My Thoughts & What I Need

[Sabra]

Okay, we've been shaken, there's no doubt. I understand that Sommli was driven from the channel tonight with a terrible swift sword. He and I go way back, and I wouldn't have gotten mounted at 40 had it not been for him, so farewell, NSD, and good luck. Not all Lurkers feel you used us. Not this Lurker.

This Lurker only plays one character. Her character is 54. Her character and others like her character - those Lurker characters in their 50s - are the immediate future of this guild. They are the ones who are can move your raiding aspirations a reality. They are the ones who will flesh out your parties. IMO, the 50s should be the immediate and considered focus of this group and we need to band together to finish up their levels and get on with it! There aren't many of us in our 50s, it's true, but that's because this guild stumbles under the weight of Altitis.

I've been involved in a lot of RL groups over the years, always in positions of leadership. One thing I've learned, at some point in time somebody has to stand up for the group, take the hits and play a little hard ball. So sure... I'll do that.

Here goes .. If Lurker Raids, if playing in Molten Core, if seeing the endgame content fully really means anything to you, quite playing your alts and haul out your highest level characters. Make a commitment to foster a player pool that can get us out of the talking stages and into the endgame. Make it a rule. <oh oh! that's a dirty word in Lurkers.> Make it a policy that Lurkers get other Lurkers where they need to go for the good of the group. There is just no one that's going to get hurt from a policy like that. The 60s do for the 50s who do for the 40s who do for the 30s, right straight down the line. Make it a rule and this group will thrive like no other on Stormrage.

If it hadn't been for people like Ruv and GG, Treesh and Tal making these sorts of sacrifices for me, I would never have gotten to 54. It works! If we as a group do this and commit to this intensely throughout the summer months, make a decision to put our time and effort where our mouths are and foster these 50s, we can only win.

And in exchange for that commitment, I will make a commitment to this group. I will carve out the time to organize a regular raid group for Lurkers from their high 30s up [B]starting now.[B]. No, it won't be Molten Core. It'll be PvP in places like Stonard and Hammerfall, but it will be fun and we will practice and learn how to raid effectively as a group, while fostering a little much needed team spirit. My events are always successful and fun. You've seen that.

Let's quit bitching and get to crackin'. That's how I run my life. How do you run yours?

So here we go...

Mirajj has a Mar quest going grey in his log because he can't get people to run with him. So Mirajj, here's my commitment to you. I'm in. 100%. Count on me. I'll drop some stuff and pick up the quests for Maraudon, or however you spell it, and I'll be ready to go with you. I'm there. I can start any weeknight but Tuesday about 6 pm server. I'm free most of the time on the weekend. Who else? 60s welcome on that one for sure! He just needs an escort and I'm just in it for him. don't even really care if I have the quests, except that they will get me to 60 faster.

Sabramage needs to finish Sunken Temple. I'd like to do it this weekend. I'd like to do it with LD, Aleri and Gnolack and we'd need a 5th who is also in his/her mid to upper 50s, as Treesh prefers the challenge of a group that's close in level. But i'm not fussy. Who's in? Any volunteers?

What do you say, Lurkers? No pain, no gain.

[Garrin]

Heh, i was just talkin to miod about this today. He keeps buggin me to get to 60 so we can raid together, so i told him to come power level me till i'm there. We laughed, but it works. ^_-

A good plan indeed for the future of the guild, and good for securing the loyalty of newer members later down the road.

-Garrin

[Kevin]

First, despite me being one of the 50's who has helped you, I won't be picking up Gnolack's pace for anything. I've enjoyed all the grouping and assistance from Littledude, Taunshu, Mirajj, and Sabramage (and of course Aleri because we are a duo) that I have gotten, and I have managed to not really slow that group down too much. However while I look forward to raiding and I will most like raid a fair bit I just don't really want to push him.

As for Sunken Temple. I did some organizing tonight. Mirajj, Littledude, Aleri, and Gnolack, and I assumed Sabramage but you were offline while I was yakking, are going Monday or Tuesday night since Mirajj is out all weekend.

I wrangled Shalandrax, Pavis, Taunshu, Taranna and Etheramwen for Zul'Farrak tomorrow night.

I got Littledude, Pavis, Gnolack and Aleri commited to Mauradon for Saturday night. I was hoping to drag a Sabramage with me on that too. :)

As far as being willing to help, sure I am. I have a char in the 50's, 40's and 30's. Balador isn't tied into a duo and I'm willing to go anywhere with him. Gnolack is tied in with Aleri, but Treesh and I both pretty much agreed that once ST and Mauradon are done for both of them that it won't be that bad for us to split them up more often if one of is feels like playing one and the other doesn't. The same will apply to Taranna and Etheramwen once they get up to that range as well. However I'm a moody person and I need to be in the right frame of mind to zerg or play certain classes. That is part of the reason for my altitis and part of the reason for my pace of play. :) Now despite all that there have been more Gnolack twitches lately, and I do want to see him tanking Onxyia or similar things. I think a Gnome MT in a raid would just have a cool factor that other races couldn't bring. :)

I also don't see Lurkers in other guilds as a "loss". I had my huge post earlier about somethings that I think would help the site and while I had guild in mind I also just wanted it for the general Lurker population. Most ex-guild members are on my friends list and I figure they will come back and raid with us while in thier new guilds if we ask them too. Of course I never saw the lurkers guild as something that had a goal. It's just a group of like minded people playing the game together. I don't know if we need to be pushed into being a raiding guild or not. I know that it would up the enjoyment of the game for some Lurkers, but I know it would also lessen it for others. Ah well just my ramblings.

