My Thoughts & What I Need

[Bolty]

Before too much more damage is done, I will wrap up my statements.

People continue to have trouble separating me from the website or the guild (even though the guild is in no way officially tied to this website). Since both the guild and the website are both driven FAR more by their members and not myself (more than people may even realize, I do so little here now), this is also unfair to those who have made huge sacrifices and contributions to it. I cannot successfully post my opinions on a matter that is controversial and not wind up having people associate this website with that opinion, despite the fact that the two have so little to do with each other anymore. I don't make content here, nor do I run the gaming forums. If people were to either leave the Lurkers guild or stop posting/visiting here because of what I wrote in a controversial opinion piece, that would be a tremendous disservice to people like MongoJerry, Tal, Griselda, LemmingofGlory, Mavfin, Occhidiangela, Refrigerator, and many more who have put in an insane effort over the years to make this place what it is today. It's not just administration, it's content as well - have a stroll through the content of the site and see how many people have contributed it. I have thick skin and what other people think of me doesn't bother me anymore - I've developed that over many long years of webmastering. However, having people think poorly of Lurkers or this website because of my opinions DOES bother me.

I therefore apologize for my previous statements, especially those that were inflammatory. They were posted in anger. I took the leaving of various members too personally because I care a lot about having the guild mean a lot to everyone involved. To me, having people leave means that the guild is not succeeding as a fun environment for them. That, to me, translates as *I* not being fun for them. An example is when I hear a comment about how I've never grouped with so-and-so. The guild has more than 70 members now, and it's pretty impossible for me to have played with everyone, so that always takes me by surprise.

While the damage done to your opinion of me is likely irreversible, I ask that you do not let your opinion of this website and the Lurkers guild on Stormrage suffer from my actions. Remember how unfair this would be to other players you have gamed with and those who have worked so hard to make them what they are. Don't punish them for what you think of me.

Thanks,

-Bolty

[mjdoom]

Well, I'm at work so this is going to take a while to put together. Some things might not match up with posts that happen between when I start and end this but that is life. I'm also going to ramble and *gasp* give some opinions. I'm another one of those peaceniks (as most of us here are) and thus I don't like to face conflict. Oh well, /shrug.

This is also going to be a bit disjoint; I'm out of school for now, I don't care...

First off I guess I'll respond to what I will term "the Bolty situation." As I've understood the Lounge we have always been tolerant of other people's ideas. Although not everyone agrees the mods have let opinions be voiced and even closed some threads instead of nuking them so that people could still see the opinions expressed therein. As I see it, this is a situation where Bolty has some strong feelings. My gut tells me that we should respect his opinions like we do any other member of the Lounge here. Whether you agree with them or not is inconsequential to this. You have every right to disagree with Bolty and not want to ever group with him again as he seems to not want to group with you again. Elements of this have happened before and people have worked around them. Bolty just decided to be very forthcoming with his thoughts.

I realize that Bolty is the person who put this whole site together and has given us this home and for this people seem to expect him to be the ultimate diplomat it seems. He put disclaimers that this was his own opinion, it is not his fault if you ignore them. Remember that as Mongo has said many times We are not a guild. We are a conglomeration of friends. No one person has any real authority within our "guild". People have responded to some of Bolty's comments as if he is an authority regardless. If you want to do that it is your prerogative, but I would suggest people take the comments as they are: the opinions of one member of our group. If you don't agree with them noone is forcing you to make nice-nice but don't hate on the entire organization for the opinions of one member.

There was also a comment regarding Boltress' lack of appearances lately and not helping the 60s. Well, Catlyn hasn't been around so much lately either. My understanding is that she has been playing with friends in other places because there are not as many opportunities for Catlyn to play currently. Still, she was back for our attempt at MC and is still around on the boards. Does anyone have a problem with this? I certainly don't. Boltress is in a similar situation. If the right opportunity arises Bolty will dust her off, otherwise she is resting peacefully in Ironforge or wherever waiting for her opportunity. Noone should be telling anyone else how to play their characters.

Moving on...

