Wands Uber on Test Server

[savaughn]

I'd rather have the player play well and properly ruin my #$%& than lose fights to people just because they're casters.
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In your mind, you may choose to believe that you lost the fight "just because they're casters" if it makes you feel better. Paladins, themselves, are casters, however. It sounds like your real complaint is that if a caster is out of mana, wearing plate is no longer an automatic "i win". Well, that and you seem to be arguing that the Pally's less than stellar end game should be compensated for by keeping in everyone else's game problems around. My pally's rather less than pleased with his ability to do damage end game as well, but that doesn't make me want to keep priests nerfed.

Besides, given the scenario you keep referring to (caster out of mana wanding at you while you swing your beat stick) the simple fact of the matter is that you'll win anyway. Just drop the right aura on (every wand I've ever seen cleary indicates its damage type visually) and you're still in the position of taking less damage than your opponent.

[Rinnhart]

In your mind,

A bit presumptuous.

you may choose to believe that you lost the fight "just because they're casters" if it makes you feel better.  Paladins, themselves, are casters, however.  It sounds like your real complaint is that if a caster is out of mana, wearing plate is no longer an automatic "i win". 

Paladins are casters- but we are entirely reliant upon melee weapons for damage (against non-undead). Unlike every other spell caster. We have procs, and through talents the worst AE and DD in the game. That mana is heal fodder and little more.

Well, that and you seem to be arguing that the Pally's less than stellar end game should be compensated for by keeping in everyone else's game problems around.  My pally's rather less than pleased with his ability to do damage end game as well, but that doesn't make me want to keep priests nerfed.

I agree, but I've already made the posts, and I'm not changing them.

Besides, given the scenario you keep referring to (caster out of mana wanding at you while you swing your beat stick) the simple fact of the matter is that you'll win anyway.  Just drop the right aura on (every wand I've ever seen cleary indicates its damage type visually) and you're still in the position of taking less damage than your opponent.
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Not true.

Paladin resistance auras protect against three (cold/fire/shadow) out of five damage types. Stormrager is nature damage- and as I said, an incredibly common wand.

[Drasca]

but we are entirely reliant upon melee weapons for damage
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Ahem. Entirely reliant on ever increasing dps epic weapons from MC, et al which surpass caster equipment for reliable added damage.

Whine somewhere else if you want to bring up equipment, you get no trade offs for increased dps, where casters do. Recall that cloth casters get no natural or equipment +strength or agility to boost melee prowess, nor do any stats affect wands whereas paladins, warriors, etc get. Nor should they, but our staves are not a dps source.

I'm seeing paladins hit for 2-500 damage per swing against my cloth with no interruption on their attack speed.

Do I have to work a lot harder because paladin cleanse can cheaply and instantly remove 3/4th of my damage spells, regular attacks interrupt and drastically lower my dps of my DD spells, while he having damage mitigation, and resists... There isn't exactly pvp balance here. There isn't even rock paper scissors in WoW. Some classes and builds are simply easy-mode, and counter-able only if you're both good and ready. Paladins are part of the easy-mode at low mana (even a last ditch spell to heal for max health and give 500 mana to the paladin).

mastery for any class is left for top players, but to play a class at an adequate effectiveness. There's no question paladins fall into that category. Warlocks do not.

I have no pity for paladins that make the melee complaint when they get access to ever increasing dps end game equipment, resists, damage mitigation, magic debuff and snare removal, ranged stun, and ability to hearth out from anything.

[KiloVictor]

Ahem. Entirely reliant on ever increasing dps epic weapons from MC, et al which surpass caster equipment for reliable added damage.

Ya, what he said! :)

Or to put it slightly differently, the rankings of rock, paper, and scissors have changed at 60 as people get geared up. Gear-dependent classes are waaay outstripping us squishies in the endgame; I've resorted to a stack of +spell/healing damage gear to try and keep up, but I'm losing too many stats to stay competitive if I do that. So the warriors, hunters, rogues, and shammies (and oh ya, pallies too) are slowly pulling away on the mages, priests, and warlocks. It seems that there's not much we can do to compete, and I don't think a wand fix is going to change that.