[Hillary]

Okay, we've been shaken, there's no doubt. I understand that Sommli was driven from the channel tonight with a terrible swift sword. He and I go way back, and I wouldn't have gotten mounted at 40 had it not been for him, so farewell, NSD, and good luck. Not all Lurkers feel you used us. Not this Lurker.

So I'm going to be unpopular here. I have friends in Lurkers. Good friends, and what transpired there tonight - brought on by Jon and I going to Carpe Aurum - very soon made its way to my pointed little ears. I was absolutely mortified, hurt, and angered by it all. Sabra opened this up, and I'm going to finish it.

I have grouped with 2 rogues for almost 25 levels. We have been a trio, to the point that SoD would ask me where my rogues were if I was off on my own. Jon (Abattoir) and I were friends before this game, so we were an obvious pair. But then NSD (aka Curufin, aka Sommli) came along. We were the same level, and we had the same quests, not to mention a love of sarcastic humor. It was an immediate hit. We adventured together straight up to 60 and forged a very good friendship along the way.

That being said, I know him well, and I like to think I know Jon and I pretty well.

The very idea that ANY of us used Lurkers baffles me. NSD gave time and money to anyone who needed it, from arranging guild events to raiding and helping out lower levelled characters. He was incredibly generous, lending funds and resources to those who asked. Two guild pony loans came out of his pocket, IIRC. He went on quests multiple times for people that needed them, even if he'd been done for weeks at a time. Arethor can vouch for this. To say that he USED anyone is shortsighted and insulting, and he's owed a huge apology.

The reasoning behind him leaving is similar to my own: a need for a more regimented guild. Lurkers' strength - the low pressure atmosphere that lends itself to great personal relationships - is also their curse when it comes to end game 40 man raiding. A hard line is needed there, because one person's mistake can mean 39 other characters wipe. Someone with the ability to manage such a large group - and keep them engaged - is required. If an individual stood up with THAT level of charisma and strength in Lurkers, it could be misconstrued as trying to force the lurkers into what they're not: a true guild. GG said it very well in his other post: high end raiding will engage some and absolutely repel others.

It's a Catch 22.

This was something I pondered at length, and in my own estimation, I felt that I didn't have the time or energy to try to 1) Be that person to organize such a massive feat or 2) wade through the touch and go that the Lurkers will have to endure to figure out the happy medium between true guild and not true guild. I needed something clear cut and plain, lacking foggy area. My life is too hectic at this juncture for me to be bogged down in haziness. CA offered a clarity I warmed to over time, and the best part? They were CLOSE to Lurkers. I could have my friends and the regiment my gameplay demanded.

NSD would voice a similar story, I'm sure, because I've heard similar things from his mouth.

So it's not that Lurkers aren't good enough. It's a fabulous place to grow up. Great people, great times, but just like any other establishment, there are weaknesses. And with anything, there are many ways to approach such weaknesses. Some people will try to change them - improve upon what they have, some people will accept them as status quo and go as if nothing happened, and some people will choose to look elsewhere for opportunity.

The rogues and the priest fall into that last category.

When the decision to leave was discussed between the three, NSD, Abattoir, and Grizelle weighed the pros and cons of such a huge leap. It wasn't easy. It was emotionally draining to begin with. To have something as negative as this occur just as you're about to close what we all considered to be a happy chapter in our online lives makes it very bitter.

I think I've ranted enough here, and if relations are strained, so be it. I'm not the type to keep my mouth shut when something I consider unfair has occurred. But I know that I (and Jon, and NSD) never used this guild. I've tried to help people as best I could with my time, my healing, my money, and anything else I had to give. I did these things because I respected who Lurkers were - who the people were. All I asked in return is the same level of respect, and tonight, I didn't get that. I got a whole truckload of upset.

I'm very disappointed with the whole situation.

[Kevin]

My ealier post was made with no knowledge of what happened and I still only know what has been said in the posts in this thread. I was a bit confused by Sabra's comments to be honest.