I was the third player to cap in this guild, putting me in a very strange place. I've rarely been one to do things like that. I never took a D2 char past Act III Nightmare, I tend to distract myself along the way to goals and end up falling behind eithers. It was a bit odd to find myself at the top of the heap in this game but the people I was playing with made it so much fun. I specifically spent large portions of time doing stuff with Skan, Nini, and Lochnar and enjoyed that time so much that WoW took a large portion of time in my life. It ended up coinciding well with how my Real Life™ was running at the time so I went with it. For once I wasn't playing Madden 2004 for hours upon hours but was playing WoW instead...

I've never been much of a leader in my life (in fact I usually try to avoid it) but I found myself at the top of the heap and felt like it was a good place to give it a try. I was certainly far from an ideal "leader" and I've probably made more than my share of mistakes along the way but it went reasonably well. Back when Tutelin left the Lurkers it was a bit saddening to me. We were slowly picking up more higher level characters and it was nice to see more Lurkers that I could group with. But SoD realized that given his current situation he was not going to be able to do end-game stuff with Lurkers particularly soon and that was what he wanted. It was unfortunate to see him go but he was still a friend and someone I contact in game on a regular basis. In Aeternum gave him an opportunity that we couldn't and I knew it, even if I always wanted to think the Lurkers could get there and I was willing to wait.

Recently our numbers of 60s have been swelling, especially after we "assimilated" Contra Malum. Along with building our relationship with Carpe Aurum (which is led by Darian, another of our Lurker friends) we had a decent sized pool of people to pull from. We still don't have the numbers to run MC or Onyxia, but we were growing and then next tier of 60s are fast approaching. I still had dreams of getting to see some end game content with Lurkers. Sure, we would never be as efficient or effective as a true raiding guild (no matter how good our players might be) but we would get to try it out at the very least. The Basin is also a loose "guild" but there were still enough interested parties there that end game content forays seemed to be a reality to me. Sure, we had a rough time in MC the other day; but progress has to start somewhere and it seemed like we were getting there.

For this reason it saddens me even more as people feel the need to move on to other guilds. I understand some of their reasons but that still doesn't make it feel any better. I've tried in my own way to try to promote activities for Lurkers and as the pool diminishes it's even harder to herd the cats (a pretty good analogy IMO).

To get into specifics NSD wanted to do more end game raiding. IA provides him that opportunity. Even if I wish he didn't go that still doesn't mean that he shouldn't go. It is his prerogative and I can respect his decision. As far as I have seen he has only shown respect back to the Lurkers (even if he and I did snipe at each other for a little bit). The reality, as SoD has mentioned, is that the Lurkers will never be able to consistently raid end-game content. We may make some progress on it, but if you are looking to raid you have to move elsewhere. The opportunities to pick-up in places like that are few and far between. If you want to see the end game you have to go elsewhere. These people have still held their ties to the Lurkers and haven't shut us out so I will respect their decision and move along.

The move of Grizelle and Abattoir is a little more puzzling to me to be perfectly honest. On one hand I completely understand that the move doesn't change much. We are close friends with CA and we have instanced/raided with them fairly consistently over the last few weeks. They haven't moved far. On the other hand this very situation is what puzzles me. Why the need to switch "colors" when we have a close relationship with CA anyway? I don't know all of the guys there well but I have a feeling they would have accepted a few Lurkers on their weekly raids without a problem. Was there a need to switch guilds for this purpose? I have no answers here but if this situation hadn't escalated I wouldn't have really questioned it. They were still close and only a whisper away as Hillary said.

For a while I have thrown off overtures to join other guilds for more raiding as I have enjoyed Lurker company immensly. The people are the reason I got so hooked into this game. I have always held the hope that one day Lurkers would see end-game content and in the meantime I could find plenty of other things to do. I like to see content and I also like to help Lurkers. As time goes along we will fall farther behind the curve just by the nature of our coalition and what content will be added. I was always fine with this as the level of play and friendships I had built up were always more important to me.

Now that things are getting a bit messy and many of my efforts have met with middling success I am once again reminded that I could fairly easily move on and see more content. I still feel connected to the Lurkers in many ways though and so I'm not ready to run off into the night myself. There are things I love about being a Lurker and I'm not sure that I want to give those up.

