Butterfly Effects

[Rinnhart]

"The Enforcer", "The Panzer Cardinal", and "God's Rottweiler" should say it all. The new pope's pre pope-al nicknames. As well, he was the head of the order that was formerly known as the Inquistion.

The church will go crawling back into the dark ages one way or another, it seems.
[right][snapback]74477[/snapback][/right]

I think I like this new guy!

[Doc]

He was also a proud member of Hitler's Nazi Youth, with honours. Distinguished service even.

For a long time they have tried to bury and make good his Nazi ties. Cute. Really cute.

The Catholic Church and IBM still have a lot to answer for with their ties to the Nazis.

If he ever vacations in Israel, he had better be careful. The Mossad Black Ops Service Division might just blow his brains out. From what I read, they don't care much for this guy, his past, and his opinions.

The world does not need an anti-Semitic white supremacist as Pope.

[whyBish]

In a cynical counter your sexist  :P  position, your none too subtle assertion that gender is a determinant in bad government:
[right][snapback]74478[/snapback][/right]

I shouldn't get into this in a Catholic thread :P

[eppie]

Anyways, it's the first german pope since 480 years.
?[right][snapback]74473[/snapback][/right]

And that last one came from Utrecht...(NL)

eppie

[Armin]

He was also a proud member of Hitler's Nazi Youth, with honours. Distinguished service even.

FYI, he joined the Hitler Youth in 1941 when turning FOURTEEN, which was, btw., then required by law in Germany. Drafted into the "Volkssturm" as a "Flak Aid" at age 16 he *deserted* in 1945, most likely before seeing any real combat...

Now, don't get me wrong, I left the catholic church almost 18 years ago because of the radical conservative viewpoints of his mentor and now predecessor Karol Woytila, and I hardly think that things will go uphill now that his grand Inquisitor has taken over. I don't like the man's strictly conservative, sometimes reactionist, views one bit. I certainly don't like him personally either...

But holding something he had no say in as a teenager, back in 1941, against him is just plain silly!

[Nystul]

Hmm. Since I'm a protestant, I'm not obligated to agree with or even care about anything the new pope says or does. :whistling: Of course, the influence of the Pope affects us all quite a bit. If I were Catholic, I'd probably be pretty happy with the choice though. I'd rather have a religious leader who takes a firm stand on the tenants of his faith than one who runs the church as if it were a popularity contest.

The last pope appeared to me to be very conservative and firm with regards to most internal church issues, so I don't see this as being a significant change for practicing Catholics. Rather, it is a setback for Catholics who *wanted* significant changes, of which there are plenty. With regards to geopolitics, it may be a bigger change (although I don't know enough about the Pope to really say).

Apparently this is the first Pope who was ever an American POW. What an interesting distinction that is.

[ShadowHM]

But holding something he had no say in as a teenager, back in 1941, against him is just plain silly!
[right][snapback]74543[/snapback][/right]

Agreed. His actions as a Pope will be witness enough. And for that, we must wait and see.

[Doc]

Bull CRAP.

If he doesn't even have the moral huevos to stand up to a little drafting, what makes you think he has the morals to be Pope? The Pope was meant to be somebody that had shown an outstanding dedication of morals through out their whole life. If he violently disagreed with it as he claimed, he should have done something about it. Run to whatever Canada he could find. For somebody drafted, he performed with outstanding service, earning rank, title, and distinguishing himself among his peers.

The Catholics have been busy for years cleaning up his past. Want some dirt... Go read the Mossad files on this guy. The thing is, there are to many people that want to forget what happened because it was, and still is, so horrible. And it's easy to take advantage of that. Just tell people what they want to remember, and people are so damn stupid that they will swallow a whole pack of lies just to make themselves feel better. You can't lie to people that have no desire for the truth.

[ShadowHM]

The Pope was meant to be somebody that had shown an outstanding dedication of morals through out their whole life.
[right][snapback]74562[/snapback][/right]

Quite apart from the rest of your rant, where did you get that particular notion?

The Pope, I thought, is to be the one chosen by God to lead the flock. God moves in mysterious ways, donchaknow?

God has, as far as I know, not chosen me to lead anyone. But I was a member of a church group at the age of 14, that was dedicated to 'God's service'. I wasn't even required by law to be there; it was my parent's moral suasion that got me there. I was good at it too, according to the reports my parents got. But that only makes my decision to leave it behind a stronger indicator of my character.