There isn't exactly pvp balance here. There isn't even rock paper scissors in WoW. Some classes and builds are simply easy-mode, and counter-able only if you're both good and ready.
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I've always thought that having balance discusssions based on 1-on-1 PvP situations is a lot like trying to define federal fiscal policy based on my personal chequebook - it's just too small a sample to justify any substantial changes to the big picture. It might be great for me, but it'll be craptastic for everybody else.

I think balance has to be looked at with a much more holistic eye. For instance, I hear a lot of folks talking now about how earthbind totems are overpowered and unfair for the Horde in Warsong Gulch, since the Alliance has no similar ability or any available tactics to counter it. I haven't played there, so I don't know how valid the complaint is, but those to me are the types of more significant balance issues that need to be sorted out first.

It's entirely possible that the playerbase (and I mean more the WoW forum crowd than this one) is yet again worked up over a change that won't be that big a deal in practice. I mean, we're talking here theoretically about a 1:1 pally/priest matchup with no adds, no remarkable crits, no mobs or other players wandering by, fighting down to oom, and whether or not the priest now has an advantage over the pally. That's perhaps a bit too singular and hypothetical of a situation to really have much of a balance discussion. :unsure:

Kv

[MongoJerry]

It's entirely possible that the playerbase (and I mean more the WoW forum crowd than this one) is yet again worked up over a change that won't be that big a deal in practice. I mean, we're talking here theoretically about a 1:1 pally/priest matchup with no adds, no remarkable crits, no mobs or other players wandering by, fighting down to oom, and whether or not the priest now has an advantage over the pally. That's perhaps a bit too singular  and hypothetical of a situation to really have much of  a balance discussion.  :unsure:

Priests have always been the bane of Paladins. This is as it should be, since something in this game should be able to kill a Paladin. The only reason you hear Paladins complaining about Priests is that Paladins aren't used to dying and therefore many Paladin players consider something unusual like that happening to be some kind of imbalance or design flaw.

[Phoenix]

Could we perhaps tone down the arrogance and insulting tone towards anything that's not your race/class/faction in this (and other balance discussion threads in this forum)?

I expect this crap from the official forums, but hearing the dismissive tone of some people here towards anything that's not them makes me sad.

Is there no safe haven from race/class/faction prejudice?

[russ]

This might actually become a bit of a powerhouse for Discipline Priests. Might even make the second tier abilities very viable.

It's not as much a problem for paladins as it is for druids, but it will change small group PvP as we know it once people realize the power potential here. Although it takes a Molten Core level drop, there are going to be priests out there able to auto-wand for 90 DPS, 90 DPS with no reduction from armor and, in my mind, neglible resists.

It won't matter to paladins, who can safely out-regen priests enough to make the difference between their mana supply. But against druids, who lose 2/3rds of their Moonfire damage, can't outnuke a priest, and don't do insane damage in form, the ability to just bubble and throw out wand shots for more damage than I'm doing is a pretty significant problem.

Oh, and Rinnhart, not only can druids not use wands, but you really shouldn't be able to lose to them. Blessing of Wisdom and cleanse is an evil combination for 1v1.

[Brista]

I tried it out on Test with the pre-made level 60s on Europe. Every opponent is level 60 here

It's nice to have a mana-free damage source. I've used it a lot when there's a group of us rolling up disorganised opposition. I've never used it one v one though because if it's just you and them you need them down as fast as possible before someone else wanders by and decides to join in. One v one is common on battlegrounds but doesn't stay one v one for long because the most obvious way to re-enter the fray after you die is to look for a fight and join it. Not to mention opportunistic Rogues

If you're going to be spending time on Battlegrounds I don't think this is going to change much. Even with 5 in wand mastery it doesn't feel like a way to win fights. (Psychic scream, SWP, Mind Blast, Renew and running a lot is my main technique)

[Rinnhart]

Ya, what he said! :)

He was ganked by a paladin is what he's saying.

