My Thoughts & What I Need

[Hillary]

You may think it's unfair that people take you're opinion as "guild opinion."  But you know what?  Last night, you said nothing to counteract that.  In these posts, I see two sentences to the effect of "don't take my opinion as guild opinion."  That's fine, but it's two sentences in a post of 12 paragraphs.  You are the webmaster, and that just happens to mean if you want to be able to express your opinion, it may need 50 disclaimers.  It sucks, but it's true.
You also specifically said that you don't respect people who have their 60s in one guild, and their alts in the Lurkers.  Does this mean I should have never joined with Mitzy in the first place, since Ramala was in another guild?  More importantly, how would you feel to come back with an alt after that was said?  Wouldn't you feel unwelcome?  Leper, outcast, unclean!  Everytime you log in, you think "some people say I don't belong here".

That and having characters in different guilds makes sense.  Before Contra Malum disbanded, I played Ramala every week night, with the same 5 group, accomplishing the same goals.  Mitzy was a change of breath.  I got tons of guild chat, could solo most of the time, and still party with great people when desired.  Do I want to hit LBRS every night?  No, and that's why I have alts.  Alts themselves are there to break the routine, to give a different playing style.  If people want to have a hardcore main and a casual alt, why should we complain about it?  Raiding isn't always my cup of tea, and when it isn't I'm usually on Mitzy.  You make it sound like I was in the wrong for doing that before we were assimilated.
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Assimilated is a damn fine word, quark. Use it more. People will think you're all smart and stuff.

[Treesh]

Assimilated is a damn fine word, quark.  Use it more.  People will think you're all smart and stuff.
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It fits the situation quite aptly and is not a case of an overblown vocabulary used to make the user seem smarter. "To take in and make a part of a country or community" from the red dictionary on my desk. What other word is quite so fitting for the situation Quark is describing and easily comes to mind? I know you're upset (and rightfully so I think), but making snarky comments not related to the issue at hand isn't going to help the situation any.

[Hillary]

It fits the situation quite aptly and is not a case of an overblown vocabulary used to make the user seem smarter.  "To take in and make a part of a country or community" from the red dictionary on my desk.  What other word is quite so fitting for the situation Quark is describing and easily comes to mind?  I know you're upset (and rightfully so I think), but making snarky comments not related to the issue at hand isn't going to help the situation any.
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I was joking, Treesh. Ramala and I are friends. He knew that. :) No snarkiness. I thought if anything a level of humor was needed to lighten the situation.

[Treesh]

I was joking, Treesh.  Ramala and I are friends.  He knew that. :)  No snarkiness.  I thought if anything a level of brevity was needed.
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Oops. :blush: My mistake then. Nevermind. You didn't see a thing. ;)

[Hillary]

Oops.  :blush: My mistake then.  Nevermind.  You didn't see a thing. ;)
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Gah! You quoted the brevity thing. I just edited that. Meant LEVITY. NOT NEARLY AS DUMB AS I LOOK FOLKS, MOVE ALONG!

:P

[Treesh]

Gah!  You quoted the brevity thing. I  just edited that.  Meant LEVITY. NOT NEARLY AS DUMB AS I LOOK FOLKS, MOVE ALONG!

:P
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:lol: You should have edited quicker. ;)

At least I know now why the comment that seemed to come from out of nowhere. Took me by surprise there.

[Quark]

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Sorry about that, Treesh. Assimilated has become my joke word for the semi-merging, it's even in my sig where Contra Malum used to be :)

I'll just have to get back at Hillary the next time we're both on Teamspeak.

[Pesmerga]

You keep using that word.  I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Princess Bride for the win.

[Hillary]

Princess Bride for the win.
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ANYBODY WANT A PEANUT?

[Sword_of_Doom]

Hello everyone, i have remained on the sidelines of all of this for a long time but i feel i need to respond to what is going on. I am by nature very easy going and mellow and do my best to avoid all conflict and drama in life. I play this game because it is FANTASY, FUN and ESCAPE from real life. That being said i would like to respond to some of Bolty's post.

