Warlock's talents building

[Drasca]

Wait a minute, how would crit chance increase? Crits are still on a per spellcast basis and most warlock spells (Dots, death coil, and channels) don't crit.

Give me some hard numbers on your crit rate. Last night, I've tested rank 1 shadowbolt CoS'ed through duel mechanism about 70 times. Mine remained consistent at around 12% with my standard setup. Post your total +crit eqiupment, +crit talent investment, int stat and % crit resulted. I'm willing to record more results on different enemies and setups. What about you? Don't you wish to know your true crit %?

I never said Ruin didn't do extra damage, and I will probably try the build on the test server if WoW-0.4.0.4323-to-0.4.0-enUS-patch.exe ever downloads, but its certainly not worth it early on and without +damage equipment. Again, give me actual numbers on your crit rate. "Routinely" is too subjective. Show me some promising figures Lissa. I want to see nasty Ruin specc'ed damage.

As for cap of the scarlet savant, you'll get likely an epic set helm before that. Compared with Crown of the Ogre King its a whole 1-2 stat points in int and stam, and 1 crit. That worth 300g, 3 arcane crystals, 2 skin of shadow, and pristine hide? Which would deny someone else getting an epic. I think you'll see what's severely wrong with the cap's cost vs benefit when the next best thing is nearly as good and costs drastically less.

The biggest reason I criticize SM/ruin is because so many newbie locks take it without realizing what they're giving up. You can burn a lot of burst damage, potentially pull aggro, but you might be doing more steady damage by simply having more mana (dark pact, 31 points, mutually exclusive with Ruin), or simply surviving longer: (master summoner / fel domination / health funnel / improved imp stam buff / and finally soul link which is again mutually exclusive with Ruin).

I'll show you some figures on how crit bonus works. You'll see its best with a large base damage, but the difference between Ruin and non-Ruin is one shadowbolt every % crit rate. You'd essentially get 12 shadowbolts when I get 11 at a 10% crit rate (or 13/12 /w Shadow Vulnerability). The difference widens with additional crit, but at some point you'll have to choose between +damage and +crit equipment. But if the shadowbolt isn't hitting that hard or often, due to resistences or equipment, Ruin's just not a whole lot more damage.

Warning, lots of data ahead

How warlock crit bonuses work, and the 360% Ruin / 240% Non-Ruin optimal ratio

360% vs 240% is the maximum crit damage ratio between Ruin and non ruin crits, all other things being equal.

Total = Base + Crit bonus

Base * Shadow Vulnerabilty = 1.2 (base)

Crit bonuses onto base:
Base * Negative resistence crit effect (Curse of Shadows) crit bonus = Base + 50% (2)
Base * Ruin = same as above
Base * Negative resistence effect & Ruin = Base + ( 50% )(2)(2)

Ruin
--With Shadow Vulnerability, Negative Resistences crit :

120% Base + 120% * 200% = 360% Base

No Ruin
--With Shadow Vulnerability, Negative Resistences crit :

120% Base + 120% * 100% = 240% Base

Note: Neither Shadow Vulnerability nor negative resistences crit bonus is guaranteed. Without them numbers would be..

Ruin
Base + 100% = 200%

No Ruin
Base + 50% = 150%

The damage Ratio between Ruin/No ruin closes from 1.5:1 to 1.3:1


Shadow Mastery adds 10% to base shadowbolt damage, at rank 9...

455-507 + 10% = 500-557. At best that's equivalent of +50 magical damage from equipment. That's why the last 5 points into shadow mastery isn't worth it without dark pact.

No Ruin crit with Neg Resists (+100% damage to base)

500-550 w/o shadow vulernability + 100% crit bonus = 1000-1100
600-660 /w +20% shadow vulnerability + 100% crit = 1200-1320

Ruin crit with Neg Resists (+200% damage to base)

{500-550 w/o shadow vulnerability } + 200% bonus = 1500-1650
{600-660 /w +20% shadow vulernability } 200% bonus = 1800-1980

*note high shadow resistence enemies won't receive attain recieve bonus. So damage magnified wouldn't be as much. You'd see non-ruin figures w/o neg resistences.


Theoretical trials of
100 Shadowbolts...
At a given %crit rate.

Assuming: Always shadow vulnerability (1.2 base shadowbolt), Always negative resist crit dmg bonus, always hit, and at set crit rates.

