.

For several reason America has reached the absurd situation where the only way to "vote" on abortion is choose Supreme Court justices and this is done by the proxy of voting for the President.

Im not condoning that churches methods, but I think they are actually taking a logical approach to the issue.

[Quark]

As a whole churches around the world have often been the last refuges of free thought and polictical light in dark times.
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"You can't be a Baptist, you voted for Kerry!"

Yep, that's real free thought going on right there.

[Guest]

Can you even read?

If you can read my whole statment. Other wise <moderated>.

[Quark]

Can you even read?

If you can read my whole statment. Other wise <moderated>.
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You must think you're posting on b.net public forums today.

Lame, but it should be allowed.

Why? These organizations are giving tax-exempt status for reasons. If they violate the very reasons they are given tax-exempt status, why should they be tax-exempt?

Having the IRS go after a church because its full of idiots is not the answer.

Idiots or not, they're subject to the same laws as everyone else. If they want special status, they should stick to it.

As a whole churches around the world have often been the last refuges of free thought and polictical light in dark times.

I gave an example of the exact opposite, but I'm sorry. You must be right because you made a general statement with no examples! Religion is usually a "refuge of free thought" against one thing - itself. That's why there was a Great Schism. That's the beginnings of the Protestant movement.

I see no history of organized religions actually being a refuge in dark times. Or did you forget about the Spanish Inquisition, among other things?

Its much better to allow them to preach what ever stupidity they prefer than it is to legally muzzle them thereby giving the Govt an actual means for religious censorship.

They weren't preaching, they were mandating. Likewise, the government wasn't censoring. Holding an organization up to a standard is not censorship. Censoring would mean that Pastor ended up in jail.

[Guest]

You didnt give an "example" you simply repeated the troublesome senerio that it was clear I was contrasting when I said "As a whole churches".

If you had given a new example example to belittle my point about chiches that would have been good rhetoric. What you did was grade school style sleight of hand rhetoric.




You can not logically use an "example" that is being held out as an exception as proof that the original "example" is not an exception.





EDIT: No I dont think I am on B.net. If I was I would have directly insulted you after you used flawed dialectic.

[Quark]

Well, since you have still done nothing to prove your own statement, I guess you "win" cause I've got nothing left to say.

[Rinnhart]

Well, since you have still done nothing to prove your own statement, I guess you "win" cause I've got nothing left to say.
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He can argue rhetoric and dialectics, Quark; he doesn't need a point.

[Guest]

Well, since you have still done nothing to prove your own statement, I guess you "win" cause I've got nothing left to say.
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No, we never got into a meritous discussion because you didnt bother making a real point till after you tried intellectual dishonesty. I found that far more annoying the reasonable disagreement I started with.

Notice I was polite when I addressed your original point(even though I disagreed with it). At this point though I am content to simply show you are not to be trusted in discourse.