[Rinnhart]

Priests have always been the bane of Paladins.  This is as it should be, since something in this game should be able to kill a Paladin.  The only reason you hear Paladins complaining about Priests is that Paladins aren't used to dying and therefore many Paladin players consider something unusual like that happening to be some kind of imbalance or design flaw.
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EDIT: Naw, I think you already said it best, Jerry.

What frightens me is that you might actually be serious about this...

[Quark]

He was ganked by a paladin is what he's saying.
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Do you have any idea what the caster end game problem is like? I get a new dagger in UBRS as my Rogue ... I get at least a 20% increase in my DPS. Any caster gets a new *blank* in the same place ... "ooh, 50 more mana!". It's not even close to comparable. Do +heal/damage items help? Yes, but the "best" gear doesn't have that, so you're stuck with greens that don't add to stats at all.

Being "ganked" isn't fair when you're both 60 and have the "best" gear for your respective classes.

[Rinnhart]

Do you have any idea what the caster end game problem is like?  I get a new dagger in UBRS as my Rogue ... I get at least a 20% increase in my DPS.  Any caster gets a new *blank* in the same place ... "ooh, 50 more mana!".  It's not even close to comparable.  Do +heal/damage items help?  Yes, but the "best" gear doesn't have that, so you're stuck with greens that don't add to stats at all.

Being "ganked" isn't fair when you're both 60 and have the "best" gear for your respective classes.
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He raised a few semi-valid itemization issues and then swiftly disintegrated into "paladins have it easy."

I'm passing on that particular discussion, now, when even the mod is remarkably biased. I'm never going to change anyone's mind about it, and I'm not going to waste my time with further attempts. All I can say is- play a paladin. Try it out. If nothing else, you'll learn how to beat 'em, easier.


As to the items- while endgame itemization does raise some eyebrows, how about we clarify what exactly we mean by "endgame." You say that, I see MC and other raid events- what you seem to mean is the common level 60 instances.

[russ]

He raised a few semi-valid itemization issues and then swiftly disintegrated into "paladins have it easy."

I'm passing on that particular discussion, now, when even the mod is remarkably biased. I'm never going to change anyone's mind about it, and I'm not going to waste my time with further attempts. All I can say is- play a paladin. Try it out. If nothing else, you'll learn how to beat 'em, easier.
As to the items- while endgame itemization does raise some eyebrows, how about we clarify what exactly we mean by "endgame." You say that, I see MC and other raid events- what you seem to mean is the common level 60 instances.

It's the same in MC. You're a caster, you get an epic item with another 3 int, +5 damage, and some mana every 5 seconds if you're lucky. With the exclusion of the priest epic quest and a wand, pretty much all the caster gear in this game does nothing but add to how long you can stay in the fight; not very useful to people rapidly discovering that a rogue can outdamage them AND last longer in a fight. A full magister's regalia gives only +1.5% crit and +21-27 damage. That's not worth a full set compared to Valor's 240 attack power alone, nevermind the cooler effects on the plate. The full Arcanist set gives only a nice bright +63 fire damage, less for arcane and frost. 8 epics, and little more than a 15 DPS boost.

Meanwhile, a warrior picking up an Obsidian-Edged Blade, a common enough drop that we're contemplating letting hunters send in tells for it, or a rogue grabbing a Gutgore Ripper, is a 10 DPS boost THAT IS MULTIPLICATIVE BY ABILITIES!

Oh, and I've played a paladin. All it does is make you realize how many morons there are out there playing the class. Fighting a warrior? I know, I'll leave Retribution Aura on, it's not like he'd trade in that health for rage on his own anyway! Divine Intervention SUCKZORZ, it saves me repair costs and doesn't compare to Reincarnation, because someone with 200 health self-rezzing under a raid boss is much cooler! Let's use Blessing of Might when fighting a Druid!

Bleh.