These assumptions maximizes the gap between Ruin and non-ruin. Resists, lack of shadow vulnerability, and anything that reduces shadowbolt damage closes the gap between ruin and non-ruin.

SB's = Base damage shadowbolts.

(Total Crit % damage bonus ruin or non ruin) (crit SB's) + (Shadow vulnerability bonus) ( Non crit SB's) = Total damage in SB's at a given crit

At 10% crit rate,
--normal for most players with modest equipment or minimal talent investment

Non Ruin
240% ( 10 shadowbolts ) + 1.2 (90 shadowbolts) = 24 + 108 = 132 SB's
Ruin
360% ( 10 shadowbolts ) + 1.2 (90 shadowbolts) = 36 + 108 = 144 SB's

Non Ruin to Ruin damage ratio: 0.91 : 1
Ruin % damage increase 9.09

At 15% crit rate
--available with talents and/or a decent +crit collection

Non Ruin
240% ( 15 shadowbolts ) + 1.2 (85 shadowbolts) = 36 + 102 = 138 SB's
Ruin
360% ( 15 shadowbolts ) + 1.2 (85 shadowbolts) = 54 + 102 = 156 SB's

Non Ruin to Ruin damage ratio: 0.88 : 1
Ruin % damage increase 13.0


At 25% crit rate
--achieved by forsaking +damage equipment
Non Ruin
240% ( 25 shadowbolts ) + 1.2 (75 shadowbolts) = 60 + 90 = 150 SB's
Ruin
360% ( 25 shadowbolts ) + 1.2 (75 shadowbolts) = 90 + 90 = 180 SB's

Non Ruin to Ruin damage ratio: 0.83 : 1
Ruin % damage increase 20.0


At 50% crit rate,
--completely theoretical, not available in-game

Non Ruin
240% ( 50 shadowbolts ) + 1.2 (50 shadowbolts) = 120 + 60 = 180 SB's
Ruin
360% ( 50 shadowbolts ) + 1.2 (50 shadowbolts) = 180 + 60 = 240 SB's

Non Ruin to Ruin damage ratio: 0.75 : 1
Ruin % damage increase 33.3

Only at a ficitonal 50% crit does Ruin greatly surpass non-ruin builds. You get 10-15% at moderate crit rates, beyond that you are sacrificing +damage modifiers for crit on most all blue items.

When you run out of mana, you'll be sacrificing dps, time or life, to regain mana for more shadow bolts. When you run out of health, again your ability to damage the enemy drops. I'd rather the option to mitigate either life or mana loss, while retaining 80-90% of Ruin damage.

If I ever get epics that increase both my +shadow damage and my crit rate high enough, I'll respec to ruin... until then +damage equipment is clearly superior for straight % damage. Pushing shadowbolt damage from 500-->700 is a 40% increase without considering crits, while with talents and ruin, I'd be pushing about 13-17% increased damage (optimally).

I wanted to see how much damage in real numbers Ruin actually adds, and now I have. I'd need at least +8% to crit on equipment in addition to my +damage equip to really take advantage of Ruin.

[Lissa]

Wait a minute, how would crit chance increase? Crits are still on a per spellcast basis and most warlock spells  (Dots, death coil, and channels) don't crit.

Give me some hard numbers on your crit rate. Last night, I've tested rank 1 shadowbolt CoS'ed through duel mechanism about 70 times. Mine remained consistent at around 12% with my standard setup. Post your total +crit eqiupment, +crit talent investment, int stat and % crit resulted. I'm willing to record more results on different enemies and setups. What about you? Don't you wish to know your true crit %?

I never said Ruin didn't do extra damage, and I will probably try the build on the test server if WoW-0.4.0.4323-to-0.4.0-enUS-patch.exe ever downloads, but its certainly not worth it early on and without +damage equipment. Again, give me actual numbers on your crit rate. "Routinely" is too subjective. Show me some promising figures Lissa. I want to see nasty Ruin specc'ed damage.

As for cap of the scarlet savant, you'll get likely an epic set helm before that. Compared with Crown of the Ogre King its a whole 1-2 stat points in int and stam, and  1 crit. That worth 300g, 3 arcane crystals, 2 skin of shadow, and pristine hide? Which would deny someone else getting an epic.  I think you'll see what's severely wrong with the cap's cost vs benefit when the next best thing is nearly as good and costs drastically less.