Let your outrage wait until you see the new Pope's actions as a Pope ?

[Occhidiangela]

Bull CRAP.

If he doesn't even have the moral huevos to stand up to a little drafting, what makes you think he has the morals to be Pope?
[right][snapback]74562[/snapback][/right]

Doc, I find it odd that anyone need point out to you the trap of applying the 'reverse' Halo Effect on anyone. The draft dodging of your day, in America, was a significant emotional event taken on by adults, not barely pubescent teenagers, in an open, free society at war with itself and part of the world. You can't apply to his situation to your assumptions. It won't wash.

When I was 14, I had any number of really ignorant understandings of the world. I lived in a free society, was not at war, and had no one threatening me if I did not do such and so.

When I was 17, I had developed a few more, and diferent, ignorant attitudes about people. Thank goodness I had a few good teachers (of all sorts), family members, and mentors who helped me see things with new eyes, to reinforce and expand on the fundamental principles my parents taught me.

At 45, I imagine I continue to have blind spots.

May I suggest we give Benedict XVI a pass on youthful circumstances, and consider anyone who spraypaints "Nazi" or "Hitler Youth" on his back to be guilty of tunnel vision and kee jerk reaction . . . at best. Hate speech, at worst.

His record as an adult, per Armin's observations, are probably sufficient to inform one's reactions to his potential as The Bishop of Rome, and his own actions will both flesh that out, and determine whether those who bet The Over or The Under should collect the cash.

What appears unlikely is a reform effort like Vatican II. Too bad, the clergy needs the option to marry. I don't see that coming any time soon.

Occhi

[eppie]

His record as an adult, per Armin's observations, are probably sufficient to inform one's reactions to his potential as The Bishop of Rome, and his own actions will both flesh that out, and determine whether those who bet The Over or The Under should collect the cash.

What appears unlikely is a reform effort like Vatican II.  Too bad, the clergy needs the option to marry.  I don't see that coming any time soon.

Occhi
[right][snapback]74577[/snapback][/right]

Well if I may be a bit bold. He kept his strong opinions against certain minorities. Like gays, women etc. It is clear that for this guy not all persons are the same, or should have the same rights......might this be some left-over from his WWII time??

[Occhidiangela]

Well if I may be a bit bold. He kept his strong opinions against certain minorities. Like gays, women etc. It is clear that for this guy not all persons are the same, or should have the same rights......might this be some left-over from his WWII time??
[right][snapback]74587[/snapback][/right]

Eppie

Women are not a minority, at least in my country. There are more women than men in America, and more women than men in American universities. I hear China and India have issues there, but cannot confirm it.

As to "might this be some left over from WW-II time?" No, I think not, and I find it absurd that anyone with a brain would consider that his teenage attitudes have been left uninfluenced by a lifetime of study, exposure to, and indepth exploration of Christian doctrine.

How about we all try to avoid pigeonholing a thinking human being. We can all fall into that trap. All of us. The man is an adult, and has had his whole life to learn. He is also a person who has embraced a well codified (if imperfect) doctrine as a matter of professional principle.

I will suggest that any antipathy toward the status of women, or homosexuals, would be his buy-in to the doctrine of the Catholic Church, not "WW II" time.

Occhi

(EDIT: I had women and men bass ackwards the first time up there. Preview is our friend.)

[eppie]

Eppie

Women are not a minority, at least in my country. 


:D o yes? In my country we only allow one woman per village...


As to "might this be some left over from WW-II time?"  No, I think not, and I find it absurd that anyone with a brain would consider that his teenage attitudes have been left uninfluenced by a lifetime of study, exposure to, and indepth exploration of Christian doctrine.

How about we all try to avoid pigeonholing a thinking human being.  We can all fall into that trap.  All of us.  The man is an adult, and has had his whole life to learn.  He is also a person who has embraced a well codified (if imperfect) doctrine as a matter of professional principle.

I will suggest that any antipathy toward the status of women, or homosexuals, would be his buy-in to the doctrine of the Catholic Church, not "WW II" time.

Occhi

(EDIT:  I  had women and men bass ackwards the first time up there.  Preview is our friend.)
[right][snapback]74595[/snapback][/right]

But of course occhi, (my initial reply was to you and also "influenced" by Doc's post.)

I also agree that what somebody did when he wasn't even an adult should not count anymore. ((but you occhi....you sound very left wing here.....why don't you come to Holland...you would feel at home :D )

I pointed at the popes views on women and gays (and probably a handful of other groups (I don't know how to use one word for this).
He has a view which to me is not very nice, so yes we don't even have to consider his past...just look at today.