The Lurkers are not a highly regimented, go-go-go don't-play-alts-or-you're-out, you-must-raid-once-a-month-or-you're-out guild.  At the same time, we're a group of people who have now become a real force (over 70 accounts) with a ton of level 60 players.  Those who got to the top first have been waiting patiently for more to arrive so that end-game content can be seen by all-Lurker parties.

I was the first 60 to leave (that after levelling two 60's) in March and it was for the above reason. Lurkers primarily to me have been a group of like minded gamers that share same game etiquette and manners. Many of you are EXCELLENT observers of the game but realistically will never see the 40 man end game content. The 40 man end game content has been designed for elite players with oodles of uninterrupted play. Most normal people do not have 8 hours straight of play time Monday to Sunday. There is NOTHING wrong with that. WoW was designed to be casual and fit a casual players playstyle. It was also designed for the EQ crowd (hardcore raiders) and you will find the leadership of most of the Stormrage raiding guilds are ex EQ players that brought their raiding mentality into WoW. Two developers with WoW, Furor and Tigole, are ex EQ players who were integral in the end game raiding scene with their Guild, Legacy of Steel. LOS was notorious for exploits and pushing the limits of the game.

Bolty you are contradicting yourself in the rest of your rant by the above statement. You are definitely being unclear on what you really want. From my personal perspective, i maintained all my ties with the Lurkers, even though i took one of my characters to a hardcore raiding guild. Realistically, this guild, the Lurkers, is at the same point i was in February. Skan and Flyn have been working their butts off trying to organize large groups to do end game content. Congratulations on getting a full 40 man raiding group into Molten Core but as i understand, you could not handle the beginning pulls. Are we as a Lurker group going to do that once a month and call that seeing the end game content???? Realistically that will be the case.

There is nothing wrong with what has been created by the Lurker Lounge guild concept. To me it never was a guild per se, but a group of like minded players. Lurkers love to explore and talk about the content and take their time.

This guild is incredibly fun to be in, and a real treat to be in parties for.  The difference between playing pickup groups (of which I've been in many, especially when the guild was smaller) and playing in Lurker parties is immense.  So many of us are willing to help out a fellow Lurker in need.

I had the great priviledge of playing with two very distinct and different groups of people. My first group, Flyndar, Tahapenes, Catlyn, Lochnar, and Rylea all began back in November and we did many groupings on our way to level 60. I remember the very first weeks questing with Lochnar in Loch Modan and Redridge Mountains. They were fun and excellent times.

The second group i had the priviledge of spending time with were Grizelle, Abattoir, and NSD (Sommli). I quested with Grizelle in Stranglehorne Vale and did Scarlet Monastery runs with the group. Once they reached 60 i did many instance runs with this group.

I have been able to maintain friendships and fun with a very large group of the present 60's while be able to FULFILL MY GOALS IN THE GAME (raiding the end game content, Molten Core and Onyxia).

When you get a character to 60 and take off for a "more regimented guild," you are taking a giant whizz on everyone else in the guild.  You may say otherwise, but you are basically taking advantage of the hospitality the guild provides.

The use of inflammatory language puzzles me. The people who left tried to do it in a respectful friendly manner. I am not sure why you feel people "are taking a giant whizz on everyone else in the guild." That is strong language that is far from true. This guild has always been about giving and receiving--not vice versa. Everyone in this guild has been wonderfully generous and helpful. I have done dozens and dozens of instance runs that were not of any benefit to me but were to fellow Lurkers.

There is no requirement that one must join a guild to raid with them.  You might say that "it's easier" to do this, and that's true, so by all means go the easy route!  Screw that guild that you had played in on your way up - now that you're established, you don't need them anymore!

This is where the tone of your rant gets nasty and that saddens me greatly. The Lurker Lounge is not a TRUE guild and never will be. Most recognize that and are more than happy with that. A true guild has structure and officers. A true guild has a CEO (for wont of a better word) that organizes daily raids and keeps attendance. Most importantly, a true guild RECRUITS people to join in their likemindedness. Lurkers are a co-operative of friendly, intelligent fun people and i love the Lurkers dearly for this. I have learned much of this game from three people Skandranon, Lissa and mjdoom. They of all the Lurkers have schooled me in the nuances and depths of the game.