Last night for the first time since Open Beta I logged onto the game and didn't really feel like playing. If I had mentioned this to my roommate he probably would have freaked out and thought I was sick. He loves to tease me about my latest addiction :shuriken: All I think right now is that I don't know what I think. I am far from done with this game but I'm not sure where I'm going from here. My plan was to get Galreth to cap and then pretty much play those two characters for a while. Alts beyond Galreth are just temporary distractions for me (that's why I was crazy enough to switch to mining from herbalism for minimal utility, I don't want to take the time to level my pally up to the point where he can mine things that are useful for me). I'm currently conflicted between my interest in enjoying more end-game content and enjoying helping Lurkers enjoy all of the game content.

I suppose that's enough of my rambling for now. I'm sure I've forgotten plenty of thoughts I've had but it's not that important. I've rambled enough. I'll see you guys in game.

- mjdoom

[Darian]

I don't know all of the guys there well but I have a feeling they would have accepted a few Lurkers on their weekly raids without a problem.  Was there a need to switch guilds for this purpose?[right][snapback]77297[/snapback][/right]

Absolutely, 100%, no question, Carpe Aurum policy is that Lurkers are always welcome. If we need to fill out a group, Lurkers get asked first. This hasn't been implemented very well at the sub-60 level, and maybe that's something that can be addressed. But at least as far as I'm concerned, Lurkers are part of our family. There was no "need" to switch guilds for that purpose, nor would there ever be. The last thing I need right now is the idea that anyone's been told "Join or Die!" ;)

As to specific reasons WHY Griz and Ab chose to change their tag to CA, I'll have to leave it to them to explain. I'll only say that when they asked me -- knowing that Tal was aware of the situation and had discussed it in depth and "blessed" it -- I wasn't about to deny them and have them go it alone or leave the "family."

[Hillary]

Absolutely, 100%, no question, Carpe Aurum policy is that Lurkers are always welcome.  If we need to fill out a group, Lurkers get asked first.  This hasn't been implemented very well at the sub-60 level, and maybe that's something that can be addressed.  But at least as far as I'm concerned, Lurkers are part of our family.  There was no "need" to switch guilds for that purpose, nor would there ever be.  The last thing I need right now is the idea that anyone's been told "Join or Die!"  ;)

As to specific reasons WHY Griz and Ab chose to change their tag to CA, I'll have to leave it to them to explain.  I'll only say that when they asked me -- knowing that Tal was aware of the situation and had discussed it in depth and "blessed" it -- I wasn't about to deny them and have them go it alone or leave the "family."
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Anyone looking for a further explanation can contact me via whisper in game. For a little while I'd like some time to recover, though, so give me a little breathing room.

:)

[Skandranon]

Tal helped out when Tris and I had almost greyed out quests for Uldaman.

Pssst. That was me. :P Or at least, I know I did that two-hunter two-paladin run through Uldaman with you.

[Phoenix]

You are the webmaster, and that just happens to mean if you want to be able to express your opinion, it may need 50 disclaimers.  It sucks, but it's true.

Oh, come on! This is beyond unfair. Bolty doesn't even run the place anymore, not the website, not the guild, and still he can't be taken as an individual? He should be able to express himself as a person and people should take this opinions as an individual person's opinion.

Christ, being a leader sucks. Even when you quit people think differently of you.

[Quark]

There was also a comment regarding Boltress' lack of appearances lately and not helping the 60s.  Well, Catlyn hasn't been around so much lately either.  My understanding is that she has been playing with friends in other places because there are not as many opportunities for Catlyn to play currently.  Still, she was back for our attempt at MC and is still around on the boards.  Does anyone have a problem with this?  I certainly don't.  Boltress is in a similar situation.  If the right opportunity arises Bolty will dust her off, otherwise she is resting peacefully in Ironforge or wherever waiting for her opportunity.  Noone should be telling anyone else how to play their characters.

I'm sorry, I stressed that point a little too much. However, I'd really like people to know just how different the game is at 60. You're not gaining experience or new skills, but that doesn't mean character development has stopped. In Diablo, doing a 3@30 means you're done. There's nothing left for that character to uniquely do. In Diablo 2, you could gain skill points, but they're obviously not needed when you've already killed Baal in hell.