[Occhidiangela]

I pointed at the popes views on women and gays (and probably a handful of other groups  (I don't know how to use one word for this).
He has a view which to me is not very nice, so yes we don't even have to consider his past...just look at today.
[right][snapback]74600[/snapback][/right]

eppie

I understand and share your frustration/confusion with modern English usage (abusage??) and the careless thinking that informs the commonly used term "minority" in much discussion. (Not your careless thinking, but the intellectual dishonesty it has taken over the decades to establish the common usage.)

Why not just say "gays and women" if that is all you know about his opinions, and leave out assumptions about "other groups" that you appear to be unsure about?

As to the man himself, I am puzzled at why a man 78 years old has been chosen. Does this smack of "interim Pope" to you the way it does to me?

PS: Having an open and inquiring mind is not the sole provice of the Left. :D

PPS: I would love to see the Netherlands again, it has been 8 years since my last visit.

Occhi

[Nystul]

I pointed at the popes views on women and gays (and probably a handful of other groups  (I don't know how to use one word for this).
He has a view which to me is not very nice, so yes we don't even have to consider his past...just look at today.
[right][snapback]74600[/snapback][/right]

The point is that his views towards women and homosexuals are Catholic doctrine, most of which are shared by the other Catholic leaders including the last Pope, and have absolutely nothing to do with the Nazis. I'm sure he would like to convert all Jews to Christianity as well, and I am also sure that has nothing to do with the Nazis.

Fine, you have a disagreement with the Pope on what things are morally right and wrong. Join the crowd. But you can't expect to use an unrelated event from over 60 years ago as leverage to show that you're right and he's wrong.

[Quark]

As to the man himself, I am puzzled at why a man 78 years old has been chosen.  Does this smack of "interim Pope" to you the way it does to me?
[right][snapback]74603[/snapback][/right]

In an article I read talking about possible selections for Pope, one guy was 68 and everyone else was 72 or older. The guy who was 68 was listed as a far-chance because people considered him "too young".

[Fragbait]

In an article I read talking about possible selections for Pope, one guy was 68 and everyone else was 72 or older.  The guy who was 68 was listed as a far-chance because people considered him "too young".
[right][snapback]74615[/snapback][/right]

Hi,

All candidates that were mentioned before as having good chances were between 68 and 79. While it may hold true that for a papacy, the chosen one should bring the wisdom of the years, I think in this case it has more to do with the long papacy of Jean Paul II. I don't recall how many years it were - 26? I read that it's quite possible that the cardinals would want a pope now that won't be 'in office' for a quarter of a century, and that many of them would prefer a new papacy of around a decade. Mayhaps that sheds some light into their decision, apart from the fact that Ratzinger and Woytila seemed to agree in many points, and that the new pope was a close ally of the old one.

Greetings, Fragbait

[DeeBye]

The Catholics have been busy for years cleaning up his past. Want some dirt... Go read the Mossad files on this guy.
[right][snapback]74562[/snapback][/right]

Do you have a link? I've been Googling for awhile now and I can't find one link to Mossad's file on Ratzinger.

Everything I've read and heard about the new pope suggests that he was a reluctant member of the Hitler Youth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI

When Ratzinger turned 14 in 1941, he joined the Hitler Youth, membership in which was legally required after 1938. National Catholic Reporter correspondent and biographer John Allen writes that Ratzinger was an unenthusiastic member who refused to attend meetings.

I give the guy credit for deserting his army post when Nazi deserters were routinely shot on sight.

That being said, he kinda looks like Emperor Palpatine

[Occhidiangela]

If there is something you can do, albeit small, won't you join me in adding a few butterfly wing flaps of sanity into the air currents of geopolitics?  I don't know if it will help, but like the prayers being said for Pope John Paul II, it can't hurt.

Occhi
[right][snapback]73073[/snapback][/right]

Well, if any of you added to the letter writing, it may have helped.

House lawmakers moved Thursday to kill the nuclear "bunker buster" bomb and transform it into a conventional weapons program.

Score one for sanity.

Occhi

[Rinnhart]

Well, if any of you added to the letter writing, it may have helped.
Score one for sanity.

Occhi
[right][snapback]77242[/snapback][/right]

Goddamn politicians. Always saving us from a nuclear holocaust.