People leaving are not "screwing" the guild. This guild has always been what you put in is what you get out of it. By extension you are saying that about me. But i have a long list of people that i have provided gold, materials and products from November to May 13, 2004 for free. I have given much to this guild and truth be told, apart from knowledge, have received very little back. Do i care? NO, NO NO. I love helping and i love giving. I have maintained ties strongly with this guild because i love the people.

Getting to 60 is not the end of the game, it really is the beginning and thats where the Lurker Lounge does not realistically fit people who want to see all the content in the game. Unfortunately, the the Lurker Lounge cannot cater to two sets of people, casual and hardcore. They will always conflict. I would prefer the Lurkers stay the way i have known them, casual, fun and carefree and not force the whole of the Lurkers into something they do not want to be.

It's especially damning when one says that their level 60 is going to join another guild, but their alts will remain Lurkers.  That's even more bloody offensive than if you just quit all your characters, which is what I'D prefer.  Sure, the Lurkers are good enough for your non-60's, but not for your "real" characters.  My response: go do you-know-what with yourself, because I'm not playing with you anymore.

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt on these statements. If you had that attitude in real life, your circle of friends would be just yourself. This is a GAME Bolty, nothing more or less. Why you as the webmaster would create division and animosity for a FANTASY game, boggles my mind????

Our guild is on the brink of serious regular raiding.  We've had learning-experience trips to Molten Core and we have a GIGANTIC guild on the same server that we have a ridiculously friendly relationship with, the Basin.  All it takes is one person to organize it and take the time, and some regular weekly action could be taking place.  Just ONE person to extend the olive branch to the Basin crowd and get things going!  So instead of being part of the solution, you quit and run off somewhere else.  Never mind the efforts of some Lurkers already to get raids going, working very hard to get things established like the MC run done recently.  It's just easier to quit to somewhere else where this is established already instead of helping those you've been playing with for months to get it going here.

Unfortunately, this paragraph is untrue, Bolty. Flyndar and I have tried building an alliance with the Basin since February. I personally have grouped with many Basiners but their mandate is virtually identical to ours. They are a loose coalition of like minded game etiquette people who play casually. Lots of their 60's have left as well. Some of them are in my guild (in Aeternum). If i followed your advice, i would have waited 3 months to die repeatedly in the beginning of the Molten Core. Is that what this group really wants to do?

The bottom line is, i truly do not believe you really understand what time and resources it takes to form a 40 man raiding group to do the high level content. Let me enlighten you and then i want you to respond that the Lurker Lounge is capable of this.

I am in a high end raiding guild, In Aeternum. We have a guild leader and 5 officers. We have a code of conduct and loot distribution guidelines. We have a guildbank and a website. We also keep attendance of all our raiding activity. Our schedule is this.

Monday--WE raid from 6 PM EST to when we finish which usually is 1 AM EST.
Tuesday--off
Wednesday--We raid from 6 PM EST to when we finish
Thursday--Raid from 6 PM EST onwards
Friday--raid from 6 PM onwards
Saturday--raid from 3PM until 1 AM usually
Sunday--off

If you have a family and job, this type of schedule is not realistic and conducive to your health. Most of my guild is made up of 18-24 year college students who have unlimited time at their disposal.

What amazes me is how the people who leave expect that every member of Lurkers is just going to be completely okay with that, hugs and kisses, sad to see you go, etc.  Well, I'm not.  You're offended by what I'm saying?  Tough.  I'm just as offended that when you hit 60 you decide that our group isn't good enough for you.  So be it.

Isn't that what friendship is all about. Do you really treat your friends like that? Can you honestly tell me that once one of friends decides to do something you don't like you exclude them from your life!?!

You can't please everyone in this world, and you're not pleasing me.  I'm not just going to sit here and get crapped on by you, that's all.