I will however come here and say that I can't think of anyone who could be accused of using the Lurkers. I have stuff sitting in banks and mailboxes and on characters that has come from everyone that I can recall that has left the guild. I didn't play with a lot of them since they were generally people who enjoyed leveling faster and doing the end game content more, but that still goes for quite a few current lurkers. :)

Heck when Mongo's vision statement even says people are encouraged to join other guilds how could being in the Lurkers guild and then leaving ever be considered a form of using us. Well a person who joins gets a big loan or lots of items and then leaves the guild, sure, but the lurkers who have left have been just the opposite. We can't be used for helping to teach people to be better players either, heck that is what we are here for!

I'm sorry to hear that there is a bad taste over this departure. I'm sad to see people go. I've always looked forward to the end of the sweet time I have been spending leveling to play with the Lurkers who have been there for awhile and didn't have lower alts I could hook up with. I'm hoping that feelings mend well enough that I can still do that even if we aren't all under the same banner.

At this stage I don't even care what was said by who, despite being a nosy person by nature. I'm just hoping people stay happy enough to stay lurkers and maybe come out and contribute to some strategy discussions and hook up with me in game sometime. :)

[Artega]

I'm not going to pretend like I know anything about the circumstances discussed, but Hillary's description of the Lurker guild is similar to the guild I'm in on Bloodscalp.

As I've described Leviathan often, we're basically a chatroom with its own tabard. While we have a few 60's and various others, we don't have enough people to do serious raiding, and many of our 60's lack the experience necessary to do efficient raiding. While I often wish there were more raids going on, I stick around for the camaraderie, not the gaming. If I were playing WoW soley for the gaming, I would have stopped playing well before I hit level 60 (and rerolled a month later); WoW is one of the most mind-numbingly boring games I have ever played, but the people I've met on it are great to hang around with, so I continue paying my $15 a month.

[kandrathe]

I observed the conversation. It was a frank and very brief discussion, and it was instigated by not just yours, but the trend of multiple 60's moving on.

I think there are many high level people who have been biding their time waiting for a critical mass, which to them seems to be slipping away. I was excited by our last Sabra/Flyn organized event, at how far we have come to get a significant sized and powerful raid together. The angst is to see such quality players leave, which then places more pressure on the ones that remain to wait just a little longer (or maybe they won't wait). I can speak for myself, and I am saddened by every departure as I think it diminishes what we are and delays us from being what we can be. You were a part of that group that got to the top early, then another reached it, and Sabra and her group are drawing near, and I am in another group a few levels back. Now I see another group behind me.

I'm not unique in that I've been helped immensly by many Lurkers, and in return I extend my hand wherever I can to give others a boost up as well. It was just 3 hours earlier I was telling Tris that I think the Lurkers are at the point where we need to start keeping a schedule as the Basin does, such that players know when they can jump in on particular content. But trust me, it is just as hard to organize a run at BFD as it is to go to BRD, or LBRS. So let's evolve into something else that suits the 40 or 50 of us that are playing this game.

We are not a recruiting guild, so we have a limited pool of talent from which to draw. It is up to the ones in front to decide to wait, help build, or move on as they see fit. But understand that we all have an equally huge investment in time and effort into this fun game, and again speaking for myself, I too fully intend to be standing shoulder to shoulder with Lurkers in the near future fighting Onyxia (and dying spectacularly too).

[Hillary]

Cel, I respect that immensely, and it was well put, but the premise of this guild was a respect for other players. I can highlight MANY points in the "mission statement" that point to that. Mongo specifically states that the Lurkers are a webboard guild and anyone should feel encouraged to go to a more structured guild if they see fit, because the nature of Lurkers does not necessarily lend itself to some of us (having zerged every major dungeon oh, A LOT) advancing our game. Numbers is a problem with Lurkers, yes, but so is structure and build. Could something be done? Yes. But again, that's going into unchartered territory and frankly, it's unnerving to think about, and it brings up the question at what point is the individual player's enjoyment of the game forfeited for the greater good. That's not what people pay for. And with the numbers and structure we would need to pull off Onyxia, waiting could take a very long time. I've been patient.

But . . .

No one has to like that we left. It's flattering that people cared at all, but there is a certain expectation of grace that goes along with respecting our decision. I felt that was attacked last night, and it went over poorly.

[Sabra]

First, despite me being one of the 50's who has helped you, I won't be picking up Gnolack's pace for anything.&nbsp; I've enjoyed all the grouping and assistance from Littledude, Taunshu, Mirajj, and Sabramage (and of course Aleri because we are a duo) that I have gotten, and I have managed to not really slow that group down too much.&nbsp; However while I look forward to raiding and I will most like raid a fair bit I just don't really want to push him.

See! This is good. Really really good, because we need to know where our members stand with their goals for their characters and how they want to play. Thank you, GG!

As for Sunken Temple.&nbsp; I did some organizing tonight.&nbsp; Mirajj, Littledude, Aleri, and Gnolack, and I assumed Sabramage but you were offline while I was yakking, are going Monday or Tuesday night since Mirajj is out all weekend.