I only once got passed 70 in Diablo 2, and that was on the SevenLances server. I quickly got to 60 in WoW, and will probably do it with more characters too. But I'm not done with the game yet, unlike D2. I'm still completing quests. I'm still going to unique areas I've never been to before. I'm still getting better as a Rogue, due to both learning and items. From 1 to half the time I've spent at 60, I didn't truly know what playing with a tank is like. That has made me better as an overall player, but it also means I needed to learn how to let the tank tank once I played with one. The vast majority of the time I played before, I used Ambush then just Sinister Strike. Blizzard's change to Backstab and a new dagger have completely changed my play style.

The 60s who have kept playing, and running the end instances raid or 5man, are in a seperate class from those who haven't. Hell, just by getting a new dagger my DPS has increased by at least 20%. One item change and the game is completely different. It's not easy getting all these new items, and it takes effort to make sure everyone is getting what they want (or, in case of bad luck, at least trying to get it). We've spent the last week trying to get an UBRS key so that we can hit that up more consistantly. We're still missing a piece for just one person to have a key. I know the next time I hit MC, I want to finally have my Onyxia key in hand. The extra fire resist helps, but I'll never get it if I can't go to UBRS.

There is nothing wrong with playing alts. If that's what someone enjoys, then go ahead and have your fun. If you haven't gotten to 60 yet, take your time. Play as you want to play. But there are people at 60 here putting a lot of effort into becoming better 60s who can do more in the game. They are getting items they need to become stronger, which makes everyone stronger. They are learning areas so we know how to handle more. They are getting keys so that we can go to new places.

Coming back to a 60 that hasn't been played in a long time does give us another 60 to party with. But at the same time, people who have already paid their time at 60 will be getting nothing new. Quest logs will run thin, items will have dropped, and keys will be there. To be playing alts while "waiting for more 60s" creates a schism where the alt-players are gaining from the people who are spending days in an instance, trying to get one stupid gem to drop, so that people can go to one more place.

Does that bother me? No. If it did, it would be hard for me to be running this instance constantly in the first place, because I know I'm not first through probably fifth on the list for getting my own key. But when people don't play their 60s at all combine with people who talk of the 60s not helping others get there, it ignores all the effort put in to help the people that do get there.

[kandrathe]

Since Onyxia is on a long respawn timer per server, what is the possibility that many people, let alone guilds can get their scales? I'd say let's get to tier 1, before we start fretting about getting to tier 2. But, I don't know why you think we are limited to coordinating a raid event just once a month though, there are certainly enough Lurkers on daily to start running Strat, Scholo, BRD, or LBRS nightly. And, I see from the guild window that they are. Ok, we had a first shot at MC. When's the next one? Probably harder to coordinate with all the drama going on now.

[Phoenix]

Since Onyxia is on a long respawn timer per server, what is the possibility that many people, let alone guilds can get their scales?

I don't know exactly what you mean here, but I'm going to assume (most likely wrongly) that you have misunderstood things.

Onyxia's Lair is an instance, you can do this instance whenever you want (assuming that all the raid members have the key). You can try over and over and over again, without having to wait for anything. However, once you kill her, you're "locked" into a raid instance which basically means that everytime you enter the Onyxia instance portal, you enter the one where you've already killed her - which means that once you've killed her, you can't kill her again until you're no longer "locked in". The locking lasts 5 days for Onyxia, I think.

[Skandranon]

What you ALL are losing sight of is that there is more to this game than fighting Onyxia and the bosses of Molten Core.

I'm not convinced that's the case, Tal. I don't think we're the ones losing sight of it at all. However, I do think something that may be overlooked is that for some of us, Onyxia and Molten Core is what we want to do now. The "there's more to this game" panacea has been thrown out quite frequently over the last few months, and it's starting to lose its lustre. I've seen a lot of it, and even if I hadn't, what I want to see now is Onyxia and Molten Core. I'm sure this is true for a lot of others.

We can still be a successful small guild who raids end game content.
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I think we can, too. I don't believe that our current structure completely precludes end-game content, but we need to do more than we're currently doing, which is organized instance runs every now and then.