This sums it all up. This is all about your FEELINGS Bolty. You have made this personal when that was not necessary or appropriate. Unfortunately because of your standing as the webmaster you have opened a cavern like fissure in people relationships and may have done irrepairable harm to your own website and so called friends. Your position is unusually harsh and insensitive and frankly reprehensible. Shame on you Bolty!

What I'm saying is, don't expect me to be partying with you (or generally acknowledging you) any time soon.

Cheapshot, cheapshot cheapshot. All respect for you and the Lounge is ended by this statement. Until today, i did not dislike a single person in this guild, it is not my nature or disposition. But your classless, insensitive demeaning rant has left a very sour taste in my mouth. YOU HAVE ABUSED YOUR POWER AND INFLUENCE BOLTY!!!!!! You have taken a wonderful concept and idea and ruined it with a personal philosophy that is divisive.



The Lurker Lounge was a fun place and haven to me. That is no longer the case.

[kandrathe]

And, yet reality time, the only Lurkers above my level (that I recall, so sorry if I missed someone) who has offered to help me out when I get stuck have been Leeah, Sabra, and Tal. In 4 months of playing, that was a handful of evenings of help in getting past difficult to solo content. Sabra came to my aid when I first arrived at STV, and Tal helped out when Tris and I had almost greyed out quests for Uldaman. Now I'm nearly ready for Zul and ST, but of course there are few others that are at that level anymore. Much of my post 40 play, up until level 45, was spent earning money to pay back my pony loan. Mirajj is way past ready for Mauradon, and I hear it is going this weekend, and I'm going to try like hell to get ready too. Those of us not yet 60 want to get there, and we are doing it slowly, and surely. Ironically, while this drama unfolded last night, I was on my 5th frustrating attempt at soloing Mogh, the undying envious of those who are lucky enough to run around in a party of five toons.

So rather than be frustrated by the lack of 60's. Look back at the some of us being stuck and frustrated trying to solo elites at <55, and not ready for LBRS, UBRS, and MC runs. Maybe there is something else that can be done? And, I think once we have a regular successful raiding group, we will be attracting more members.

And, then there has been some discussion of alts. I don't want to feel guilty playing them. But, understand that if I had something I could do with Cel, I would be doing that. I don't have many, but the ones I have are there to support my main, a diversion when I'm bored, frustrated or stuck, and are meant offer the guild a diversity of characters in the future. I'm building a def spec warrior, because maybe the main tank wants to go on vacation. I'm building a holy spec priest, because maybe there will be a time when one more is needed. I have to skill up a miner, because alchemy needs more than herbs and I don't have anyone sending me (nor would I expect them to)a steady stream of Mithril and Thorium ore. Anyway to point here is that it might seem to some a frivolity to be playing an alt, but for me that is not the case. It is a designed self sufficient cadre of toons to support my main characters ultimate goals.

[NotSoDarklord]

" Removing yourself from the guild because we disagree screws over everyone else who agrees with your stance."

I believe I removed myself from the guild because I was blatantly asked to by yourself over the course of the conversation. The humorous part is I had deguilded the night before but was asked to reguild as a lurker and stay until my IA application went through. NSD, haven't you left yet indeed, but what happened happened, gone now.

[Hillary]

Come and ask. Everyone who has ever needed anything from me just came and asked. I've had an open door policy with this guild. My demeanor is not prickly or standoffish, last I checked. Need help? ASK. I'm not a mind reader, nor is anyone else. When 15 people are all talking about quests on guild chat (even if they're difficult) I'm not going to seek them out. Why? Because - ESPECIALLY WITH HUNTERS - there is the expectation that some enjoy the solo play and enjoy the challenge of doing a red quest on their own. One thing coming to mind is Lissa solo'ing that elite in STV last week. Hella hard, but she did it by changing tactics with her pet.

I think I speak for everyone when I sa y that every Lurker (past and present) is interestd in helping others, but effective communication is paramount here. Have you come to any one of our 60's and said "Is there any way you could help us with this? We need a __________." Yes, guildies work together, but you *MUST* take initiative as well. I am not the type of person to just say to a level 45 "Hey, I'll help with that" mainly because a younger Aleri might be able to help you and not zerg your XP - always an added benefit.