I will be there Monday. Tuesday is problematic, but I think I can move a commitment to Thursday. I'll make a call. Should not be a problem. Count me in. I can start anytime after 7pm server. I only need "Into the Depths," which I got back after it disapeared from my quest log, and the Boss Fights. Very excited about this!

I wrangled Shalandrax, Pavis, Taunshu, Taranna and Etheramwen for Zul'Farrak tomorrow night.

If anyone drops or has a conflict, let me know. I'll gladly go, just for those two amazing fights.

I got Littledude, Pavis, Gnolack and Aleri commited to Mauradon for Saturday night.&nbsp; I was hoping to drag a Sabramage with me on that too.&nbsp; :)

I'm there! I'll pick up the quests tonight. Just a word here. Mirajj gets off at 10pm server time. Is there anyway that we can help him get that last quest done if the timinig works out right? Sounds like fun and I haven't partied with Bun in awhile. And as we all know, when you party with Bun, you PARTY with Bun!

As far as being willing to help, sure I am.&nbsp; I have a char in the 50's, 40's and 30's.&nbsp; Balador isn't tied into a duo and I'm willing to go anywhere with him.&nbsp; Gnolack is tied in with Aleri, but Treesh and I both pretty much agreed that once ST and Mauradon are done for both of them that it won't be that bad for us to split them up more often if one of is feels like playing one and the other doesn't.&nbsp; The same will apply to Taranna and Etheramwen once they get up to that range as well.&nbsp;

Ditto. I only have the one character that's worth much, but La Mage is willing to help out high 40s as needed. Whisper me or PM me here.

Like I said, Do or Die for Lurkers! But it's got to be about most of us, not just some of us. We've all gotta "get there" if that's where we want to go.

However I'm a moody person and I need to be in the right frame of mind to zerg or play certain classes.&nbsp; That is part of the reason for my altitis and part of the reason for my pace of play.&nbsp; :)&nbsp; Now despite all that there have been more Gnolack twitches lately, and I do want to see him tanking Onxyia or similar things.&nbsp; I think a Gnome MT in a raid would just have a cool factor that other races couldn't bring.

Respect for the make up of my fellow players is twice as important to me as achieving my own goals for Sabramage. And that is a most illuminating statement about Altitis. I always attributed it to fecklessness. Very enlightening. Thanks, GG.

I also don't see Lurkers in other guilds as a "loss".&nbsp; I had my huge post earlier about somethings that I think would help the site and while I had guild in mind I also just wanted it for the general Lurker population.&nbsp; Most ex-guild members are on my friends list and I figure they will come back and raid with us while in thier new guilds if we ask them too.

Ditto. You've got to go where you feel you belong. Again, you've got to respect the players behind the character, IMO.

Of course I never saw the lurkers guild as something that had a goal.

Glad to know you're not delusional! ;)

It's just a group of like minded people playing the game together.&nbsp; I don't know if we need to be pushed into being a raiding guild or not.

No push at all. I'm just offering. A lot of people loved those raids at the party.

I know that it would up the enjoyment of the game for some Lurkers, but I know it would also lessen it for others.&nbsp; Ah well just my ramblings.

Exceptional ramblings. Thank you so much for your 2g, GG. I'm excited that we'll be doing all these instances. This is wonderful.

And I'm also amazed that so far, I haven't gotten flamed, but it's only a little after 7 AM. Day's young. ;)

[Bolty]

I'm very disappointed with the whole situation.
[right][snapback]77209[/snapback][/right]

I'm the one making the accusations and complaining, so I'm the one who should be responding here. And keep in mind that while you read this below and get wildly offended by my opinion (and you will, because I'm not being fluffy-nice-nice, hugs and kisses all around, but instead calling it as I see it), this is NOT the opinion of the guild. This is MY opinion. Many don't share it, and some do but won't say it because they don't want conflict. I will not name names.

If you think you're disappointed with the whole situation, you should get a view of my brain on this. By the way, it's not the decision of you specifically leaving, it's the general "now-that-I'm-60-I'm-leaving"ness of a few players lately that brought this to a head for me.

The Lurkers are not a highly regimented, go-go-go don't-play-alts-or-you're-out, you-must-raid-once-a-month-or-you're-out guild. At the same time, we're a group of people who have now become a real force (over 70 accounts) with a ton of level 60 players. Those who got to the top first have been waiting patiently for more to arrive so that end-game content can be seen by all-Lurker parties.

This guild is incredibly fun to be in, and a real treat to be in parties for. The difference between playing pickup groups (of which I've been in many, especially when the guild was smaller) and playing in Lurker parties is immense. So many of us are willing to help out a fellow Lurker in need.

When you get a character to 60 and take off for a "more regimented guild," you are taking a giant whizz on everyone else in the guild. You may say otherwise, but you are basically taking advantage of the hospitality the guild provides.