[Lissa]

The move of Grizelle and Abattoir is a little more puzzling to me to be perfectly honest.  On one hand I completely understand that the move doesn't change much.  We are close friends with CA and we have instanced/raided with them fairly consistently over the last few weeks.  They haven't moved far.  On the other hand this very situation is what puzzles me.  Why the need to switch "colors" when we have a close relationship with CA anyway?  I don't know all of the guys there well but I have a feeling they would have accepted a few Lurkers on their weekly raids without a problem.  Was there a need to switch guilds for this purpose?  I have no answers here but if this situation hadn't escalated I wouldn't have really questioned it.  They were still close and only a whisper away as Hillary said.[right][snapback]77297[/snapback][/right]

That's my wonder in this too, it just doesn't make sense to me why. NSD going to IA is basically the same was SoD, wanting to raid MC and Onyxia and is understandable, it is kinda hard to come up with 40 people to go after those instances. If it's a time constraint thing, why not just step back and rest, the move to another guild just because of time constraint issues doesn't make much sense to me.

[Skandranon]

Noone should be telling anyone else how to play their characters.

I agree with this statement. However, people who choose to play (or not play) their characters one way can't be exempted from the consequences of that choice. Don't want to mindlessly zerg endgame instances? Completely understandable. But one cannot make that choice and also express wonder that they're not ready for MC/Onyxia.

[Tal]

I'm not convinced that's the case, Tal.  I don't think we're the ones losing sight of it at all.  However, I do think something that may be overlooked is that for some of us, Onyxia and Molten Core is what we want to do now.  The "there's more to this game" panacea has been thrown out quite frequently over the last few months, and it's starting to lose its lustre.  I've seen a lot of it, and even if I hadn't, what I want to see now is Onyxia and Molten Core.  I'm sure this is true for a lot of others. 
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My point is that this doesn't necessarily mean that everyone wants the same thing. I can symphathize with your desires to see MC and Onyxia. I'd like to get there as well but am moving at a slower pace.

[Sabra]

Now I'm nearly ready for Zul and ST, but of course there are few others that are at that level anymore.

Kan, I want you to know that I'm there for you. I'll do ZF and ST with you and Tris and the other 40s who want to and we'll get it all done.

Thanks, to GG, it looks like I'll have done ST after Tuesday. Tough and confusing instance, but the nice part is you can do it in stages. So maybe I'll know a bit about what we have to do. I loved ZF, and providing it's not a 10 pm start, I'll be there. (I'm old. I crap out early and become totally useless.)

Sure, I'm concerned about diluting your exp, but for me ... I'd rather have diluted exp, than no exp at all. Presume that's true for you too, right?

I'm going to do my level best to hold out my hand to those in their higher 40s and I hope to be asked and I'll say yes as much as I can. I really want to give a little time to make it happen for them.

Ironically, while this drama unfolded last night, I was on my 5th frustrating attempt at soloing Mogh, the undying envious of those who are lucky enough to run around in a party of five toons.

Who??? <checks her quest log> Can we kill him together???? ;)

And, I think once we have a regular successful raiding group, we will be attracting more members.

My hope too. I'm not going to kill myself to get us started. I'm just going to try to make it fun, as I try to make all my events. Show or no. I figure if I announce that if it's Sunday it must be Hammerfall, and only 5 people show, well what the hell! We can all to hit SM. Everyone loves SM!

And, then there has been some discussion of alts.&nbsp; I don't want to feel guilty playing them.&nbsp; But, understand that if I had something I could do with Cel, I would be doing that.

There! I wonder how many otheres are thinking just that. I know I think it a lot! I know Mirajj does too. Tris, clearly! Those are the people we as a group need to stand behind and build, IMO.

I have to skill up a miner, because alchemy needs more than herbs and I don't have anyone sending me (nor would I expect them to)a steady stream of Mithril and Thorium ore.&nbsp; Anyway to point here is that it might seem to some a frivolity to be playing an alt, but for me that is not the case.&nbsp; It is a designed self sufficient cadre of toons to support my main characters ultimate goals.

I want to clarify that I am not against playing alts. I am simply for getting things finished and getting things done. In this game it takes numbers.

Thanks so much, Kan, for very open sharing.