You mention our constant raiding as a reason not to ask. A small 60's secret here: we raid constantly because we're bored. ;)

So, the solution: effectively communicating needs and in game desires. I was called in on a Sunken Temple run last week because their priest went linkdead. I'm more than happy to help any guildie - Lurker or CA - if I'm aware that there is difficulty on the table. I don't always read Guild chat or general chat, but I do always read whispers, as was the case here.

It's kind of like verizon, just a phonecall away.

[Hillary]

" Removing yourself from the guild because we disagree screws over everyone else who agrees with your stance."

I believe I removed myself from the guild because I was blatantly asked to by yourself over the course of the conversation.&nbsp; The humorous part is I had deguilded the night before but was asked to reguild as a lurker and stay until my IA application went&nbsp; through.&nbsp; NSD, haven't you left yet indeed, but what happened happened, gone now.
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I think he was referring to me taking my alts off. Sheesh. Pay attention, dorf.

[kandrathe]

Bolty does not speak for me. I respect him for being candid, as I do you (and others) and what you have done here. Please do not walk away because of the opinion of one person (even if he does run the website). He is not the Lurkers, he is one of the Lurkers.

I agree with most of your post, except for that the Lukers are limited to only a friendly group of casual gamers. This has always been a group of hard core gamers, but maybe not to your level of intensity. Are we going to win the race for getting Onyxia's head on a pole, no. But, I think we will get there. I liked your IA schedule, but I doubt if everyone in the guild can participate 5 days per week, every week. And frankly, I'm not interested in running something like say Onyxia 50 times in a row. I'm interested in a quality experience, rather than be required to participate in a raid grind. My hope is that with our quality players, we can figure it out and do it in as few times as needed. And, then repeat for those who have not gone before. I want to see end game content, not live in end game content. I've only played the game since February, so you have much more time into it than me. And, since I have a RL (job, wife, kids, friends) to be concerned about, I would not be playing at the intensity you are saying that IA requires. I fully intend to get there eventually.

When you use terms like *never* to describe my future, it puts the hackles up on my neck. There is no reason why we cannot cater to both groups, for those 20+ hardcore players who are on *every* day, let's grow that to 40+. If that is the magic number.

[Kevin]

I've said a fair bit in this thread. And I'll sum it up again here.

I honestly don't care what happens to the lurkers guild. I can be a raiding guild, it can be a co-op that does a little of everything (though a "little raiding" could be impossible), it could be a training ground where most people get to 60 and then go do other things they want to do.

What I do care about though are the lurkers. I haven't been personally attacked like some here but even if I had been I don't think it would run me off. There have been other internet communities that I have been a part of that I cared more about where I was thrashed harder than what happened here, but it was worth it to stick around because it was simply individual tempers flaring up. That happens with friends and families. It's happened here in the past, and it is happening again now.

I'm hoping that the offended parties give it some time. I'm thinking Bolty was so harsh because he never can be. Several people have said, yeah your position sucks, but no one has given him quarter. Heck that may be exactly why he was so harsh. Maybe he just wanted to hear responses to him and not to a site admin. I don't know.

I still see all sides in this. I share feelings with Bolty, NSD, Hillary, Quark, Tal, Sabra, Sword of Doom, heck everyone who has posted in this thread and probably people who haven't. I also have my own unique feelings.

Today I feel like trying to help moderate and mitigate. I'm glad everyone has said what they have said. I don't pretend that people weren't hurt. I also realize that for some the damage may never be undoable. I would still hope, simply because I care about and enjoy lukers, that everyone give it some time, like tal said.

In my book you're all still Lurkers in the guild or not. In my book if you want to leave the guild and raid for 3 months and come back to the guild, great. Heck we could probably learn a lot from a person who did that. I hope that we figure out a way to have casual raiding and that we can get good enough to get through the content. I want to do that with fellow lurkers. And if for some reason Bolty wants to ban me from the site and tal wants to kick me from the guild and then 3 months later let me back in, I think I would take it if the majority of the people who are here now are still here. But I'm full of weird optimism today so maybe this is the only time I believe I could take a kick in the teeth and still come out smiling. Maybe it's just a side effect of things that are going on in my life right now that some of you know about. Don't care I'm using it as best as I can right now.