There is no requirement that one must join a guild to raid with them. You might say that "it's easier" to do this, and that's true, so by all means go the easy route! Screw that guild that you had played in on your way up - now that you're established, you don't need them anymore!

It's especially damning when one says that their level 60 is going to join another guild, but their alts will remain Lurkers. That's even more bloody offensive than if you just quit all your characters, which is what I'D prefer. Sure, the Lurkers are good enough for your non-60's, but not for your "real" characters. My response: go do you-know-what with yourself, because I'm not playing with you anymore.

Our guild is on the brink of serious regular raiding. We've had learning-experience trips to Molten Core and we have a GIGANTIC guild on the same server that we have a ridiculously friendly relationship with, the Basin. All it takes is one person to organize it and take the time, and some regular weekly action could be taking place. Just ONE person to extend the olive branch to the Basin crowd and get things going! So instead of being part of the solution, you quit and run off somewhere else. Never mind the efforts of some Lurkers already to get raids going, working very hard to get things established like the MC run done recently. It's just easier to quit to somewhere else where this is established already instead of helping those you've been playing with for months to get it going here.

There are so many 60's in this guild who've been waiting for more 60's to come up - and now that you've arrived, you're quitting? How do you think that makes some of them feel? My level 60 Priest is waiting for raid action - the only reason I missed the last one is because I was busy that day - and your leaving doesn't exact move that along.

What amazes me is how the people who leave expect that every member of Lurkers is just going to be completely okay with that, hugs and kisses, sad to see you go, etc. Well, I'm not. You're offended by what I'm saying? Tough. I'm just as offended that when you hit 60 you decide that our group isn't good enough for you. So be it. You can't please everyone in this world, and you're not pleasing me. I'm not just going to sit here and get crapped on by you, that's all. So let's all get in an uproar.

Again, this is MY opinion and does not represent the stance of the guild. With any guild of appropriate size you will find differences of opinion, and it can be impossible to get along with everyone. Quitting a guild because you don't get along with every single member is a silly idea as well. What I'm saying is, don't expect me to be partying with you (or generally acknowledging you) any time soon. I will refrain from sniping people in guild chat in order to keep the peace from now on. I just got sick of the attitude of certain members yesterday and it came to a head.

I now await the cruel punctures of incoming arrows...feel free to tell me "but Bolty, it's not like that" all you like. I know that some of you agree with me to some extent, but may wish to remain silent. That's fine with me, too - it's just that somebody had to say it. And I won't apologize.

-Bolty

[Kevin]

I'm all about worms lately even if I am a hugs and kisses guy. So, thanks for posting this Bolty. I didn't really understand the 60's who have been waiting point of view because I'm not there. I knew I was part of the "problem" from your side of the fence but I didn't think about it much. I'm glad to see the other side expressed because after reading it I see the validity (like you can validate and opinion...).

I understand how we could be seen as being used. Of course I still don't mind seeing people go, but I'm a moody person so I respect whims a bit more. But now I have sympathy with all three sides (3? the people who left, the waiting 60's and the slow movers and you know what since we're all individuals there are probably more than that). I like having more understanding. So I guess I was wrong, I do care what happened even if I didn't think I did.

Heh, crazy stuff. And sure I'm a conflict avoider, and sure the expression of my opinion changes based on that (and the fact that I don't have a lot of hard and fast opinions). Yeah I'd like to see everyone make-up and be happy too, and some of that is for selfish reasons, because there is a part of me that wants a big pool of 60's waiting for me when I take my selfish sweet time to get there. So, yeah, I'm hoping that Bolty's post and my little ramble here can actualy help people be happier. Oh what a nut I am.

[Alrin]

Sommli, Abattoir and Grizelle have all been 60 for a loooong time now.
It's not exactly as if they just up and left the guild once they capped for greener pastures.
*shrugs*
Can you honestly blaim someone for being close to burned out when it comes to organizing and getting people together that they just want to relax and not have that kind of burden?
And honestly, getting 15 people together for UBRS or something similar is fairly EASY.
Compared to getting 40 Lurkers together for Onyxia alt. MC is NOT easy.
I would say you need atleast 60-70 toons that are 60 to be sure that you will get a full regiment of raiders.
There's always people that show up late, dont show up, forget the day, have to go afk 90% of the time, have lag issues and so on etc etc.
Doing 40-man raids takes enormous organizing efforts and a will of iron to keep people in check. One persons mistake will wipe the 39 other.

Anyway. I'm done ranting. And as for the I-wont-party-with-you-anymore-attitude? Sheesh. Relax.

[Hillary]

You're entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine.

So while there's crapping going on . . .

I've been 60 for a while now, putting raids together almost nightly. In fact, more than one raid a night. Darian made an overture from Carpe Aurum to tank for Lurkers because he liked our gameplay. I've done everything I can to foster that partnership, because we need him more than the other way around. I think because of my efforts, more 60's have been able to do more than they were able to do before. Arrogant, perhaps, but absolutely true. And that's word of mouth from someone who's been in your guild for a long freaking time. (Just so we're clear, that what one of your oldest members said to me so you don't think I mean ME).