[kandrathe]

I don't know exactly what you mean here, but I'm going to assume (most likely wrongly) that you have misunderstood things.

Onyxia's Lair is an instance, you can do this instance whenever you want (assuming that all the raid members have the key). You can try over and over and over again, without having to wait for anything. However, once you kill her, you're "locked" into a raid instance which basically means that everytime you enter the Onyxia instance portal, you enter the one where you've already killed her - which means that once you've killed her, you can't kill her again until you're no longer "locked in". The locking lasts 5 days for Onyxia, I think.
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That is what I meant, the five day respawn. So, even in a "dedicated" guild you might be able to do Onyxia 4 x per month at 2-4 scales ~ 12 /month. So to get 40 or so, would take 4-6 months depending on the number of people. I am assuming that we would need more than 40 people, due to real life conflicts. So, yes, if the Lurkers hit Onyxia once per month rather than 3-4 times per month then it would take 1.5 years or longer.

[kandrathe]

Pssst.&nbsp; That was me.&nbsp; :P&nbsp; Or at least, I know I did that two-hunter two-paladin run through Uldaman with you.
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:) Oh, you human pali's all look alike! Heh, thanks for clarifying. You don't know how much that meant to us lowbie 40 somethings.

[Hillary]

That's my wonder in this too, it just doesn't make sense to me why. NSD going to IA is basically the same was SoD, wanting to raid MC and Onyxia and is understandable, it is kinda hard to come up with 40 people to go after those instances.&nbsp; If it's a time constraint thing, why not just step back and rest, the move to another guild just because of time constraint issues doesn't make much sense to me.
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Because it's been asked twice now, and my headache has abated:

Darian is, and likely will be, my main MT for a long while. Galreth may be 60 (soon) but Flyn is Mark's main. Considering the nature of my WoW relationship with Darian over the past month, it made sense for me to just be part and parcel, engaged in the guild chat as well as the website and the CA culture. The MT/Priest dynamic is pretty important, I think. I tossed around the idea of being a liason between the two guilds, but the more I was on CA's TS server the more I didn't want to fall behind. The more it made sense to make what I considered a sideways move.

As I like to be fair and honest, I will not say that this was my only reason for deciding to switch taberds; I had a few issues in guild that I had difficulty resolving with certain individuals, but long hours of hashing and rehashing has cleared that away. Those reasons aren't nearly as important as perhaps I'd initially thought, and the resolution of the difficulties actually cemented better gaming conditions for everyone, in retrospect.

As for Ab, his decision to come with me was based upon a year of friendship outside of WoW. I can pretty much guarantee that we would be a duo anywhere we go.

[Phoenix]

That is what I meant, the five day respawn.&nbsp; So, even in a "dedicated" guild you might be able to do Onyxia 4 x per month at 2-4 scales ~ 12 /month.&nbsp; So to get 40 or so, would take 4-6 months depending on the number of people.&nbsp; I am assuming that we would need more than 40 people, due to real life conflicts.&nbsp; So, yes, if the Lurkers hit Onyxia once per month rather than 3-4 times per month then it would take 1.5 years or longer.
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That's all true, so this is kind of a useless post, but anyway:

I don't think it would be that much harder to kill Onyxia 6 times a month rather than 4, so in 3 months you can have ~54 scales, which should be enough to reliably make 40-people groups, all with cloaks.

[NotSoDarklord]

"If it's a time constraint thing, why not just step back and rest, the move to another guild just because of time constraint issues doesn't make much sense to me."
SoD told me of being asked to wait 3-4 months ago. Sure it looks more imminent, but I made the decision that I'm just not prepared to wait a few more months to gear up/get organized for MC just to wipe countless times before I even see a named. I choose to play one character, that's how I want to spend my 15 a month, and IA DEFINITELY fits me better. They discourage alts to encourage the loot getting used for maximum character progression. Lurkers tend to encourage alts on the other hand... just too different.

[Phoenix]

To get to Blackwing Lair, and this is just speculation right now, you will need to make a cloak that has a scale of Onyxia.

Actually, Tigole says:
"And to answer the question regarding the key -- No, there is no key to access [Blackwing Lair], although you will have to have access to Upper Blackrock Spire before entering for the first time."