I said earlier I'm not sure the guild or the site can survive without a clearer direction. That is wrong. The site will survive. I don't know if it will thrive or be what people want or hope for it to be though.

Anyway, I'll keep being me. I'll keep hoping that if some lurkers are still mad at each other that at least they will all still be lurkers. :) I'll also hope that people start being more civil in the discussion regardless of why they may not have been at first.

[NotSoDarklord]

"There is no requirement that one must join a guild to raid with them. You might say that "it's easier" to do this, and that's true, so by all means go the easy route! Screw that guild that you had played in on your way up - now that you're established, you don't need them anymore!"

First of all this is not true, if I could stay lurkers and raid with IA I would, but it simply cannot be done, the only reason I did it for a few days is because I was already an app.

"It's especially damning when one says that their level 60 is going to join another guild, but their alts will remain Lurkers. That's even more bloody offensive than if you just quit all your characters, which is what I'D prefer. Sure, the Lurkers are good enough for your non-60's, but not for your "real" characters. My response: go do you-know-what with yourself, because I'm not playing with you anymore."

I'm amazed at how turning hostile suddenely makes the situation better. I personally am not in this boat because I only had one serious character, but the thought that I would do best to not start an alt and play with more lurkers just floors me. *shrug* I always felt it was more the happy family mentality, "so sorry to see you go, stop by and see us sometime"

"Our guild is on the brink of serious regular raiding. We've had learning-experience trips to Molten Core and we have a GIGANTIC guild on the same server that we have a ridiculously friendly relationship with, the Basin. All it takes is one person to organize it and take the time, and some regular weekly action could be taking place. Just ONE person to extend the olive branch to the Basin crowd and get things going! So instead of being part of the solution, you quit and run off somewhere else. Never mind the efforts of some Lurkers already to get raids going, working very hard to get things established like the MC run done recently. It's just easier to quit to somewhere else where this is established already instead of helping those you've been playing with for months to get it going here."

This is another issue, Bolty... you have expressed no real interest in raiding to any of us. Whenever we coordinate raids and ask you, you refuse, whenever one of us suggests "Why don't we ask bolty?" it invariably leads to chuckling at the thought that you'd come along. So what's the deal? You expect to come to MC with a group of lurkers without doing any raiding with us along the way? 'Fraid not, I wouldn't let that happen if I were staying, that is no way to forge the relationships and teamwork that is needed in MC. I've grouped nearly every active 60 in the guild on some raid or another, and it's helped me learn a lot about what I can expect from them and how they play, you however never did this. Perhaps you did it because you felt raiding 5 man instances with 10 is cheesy, perhaps you felt it was boring, but it's the best prep you can get to going into MC especially since 15 man groups in UBRS aren't exactly a cakewalk at times.

"There are so many 60's in this guild who've been waiting for more 60's to come up - and now that you've arrived, you're quitting? How do you think that makes some of them feel? My level 60 Priest is waiting for raid action - the only reason I missed the last one is because I was busy that day - and your leaving doesn't exact move that along."

I didn't get to 60 first, I can't change that. I did however get to 60, wait a month and a half to two months while raiding with all the 60's that even stuck their head in the channel getting my set as I in turn helped them get theirs. Sure you've waited longer, but then again you haven't done what we have, you haven't geared up with endless runs of endgame instances that just have become clinical and trivial. I could start an alt, but I frankly don't want to, I'll play my 15 bucks a month my way.

"What amazes me is how the people who leave expect that every member of Lurkers is just going to be completely okay with that, hugs and kisses, sad to see you go, etc. Well, I'm not. You're offended by what I'm saying? Tough. I'm just as offended that when you hit 60 you decide that our group isn't good enough for you. So be it. You can't please everyone in this world, and you're not pleasing me. I'm not just going to sit here and get crapped on by you, that's all. So let's all get in an uproar."