You're taking offense that we're leaving , but you've either 1) not had the pleasure or 2) not had the interest of organizing for the guild and the various headaches that go along with it. It's not a cup of tea. There have been nights where I've been so frazzled trying to keep large groups of people happy that I've had to log off and breathe because I thought I was going to either cry or explode. Sometimes I did both. Tal's been there to listen, because he's my friend and got me into the guild.

After a while, the stress nixed the fun, and that's when I knew something was drastically wrong.

You're offended that I'm leaving, and you know what? I didn't want to, but I can't handle what it took to get the Lurkers on the same page. It's been said before by people smarter than I am that trying to organize the lurkers is like trying to organize a bunch of cats. Very independent people. So it boiled down to a few things for me (and I bet these reasons stand out for others, too):

*I don't want to baby toon all the time. You might love it. Well, I worked for my 60, and I want to experience it. Alts are great, but that's not what I want to do.

*I don't want to wait 3 more months to get around to things. I've done scholomance too many times to count at this point, and I know there's more.

*I want to play my main, and I don't have that the ability to do it without a good majority of pick up people. That in itself is frustrating.

So yes. You have your opinion, I have mine. Kid gloves off, I'd have given a whole hell of a lot more weight to your opinion if you'd ever even been a factor in my gaming experience. You won't party with me? Fine. You never did before. Why start now.

And with that, you've made it pretty clear that I don't belong here. It's sad, but true. You might speak for yourself , but because of your status, your opinion has weight.

Yva and crew will be removed when I get home.

It's been real, folks.

[Quark]

Well, I was gonna send a PM, but since this is all out in the open.

There is no requirement that one must join a guild to raid with them.&nbsp; You might say that "it's easier" to do this, and that's true, so by all means go the easy route!&nbsp; Screw that guild that you had played in on your way up - now that you're established, you don't need them anymore!

Okay, Lurkers helped people getting to 60. The same 60s have helped other Lurkers. But who's helping them when they are 60s? You're too busy playing with alts to even enter a 5-man run. I played more 5-mans of the 60 instances with Lurkers than you have before I was a Lurker. You constantly call yourself an explorer. But you're so busy playing characters in zones you've already played that you can't ever enter Scholomance or Stratholme?

It's especially damning when one says that their level 60 is going to join another guild, but their alts will remain Lurkers.&nbsp; That's even more bloody offensive than if you just quit all your characters, which is what I'D prefer.&nbsp; Sure, the Lurkers are good enough for your non-60's, but not for your "real" characters.&nbsp; My response: go do you-know-what with yourself, because I'm not playing with you anymore.

You weren't there to begin with. Priests typically have a Tank that they ended up being with most of the time. A tank they get used to, know how to play with, and together they get out of sticky situations. Mentat isn't on enough consistently for this. I love playing with Sharanna, but Tal's not on enough to be the tank for Griz, and it's that much tougher for a Paladin to begin with. Galreth is getting close, but isn't there yet and has time split with an already 60 priest. So who was Griz's tank? Darian. These two work together all the time. I see it in action often, and when Griz isn't busy healing my suicidal butt she's healing Darian's.

Since getting back into the flow of things, I've been hitting up something almost every night. So who do I see all the time in my group? Half Lurker 60s, and half Carpe Aurum 60s. Hell, I was back with them last night, so I must using the whole Lurker guild, since I keep grouping with Carpe Aurums?

Our guild is on the brink of serious regular raiding.&nbsp; We've had learning-experience trips to Molten Core and we have a GIGANTIC guild on the same server that we have a ridiculously friendly relationship with, the Basin.&nbsp; All it takes is one person to organize it and take the time, and some regular weekly action could be taking place.&nbsp; Just ONE person to extend the olive branch to the Basin crowd and get things going!&nbsp; So instead of being part of the solution, you quit and run off somewhere else.&nbsp; Never mind the efforts of some Lurkers already to get raids going, working very hard to get things established like the MC run done recently.&nbsp; It's just easier to quit to somewhere else where this is established already instead of helping those you've been playing with for months to get it going here.

You mentioned plans to begin doing stuff in June or July last night. That's great, but when was anyone else told about this? Lurkers are not on the brink of serious raiding. We filled the MC raid because people we rarely, if ever, play with came along. Some of those people caused problems until they were gone. Others didn't, but then, if they're not back next time, that's new people that have to learn. The Basin is a great resource - but not for raiding. Every time I hear a call for Basiners go out, a few come over. A "few" is great for 5-mans, but it's certainly not the same for raiding.

There are so many 60's in this guild who've been waiting for more 60's to come up - and now that you've arrived, you're quitting?&nbsp; How do you think that makes some of them feel?&nbsp; My level 60 Priest is waiting for raid action - the only reason I missed the last one is because I was busy that day - and your leaving doesn't exact move that along.