The biggest reason I criticize SM/ruin is because so many newbie locks take it without realizing what they're giving up. You can burn a lot of burst damage, potentially pull aggro, but you might be doing more steady damage by simply having more mana (dark pact, 31 points, mutually exclusive with Ruin), or simply surviving longer: (master summoner / fel domination / health funnel / improved imp stam buff / and finally soul link which is again mutually exclusive with Ruin).

I'll show you some figures on how crit bonus works. You'll see its best with a large base damage, but the difference between Ruin and non-Ruin is one shadowbolt every % crit rate. You'd essentially get 12 shadowbolts when I get 11 at a 10% crit rate (or 13/12 /w Shadow Vulnerability). The difference widens with additional crit, but at some point you'll have to choose between +damage and +crit equipment. But if the shadowbolt isn't hitting that hard or often, due to resistences or equipment, Ruin's just not a whole lot more damage.

Warning, lots of data ahead

How warlock crit bonuses work, and the 360% Ruin / 240% Non-Ruin optimal ratio

360% vs 240% is the maximum crit damage ratio between Ruin and non ruin crits, all other things being equal.

Total = Base + Crit bonus

Base * Shadow Vulnerabilty = 1.2 (base)

Crit bonuses onto base:
Base * Negative resistence crit effect (Curse of Shadows) crit bonus = Base + 50% (2)
Base * Ruin = same as above
Base * Negative resistence effect & Ruin = Base + ( 50% )(2)(2)

Ruin
--With Shadow Vulnerability, Negative Resistences crit :

120% Base + 120% * 200% = 360% Base

No Ruin
--With Shadow Vulnerability, Negative Resistences crit :

120% Base + 120% * 100% = 240% Base

Note: Neither Shadow Vulnerability nor negative resistences crit bonus is guaranteed. Without them numbers would be..

Ruin
Base + 100% = 200%

No Ruin
Base + 50% = 150%

The damage Ratio between Ruin/No ruin closes from 1.5:1 to 1.3:1
Shadow Mastery adds 10% to base shadowbolt damage, at rank 9...

455-507 + 10% = 500-557. At best that's equivalent of +50 magical damage from equipment. That's why the last 5 points into shadow mastery isn't worth it without dark pact.

No Ruin crit with Neg Resists (+100% damage to base)

500-550 w/o shadow vulernability + 100% crit bonus = 1000-1100
600-660 /w +20% shadow vulnerability + 100% crit = 1200-1320

Ruin crit with Neg Resists (+200% damage to base)

{500-550 w/o shadow vulnerability } + 200% bonus = 1500-1650
{600-660 /w +20% shadow vulernability  } 200% bonus = 1800-1980

*note high shadow resistence enemies won't receive attain recieve bonus. So damage magnified wouldn't be as much. You'd see non-ruin figures w/o neg resistences.
Theoretical trials of
100 Shadowbolts...
At a given %crit rate.

Assuming: Always shadow vulnerability (1.2 base shadowbolt), Always negative resist crit dmg bonus, always hit, and at set crit rates.

These assumptions maximizes the gap between Ruin and non-ruin. Resists, lack of shadow vulnerability, and anything that reduces shadowbolt damage closes the gap between ruin and non-ruin.

SB's = Base damage shadowbolts.

(Total Crit % damage bonus ruin or non ruin) (crit SB's) + (Shadow vulnerability bonus) ( Non crit SB's) = Total damage in SB's at a given crit

At 10% crit rate,
--normal for most players with modest equipment or minimal talent investment

Non Ruin
240% ( 10 shadowbolts ) + 1.2 (90 shadowbolts)  = 24 + 108 = 132 SB's
Ruin
360% ( 10 shadowbolts ) + 1.2 (90 shadowbolts) = 36 + 108 = 144 SB's

Non Ruin to Ruin damage ratio: 0.91 : 1
Ruin % damage increase 9.09

At 15% crit rate
--available with talents and/or a decent +crit collection

Non Ruin
240% ( 15 shadowbolts ) + 1.2 (85 shadowbolts) = 36 + 102 = 138 SB's
Ruin
360% ( 15 shadowbolts ) + 1.2 (85 shadowbolts) = 54 + 102 = 156 SB's