[Quark]

As to the items- while endgame itemization does raise some eyebrows, how about we clarify what exactly we mean by "endgame." You say that, I see MC and other raid events- what you seem to mean is the common level 60 instances.
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It starts at the 60 instances. It only gets worse against Onyxia and MC as the numbers improve for both sides, but the numbers improving for one side is better than the numbers improving for another.

Even if the numbers were comparable, it takes one item for a non-caster class to raise his damage. Just get the dagger/sword/gun/whatever and you're done. Casters have to collect all their armor to try to keep up with damage.

[Rinnhart]

Poor choice of words on my part, I guess. I recognize the problems that exist with caster gear. It's an affliction for all mmo casters, and Blizzard didn't help by not having much drop-based level 60 spell progression.

That said, I'll risk the lynch mob by saying it is possible to acquire some pretty dang nice levels of + crit chance and + damage from non-set items, not to mention the PvP set rewards. Thousand damage CoCs for all.

And it's not like paladins aren't in the same boat, in the long run, as pure casters. We have one talent based ability that allows for EXPONENTIAL DAMAGE MULTIPLICATION- and even then it's entirely luck based.

[Alarick]

That said, I'll risk the lynch mob by saying it is possible to acquire some pretty dang nice levels of + crit chance and + damage from non-set items, not to mention the PvP set rewards. Thousand damage CoCs for all.
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You have to keep in mind that it's not so much an issue of if a caster can achieve high levels of +damage or +crit, but what they have to give up in doing it.

The PvP rewards are an exception to this, because they were designed this way, but almost all gear sacrifices stats for the +damage or +crit. Even the PvP set, to a degree, drops some decent stats for the +damage they provide.

For melee based classes, you replace one item to get a big increase in DPS. In doing that, you usually are not changing the stats you get from that item significantly.

For caster classes, at least with how stuff works now, having a huge amount of +damage items means not only farming for 8-10 pieces of gear, but also being that much weaker in the long run.

As a side note, I think it would be interesting to see how big a difference the lost mana would make compared to the added damage in the end game. Not taking into account the Poly + Combustion + Pyroblast combo, I could see the mana helping more in the long run for PvP. More mana means more spells, which means more damage. Can the +damage out do this amount of damage? Can it do it for the 1.5 second cast spells or instant cast spells which receive less than half of the added damage?

I'm not even going to touch the Paladin issue, because the issue with hybrid classes is touchy to begin with. It will be interesting to see where Blizzard goes with spell casting in general once more raid instances start coming into the game.

[russ]

Don't lie. As I said before, I actually know what a paladin is. You've got more than one ability that lends to EXPONENTIAL DAMAGE MULTIPLICATION. Reckoning and Seal of Command both do in the purest form, and talents such as Weapon Spec or Vengance do as well, although to a smaller degree.
Don't like playing by dice rolls?
Too bad, as even a warrior spamming Heroic Strike is simply waiting for you to give them the rage. The only downside to being a paladin is that you don't get to press the button - the game does it on its own when all the triggers come into place.

But let's look at caster items. First of all we can ignore +crit items unless the rest of the cloth is complete and utter #$%&, since on average +crit sucks compared to +damage, even for those lucky enough to get more than 1.5x from each crit. Mages and hunters, you know who I'm talking about. We'll go with fire simply because that's what I've seen most often.

Pulling together the highest +fire damage items we can together (including two of the same unique ring, but it did have the biggest +fire stat ><), you get a grand total of 217. That's an ideal 72 DPS, the equivilant of a paladin with attack power close to 1k.

Too bad that level of power is quite possible without giving up too many stats or needing a full set of high level gear - this paladin does it while using mostly Lightforge and Valor - while a mage would probably have their intellect left below 200, nevermind the 300, with a perfectly talored group of equipment.

[Bob the Beholder]

Too bad that level of power is quite possible without giving up too many stats or needing a full set of high level gear - this paladin does it while using mostly Lightforge and Valor - while a mage would probably have their intellect left below 200, nevermind the 300, with a perfectly talored group of equipment.
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Yeeesh, my mage even before level 50 has significantly more than 200 intellect... and I astound people by actually managing to run out of mana when fighting non-healers.