Again, if you would actually play your 60, you would know that going to CA isn't exactly leaving. Unless you wish to ignore the fact that us Lurkers have been partied with CA every night including with Griz last night.

Quitting a guild because you don't get along with every single member is a silly idea as well.

Do you even know who did that anymore? Did you stop to think that maybe, since it was the webmaster saying this that it might have an increased effect?

What I'm saying is, don't expect me to be partying with you (or generally acknowledging you) any time soon.

So ... that won't change anything for me at all. I've only ever partied with you in Deadmines. You've never been there for the 60s.

[Kevin]

Another repsonse to the sub thread in general.

Lots of people are pissed at each other now. I'm curious as to how small the guild will be when I log on.

My opinion is that like Hillary said, as long as we don't know what we are (we're not a guild, we are a guild, we're not a guild). We'll NEVER have enough people to do high end raid content, because there aren't enough people who can play alts or who can wait around for people like me even if they enjoy playing the game with each other. If we don't have the structure there things won't happen.

Quark is right that Bolty's 60 is part of the problem as well. When you get a fun small group together people like me are more likely to play. Without Sabra and Ruvunal Gnolack wouldn't be as big and my alts on Terenas woud be bigger right now most likely. So the Terenas people would be happier and the Stormrage people would be less happy.

Everyone is selfish at level. Selfishness will get over ridden for "the greater good" if there is a goal to reach for. We don't have any goals but personal ones right now. So yeah, people can "take the easy way out".

See while I'm as much of the "problem" as the people who left are and the people who don't play thier 60's, I'm lucky in that it doesn't matter if the guild exists or not. I'll still have fun because of how I get my fun from the game. The best thing I could do for the guild would be to get Gnolack to 60, or to have gotten him to 60 a month ago. Having a another tank up there would have helped people out a lot. So really Bolty and the other waiters should be as mad as me as they are at the people who are leaving.

But in the end if we want stuff like this to stop if we don't want to see this drama like we had months ago, we need to figure out who we are because not everyone is like me (and that is a very good thing). If we decide we are more like me then the 60's who want to raid should leave because that is the only way they are going to be able to. If we decide we are going to be a raiding group at some point that needs to be clear so that the 60's who want to raid now can know what to do and you can get people like Sabra to 60 sooner to help you out. I touched on it in my information thread stuff. I don't think the vision for the site is going to work in our current implementation.

[Bolty]

And with that, you've made it pretty clear that I don't belong here.&nbsp; It's sad, but true.&nbsp; You might speak for yourself , but because of your status, your opinion has weight.

Yva and crew will be removed when I get home.
[right][snapback]77243[/snapback][/right]

And there you go. Do you have any idea what it's like to never be able to post your opinion on something? You know why that is? Because of that notion.

I don't speak for the guild, Tal does. If Tal tells me I'm a negative influence on the guild, I leave and don't fuss about it. I don't speak for this site. I don't discipline or kick you off of this forum for my opinion. But yet any time I post or say my opinion on something, people take off like I'm being dictatorial. *I* told you that *I* don't like the attitude of some of these 60's. So your response is that you "don't belong here?" So you're saying I speak for everyone else here? That they don't have their own minds?

Removing all of your characters from the guild because of my opinion is the classic attention-getting "woe is me" move to get sympathy. When NSD called me a (donkey)hole in guild chat, I actually appreciated that a heck of a lot more than the "Bolty called me something so I quit" attitude.

For once, I'm not forced to play Mr. Diplomatic just because I'm me and because if I state what I think, fur flies. My being tired of that after all these years is one of the reasons I didn't want to be guildmaster. I'm not going to play Mr. Diplomatic now. I said my piece, you said yours. Removing yourself from the guild because we disagree screws over everyone else who agrees with your stance.

-Bolty

[Hillary]

Woe is me is bull#$%&. I don't feel sorry for myself and I'm not trying to get attention. I'm trying to tell you I think you were wrong last night, and I stand by that. As far as why I said I'd take Yva and Lucilia off?

Many don't share it, and some do but won't say it because they don't want conflict. I will not name names.

If you have people that agree with you and won't group with me, what's the point in staying? Hell, since it's just baby toon alts, I could just as easily form my own guild and fill it with everyone's barely played characters. We could be a professional deadmines raiding squad. Cookie would fear us.

The fact of the matter is, nobody likes to be disliked last I checked. It's a rather icky feeling. I'm not one to stay where I'm unwanted, and though conflict is a natural part of life, when I'm playing a GAME, it shouldn't be a weighing factor. We pay for fun. Guild drama is not FUN.

At any rate, I'm talking with Tal now. Nothing about our friendship has changed, even if I'm a know-it-all-diva that bitches on public forums. But hell, he knew that ahead of time. Lucky SOB.