Non Ruin to Ruin damage ratio: 0.88 : 1
Ruin % damage increase 13.0
At 25% crit rate
--achieved by forsaking +damage equipment
Non Ruin
240% ( 25 shadowbolts ) + 1.2 (75 shadowbolts) = 60 + 90 = 150 SB's
Ruin
360% ( 25 shadowbolts ) + 1.2 (75 shadowbolts) = 90 + 90 = 180 SB's

Non Ruin to Ruin damage ratio: 0.83 : 1
Ruin % damage increase  20.0
At 50% crit rate,
--completely theoretical, not available in-game

Non Ruin
240% ( 50 shadowbolts ) + 1.2 (50 shadowbolts) = 120 + 60 = 180 SB's
Ruin
360% ( 50 shadowbolts ) + 1.2 (50 shadowbolts) = 180 + 60 = 240 SB's

Non Ruin to Ruin damage ratio: 0.75 : 1
Ruin % damage increase 33.3

Only at a ficitonal 50% crit does Ruin greatly surpass non-ruin builds. You get 10-15% at moderate crit rates, beyond that you are sacrificing +damage modifiers for crit on most all blue items.

When you run out of mana, you'll be sacrificing dps, time or life, to regain mana for more shadow bolts. When you run out of health, again your ability to damage the enemy drops. I'd rather the option to mitigate either life or mana loss, while retaining 80-90% of Ruin damage.

If I ever get epics that increase both my +shadow damage and my crit rate high enough, I'll respec to ruin... until then +damage equipment is clearly superior for straight % damage. Pushing shadowbolt damage from 500-->700 is a 40% increase without considering crits, while with talents and ruin, I'd be pushing about 13-17% increased damage (optimally).

I wanted to see how much damage in real numbers Ruin actually adds, and now I have. I'd need at least +8% to crit on equipment in addition to my +damage equip to really take advantage of Ruin.
[right][snapback]80133[/snapback][/right]

You're not paying attention Drasca. The whole point of Devestation and Ruin is to improve your damage in a small samples which is what a fight is, a small sample of casts. My comment still stands, in small samples, Devestation and Ruin MAKE a difference.

Going back to my comment in the last post, say you have a 15% chance to crit without Devestation. Now, throw back in Devestation with the same equipment and you have 20% chance to crit.

Now, let's throw a single critable spell, the difference between the two builds is only a 5% chance of a crit. Now, let's take a look at both builds each throwing two critable spells in a row. The chance to crit one of those spells becomes 1 - failure chance ^ number of spells thrown. So, we go back and see that the non-Devestation chance to crit suddenly has a chance of getting a crit between one of those spells of 27.75% while the Devestation build has a 36% chance to crit, almost a 10% difference. If we look at three critable spells in a row, the non-Devestation build now has a 38.6% chance for a crit on one of those spells while the Devestation build has a 48.8% chance to crit on one of those spells (over 10% difference now).

Now do you see why Devestation makes such a huge difference? In a large sample, you don't see the benefits, in the small sample, the benefit becomes HUGE. Using the above examples, the Devestation build has almost 50% likelihood of getting a crit in one of those three spells whlie non-Devestation build has only around 40% and that is for just a 15 talent point total expenditure.

When you start calculating in the effects of Ruin, Shadow Mastery, and potential Improved Shadowbolt if you're spamming them, the increases you see in damage with the same build as someone that doesn't go with a SM/Ruin build begin to be seen. SM/Ruin allows you to lay down much more damage more quickly in order to end the fight before your opponent has a chance to take you down.

To bastardize a quote by Patton, "your goal is not to die for your faction, but to make the other poor bastard die for his." In group dynamics, it is all about laying out as much damage as possible as quickly as possible (caveat: when dealing with PvE, try not to out agro your tank... ;) ).

[Drasca]

My comment still stands, in small samples, Devestation and Ruin MAKE a difference.
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Small samples means you depend on small unlikely chances to win a battle. That's bull. Crits are wonderful when they happen, but only a desperate player is going to depend on them. In small samples, you'd also run out of mana or life with a Ruin investment. That's less overall damage. I don't need just one or two crits. I want them all dead. Ruin doesn't provide the staying power compared to dark pact or soul link.