To be frank? You were one of the last people I was least concerned with pissing off again due to the fact that you have a 60, and yet have not tried whatsoever to help us organize or go on any of our near nightly raids. You can go into MC without gearing up, but that doesn't mean everyone can. If you sincerely want to take a bunch of rogues with 0 FR... a bunch of priests/mages with quest rewards on and virtually no mana pool then frankly you're doing it all wrong. In molten core you will learn to depend on tanks that are really better described as "beasts", these tanks HAVE to gear up whether or not you feel that raiding is easymode. Raiding scholo/strath/brs is something that everyone should be REQUIRED to do to gear up. If not for their items then for someone elses.

"Again, this is MY opinion and does not represent the stance of the guild. With any guild of appropriate size you will find differences of opinion, and it can be impossible to get along with everyone. Quitting a guild because you don't get along with every single member is a silly idea as well. What I'm saying is, don't expect me to be partying with you (or generally acknowledging you) any time soon. I will refrain from sniping people in guild chat in order to keep the peace from now on. I just got sick of the attitude of certain members yesterday and it came to a head."

People were being civil.... if you have a problem with me, griz, jon then don't type "/g "before you expresss it. I've had quite a few people talk to me via tells or teamspeak, and I've discussed it with them without having to do it publicly.


minor edit: missed a "least"

[Hillary]

I've said a fair bit in this thread.&nbsp; And I'll sum it up again here.

I honestly don't care what happens to the lurkers guild.&nbsp; I can be a raiding guild, it can be a co-op that does a little of everything (though a "little raiding" could be impossible), it could be a training ground where most people get to 60 and then go do other things they want to do.

What I do care about though are the lurkers.&nbsp; I haven't been personally attacked like some here but even if I had been I don't think it would run me off.&nbsp; There have been other internet communities that I have been a part of that I cared more about where I was thrashed harder than what happened here, but it was worth it to stick around because it was simply individual tempers flaring up.&nbsp; That happens with friends and families.&nbsp; It's happened here in the past, and it is happening again now.

I'm hoping that the offended parties give it some time.&nbsp; I'm thinking Bolty was so harsh because he never can be.&nbsp; Several people have said, yeah your position sucks, but no one has given him quarter.&nbsp; Heck that may be exactly why he was so harsh.&nbsp; Maybe he just wanted to hear responses to him and not to a site admin.&nbsp; I don't know.&nbsp;

I still see all sides in this.&nbsp; I share feelings with Bolty, NSD, Hillary, Quark, Tal, Sabra, Sword of Doom, heck everyone who has posted in this thread and probably people who haven't.&nbsp; I also have my own unique feelings.

Today I feel like trying to help moderate and mitigate.&nbsp; I'm glad everyone has said what they have said.&nbsp; I don't pretend that people weren't hurt.&nbsp; I also realize that for some the damage may never be undoable.&nbsp; I would still hope, simply because I care about and enjoy lukers, that everyone give it some time, like tal said.

In my book you're all still Lurkers in the guild or not.&nbsp; In my book if you want to leave the guild and raid for 3 months and come back to the guild, great.&nbsp; Heck we could probably learn a lot from a person who did that.&nbsp; I hope that we figure out a way to have casual raiding and that we can get good enough to get through the content.&nbsp; I want to do that with fellow lurkers.&nbsp; And if for some reason Bolty wants to ban me from the site and tal wants to kick me from the guild and then 3 months later let me back in, I think I would take it if the majority of the people who are here now are still here.&nbsp; But I'm full of weird optimism today so maybe this is the only time I believe I could take a kick in the teeth and still come out smiling.&nbsp; Maybe it's just a side effect of things that are going on in my life right now that some of you know about.&nbsp; Don't care I'm using it as best as I can right now.

I said earlier I'm not sure the guild or the site can survive without a clearer direction.&nbsp; That is wrong.&nbsp; The site will survive.&nbsp; I don't know if it will thrive or be what people want or hope for it to be though.