As for the rest it . . . respect NSD. You should. He's a good guy. And whether or not you respect me isn't going to disturb my sleep pattern, just like my paltry opinions probably don't affect you.

Whatever the case may be, if my leaving sparks the controversy that leads to a true guild identity for the Lurkers - raiding guild, not raiding guild - something good came out of it, even if I'm not allowed to play with you.

<_<

[Tal]

Its lovely how things spiral out of proportion. :)

My thoughts on all of this drama. The Lurkers on Stormrage have always been about friends having fun. I don't ever recall promising to make end content happen for folks but I have gotten the impression of late that this has been expected of me since I capped Sharanna. I'm sorry that I wasn't able to fufill these expectations.

I would be lying if I said that I'm happy that folks are leaving the Lurkers to join other guilds for end game encounters. I definitely would have preferred to keep everyone that has left in the Lurkers but I'm pretty selfish that way. I like having all my friends under one roof. :) Does this mean that because folks have joined Carpe Arum that they can’t group with Lurkers? Hell no. They’re our friends as is the Basin crowd. I personally think that better communication with the Basin and with CA will get those who want to face endgame content what they desire. Those that want to level alts or at a slower pace can still do so as well.

What you ALL are losing sight of is that there is more to this game than fighting Onyxia and the bosses of Molten Core. Battlegrounds will be added next patch as well as new dungeons and other encounters. There will always be room for those who want to level up Alts in the Lurkers if that’s what they enjoy in the game. This doesn’t have to be an all or nothing, balls to the wall kind of situation that its been made out to be. If a Lurker wants to raid Onyxia then all they need to do is step up the plate and be persistant. One night may not work for getting everyone on the same page to make steps towards the end game content so you will probably have to spend a couple of weeks posting reminders to this herd of cats. May even wish to have more than one person organizing these things to make sure no one else gets burned out. I would have loved to get what I needed for MC and Onyxia done when it was first offered. I would STILL love to do so and will probably post about it in the future (after I get Shalandrax through ZF tonight and Sharanna through Scholomance tomorrow). I just ask for a little patience in doing so.

I’m also asking for everyone to take a step back and a few deep breaths before making any decisions. No one has to leave the Lurkers simply because their main is in another guild. No one is barred from raiding with the Lurkers simply because they have a different tag above their head. Anyone who wishes to come back to the Guild and raid as a Lurker with bigger guilds will be welcomed back with open arms.

We can still be a successful small guild who raids end game content.

[Quark]

And there you go.&nbsp; Do you have any idea what it's like to never be able to post your opinion on something?&nbsp; You know why that is?&nbsp; Because of that notion.

You may think it's unfair that people take you're opinion as "guild opinion." But you know what? Last night, you said nothing to counteract that. In these posts, I see two sentences to the effect of "don't take my opinion as guild opinion." That's fine, but it's two sentences in a post of 12 paragraphs. You are the webmaster, and that just happens to mean if you want to be able to express your opinion, it may need 50 disclaimers. It sucks, but it's true.

*I* told you that *I* don't like the attitude of some of these 60's. So your response is that you "don't belong here?" So you're saying I speak for everyone else here? That they don't have their own minds?

You also specifically said that you don't respect people who have their 60s in one guild, and their alts in the Lurkers. Does this mean I should have never joined with Mitzy in the first place, since Ramala was in another guild? More importantly, how would you feel to come back with an alt after that was said? Wouldn't you feel unwelcome? Leper, outcast, unclean! Everytime you log in, you think "some people say I don't belong here".

That and having characters in different guilds makes sense. Before Contra Malum disbanded, I played Ramala every week night, with the same 5 group, accomplishing the same goals. Mitzy was a change of breath. I got tons of guild chat, could solo most of the time, and still party with great people when desired. Do I want to hit LBRS every night? No, and that's why I have alts. Alts themselves are there to break the routine, to give a different playing style. If people want to have a hardcore main and a casual alt, why should we complain about it? Raiding isn't always my cup of tea, and when it isn't I'm usually on Mitzy. You make it sound like I was in the wrong for doing that before we were assimilated.

[Tal]

For once, I'm not forced to play Mr. Diplomatic just because I'm me and because if I state what I think, fur flies.&nbsp; My being tired of that after all these years is one of the reasons I didn't want to be guildmaster.&nbsp; I'm not going to play Mr. Diplomatic now.&nbsp; I said my piece, you said yours.&nbsp; Removing yourself from the guild because we disagree screws over everyone else who agrees with your stance.

-Bolty
[right][snapback]77251[/snapback][/right]

I think a lot of it comes from you being the founder of the feast Bolty - your hard work years ago and continuing hard work is what brought everyone together. People respect you for that.

What some need to realize is that you have opinions and are not shy about expressing them. Folks also have to realize that they are just opinions and everyone has those. :)

You flatter me when you say I speak for the guild but I feel like I have to comment. The Lurkers speak for the guild. :)