You don't see beyond the single, double, triple, crit picture. Too bad.

When you start calculating in the effects of Ruin, Shadow Mastery, and potential Improved Shadowbolt if you're spamming them, the increases you see in damage with the same build as someone that doesn't go with a SM/Ruin build begin to be seen. SM/Ruin allows you to lay down much more damage more quickly in order to end the fight before your opponent has a chance to take you down.

You won't be able to spam SB's against any half decent opponent. PvP, group or no, is about tactics, control and interrupts. Out damaging only works when they have pitifully low health, and even our PvP rogues have over 4k health.

I've already calculated SB spam damage, and for every component. Its not that much more damage.

On a small scale, its one shadowbolt. One crit? One battle? Pfft. Not enough.

Warlocks do much more with talent investment up to shadowburn than with ruin. Both dark pact and Soul link give a lot better staying power than Ruin.

Ruin builds depend on inconsistent crits in pvp. Full talent spec Searing Pain, the crits become more consistent, but ruin alone isn't enough. Dark pact and Soul link investment are still far superior to ruin.

[Lissa]

Small samples means you depend on small unlikely chances to win a battle. That's bull. Crits are wonderful when they happen, but only a desperate player is going to depend on them. In small samples, you'd also run out of mana or life with a Ruin investment. That's less overall damage.  I don't need just one or two crits. I want them all dead. Ruin doesn't provide the staying power compared to dark pact or soul link.

And that is where you are totally wrong. In group orientation, what is the first thing you do as a Warlock when you see an enemy Warlock, you BANISH their pet. How much staying power does a Pact 'Lock or Link 'Lock have when their pet is Banished, very little. They just invested 31 talent points, most wastefully if they went Link, and you just took away their little ace in the hole. The problem is Drasca, you are looking at this in a 1vX mode, don't. SM/Ruin is designed for GROUP and RAID play, not solo or two person situations. This is the complete power of SM/Ruin and the complete downfall of Pact and Link, the group dynamic. The ability to kick out large amounts of damage QUICKLY is the key to a successful PvP and PvE confrontation, this is why Mages and Rogues excell in PvP.

You don't see beyond the single, double, triple, crit picture. Too bad.
You won't be able to spam SB's against any half decent opponent. PvP, group or no, is about tactics, control and interrupts. Out damaging only works when they have pitifully low health, and even our PvP rogues have over 4k health.

And as I stated above, a Link 'Lock that has had their pet Banished is SCREWED! Remember that, if the Pet is banished, it aids you in no way, not even by taking damage, being sacrificable, or generally using its powers in your favor. Meantime, an SM/Ruin 'Lock can toss out a variety of spells like Corruption to try and get a proc for a SB, Siphon Life, Death Coil, Searing Pain, Shadowburn, Immolate, SB normal cast if they can keep people off them, and a variety of other things. The Link 'Lock has lost their main reason for their talent expenditures once the pet gets Banished, the SM/Ruin 'Lock shrugs and keeps going while the Link 'Lock shrivels up and dies.

I've already calculated SB spam damage, and for every component. Its not that much more damage.

On a small scale, its one shadowbolt. One crit? One battle? Pfft. Not enough.

Warlocks do much more with talent investment up to shadowburn than with ruin. Both dark pact and Soul link give a lot better staying power than Ruin.

Ruin builds depend on inconsistent crits in pvp. Full talent spec Searing Pain, the crits become more consistent, but ruin alone isn't enough. Dark pact and Soul link investment are still far superior to ruin.
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Again Drasca, what good is Link or Pact when your demon is BANISHED! You forget that Warlocks are probably their own worst opponents because they know what the other Warlock can do and the smart Warlock Banishes as the first thing. You totally keep glossing over this one aspect and keep trying to play around like your opponent isn't going to be smart enough to think of this route. We're Warlocks, we know our class weaknesses and we know our class strenghts and any Warlock that doesn't cast Banish on the enemy Warlock's pet as their first action need to be slapped up side the head. Get it through your head, Banish totally nullifies Soul Link and Dark Pact, mean time, Banish has no real effect on a Destruction 'Lock or an SM/Ruin 'Lock cause they don't need to depend on the crutch that is their pet.

[Drasca]

Oh that's a riot.

Rogues and Mages have a variaty of stuns, roots, and snares and a whole lot of mobility. That's why they are effective.