Anyway, I'll keep being me.&nbsp; I'll keep hoping that if some lurkers are still mad at each other that at least they will all still be lurkers.&nbsp; :)&nbsp; I'll also hope that people start being more civil in the discussion regardless of why they may not have been at first.
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It's better to get the angst out now. Bottling it ain't good, but this thread - like all threads - has gone in many directions and it's getting harder to contain. Things will settle down because they always do. Feathers have been ruffled in many ways. Some people will stay, some people will not. If we are all smart, we will use this as a stepping stool and look towards the future, look for ways to improve the status quo so that things like this don't happen again.

Tal, Bolty, and everyone has invested so much energy into the guild (and the site) that we're all very prickly about it. It hits close to home, and nobody like having their home attacked.

[NotSoDarklord]

I think he was referring to me taking my alts off. Sheesh.&nbsp; Pay attention, dorf.
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Then I shall rant on his inability to convey his point to me! :P Ok then, my response to everything in general is somewhere below.

[Sword_of_Doom]

Bolty does not speak for me.&nbsp; I respect him for being candid, as I do you (and others) and what you have done here.&nbsp; Please do not walk away because of the opinion of one person (even if he does run the website).&nbsp; He is not the Lurkers, he is one of the Lurkers.&nbsp;

I agree with most of your post, except for that the Lukers are limited to only a friendly group of casual gamers.&nbsp; This has always been a group of hard core gamers, but maybe not to your level of intensity.&nbsp; Are we going to win the race for getting Onyxia's head on a pole, no.&nbsp; But, I think we will get there.&nbsp; I liked your IA schedule, but I doubt if everyone in the guild can participate 5 days per week, every week.&nbsp; And frankly, I'm not interested in running something like say Onyxia 50 times in a row.&nbsp; I'm interested in a quality experience, rather than be required to participate in a raid grind.&nbsp; My hope is that with our quality players, we can figure it out and do it in as few times as needed.&nbsp; And, then repeat for those who have not gone before.&nbsp; I want to see end game content, not live in end game content.&nbsp; I've only played the game since February, so you have much more time into it than me.&nbsp; And, since I have a RL (job, wife, kids, friends) to be concerned about, I would not be playing at the intensity you are saying that IA requires.&nbsp; I fully intend to get there eventually.

When you use terms like *never* to describe my future, it puts the hackles up on my neck.&nbsp; There is no reason why we cannot cater to both groups, for those 20+ hardcore players who are on *every* day, let's grow that to 40+.&nbsp; If that is the magic number.
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Mongojerry has said that the developer's vision for this game is item progression, not character progression. Thats why there is tier 1 Epics in Molten Core and eventually there will Tier 2 epics in Blackwing Lair. To get these said items does require great amounts of time. Levels 1-59 are very casual friendly, but 60 is a whole different ball of wax. It pretty well is a different game at 60 and from what i can see, very few people will ever get to see.

To get to Blackwing Lair, and this is just speculation right now, you will need to make a cloak that has a scale of Onyxia. To do Blackwing Lair you are going to need a raid party of 40 people. Usually Onyxia drops 2 to 4 scales so if you are unlucky you will have to at least kill her 20 times to get a 40 person raid party outfitted with a cloak to get into Blackwing Lair. Would you say thats realistic ever for the Lurkers? And again i say, what is wrong with the Lurkers not being able to do that.

Unfortunately there is two parts to this game, hardcore (EQ defined because of Tigole and Furor) and casual (that includes hardcore elements. These two playstyles are worlds apart and do not mesh, at best they conflict. I am not certain Lurker Lounge wants to do the above. Why is there so much angst about that. I see a lot of Diablo 1 and 2 expectation where great gobs of time were not needed to accomplish end game things. This is whole different species to that. It does require huge chunks of time which realistically very few people have. Tackling Onyxia once a month would mean it would take the the Lurker Lounge 1.5 years to get to Blackwing Lair. By then, my guess would be that WoW would be on Tier 4 gear. Anyways, those are some random thoughts from me.