The first thing a warlock does is sense demons against enemy locks pets, then ping their location.

Secondly, there isn't a lock guaranteed in battles. Also attempting to banish a FELHUNTER has has the problem of wasted time due to high resists and spell lock.

Dark pact locks can do all your damage and more because they have more mana. If you're wasting 1.5 seconds trying to banish, which turns into a lot more time with their pet on you, CoT, and dots, and time to fear you before you fear them, you're heavily mistaken. Banish first thing? Only if you suck down damage at a very fast rate.

Link locked screwed? Hardly. If I wanted, I could just summon a second pet. In fact, its easiest to shrug off another's lock's damage due to shadow ward, fears and the fact that locks have no rooting ability.

You assume you get time to cast anything. You'll be interrupted, spell locked, silenced, feared, stunned half the time. That is normal for battle. You simply won't be able to output damage because you can't escape away from enemy interrupts like rogues and mages can. You are a glass cannon. I guarantee you'll be one-two shotted by said rogues and mages with that SM/Ruin attitude.

Do you really think any half decent enemy will let you spam? Pfft.

If you're out there banishing, I can fear and spell lock, duh. I gloss over facing why? Locks aren't guaranteed on the battlefield. They're also better taken out by rogues, stuns, counterspells and silence. My spell lock is better served to counter priest and paladin heals.

Get this through your head. You aren't a mage. You have no extreme mobility. Slow cannons will be smashed fast, and ruin still doesn't do greatly superior damage to other builds.

[Lissa]

Oh that's a riot.

Rogues and Mages have a variaty of stuns, roots, and snares and a whole lot of mobility. That's why they are effective.

The first thing a warlock does is sense demons against enemy locks pets, then ping their location.

Secondly, there isn't a lock guaranteed in battles. Also attempting to banish a FELHUNTER has has the problem of wasted time due to high resists and spell lock.

Dark pact locks can do all your damage and more because they have more mana. If you're wasting 1.5 seconds trying to banish, which turns into a lot more time with their pet on you, CoT, and dots, and time to fear you before you fear them, you're heavily mistaken. Banish first thing? Only if you suck down damage at a very fast rate.

Link locked screwed? Hardly. If I wanted, I could just summon a second pet. In fact, its easiest to shrug off another's lock's damage due to shadow ward, fears and the fact that locks have no rooting ability.

You assume you get time to cast anything. You'll be interrupted, spell locked, silenced, feared, stunned half the time. That is normal for battle. You simply won't be able to output damage because you can't escape away from enemy interrupts like rogues and mages can. You are a glass cannon. I guarantee you'll be one-two shotted by said rogues and mages with that SM/Ruin attitude.

Do you really think any half decent enemy will let you spam? Pfft.

If you're out there banishing, I can fear and spell lock, duh. I gloss over facing why? Locks aren't guaranteed on the battlefield. They're also better taken out by rogues, stuns, counterspells and silence. My spell lock is better served to counter priest and paladin heals.

Get this through your head. You aren't a mage. You have no extreme mobility. Slow cannons will be smashed fast, and ruin still doesn't do greatly superior damage to other builds.
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Summon another pet...out of Banish? Now you're reaching Drasca. Just because the pet is Banished does not mean it counts against your limit and you can't sacrifice out from under Banish. Even if you could, the other 'Lock is going to rebanish it ASAP. Get away from the crutch and learn to play the 'Lock without needing a pet around, you'll become a better player because of it.

Drasca, go look again at an SM/Ruin build. You still don't seem to get the reasoning behind it. SM/Ruin is not about spamming long cast spells, it is about getting as many fast cast spells going as possible that leave you mobility while hitting hard.

You also still are looking on this as a small group (less than 5) exercise. In large scale, the Warlock, and their Group/Raid, is better served by what kind of damage they can dish out as quickly as they can.

I suggest you go back and take a good look at the Affliction and Destruction trees as you have been staring at Demonlogy for far too long to recognize where even a Link 'Lock with a Felhunter out is still easy pickings for an SM/Ruin build.

[Skandranon]

You're not paying attention Drasca.  The whole point of Devestation and Ruin is to improve your damage in a small samples which is what a fight is, a small sample of casts.  My comment still stands, in small samples, Devestation and Ruin MAKE a difference.
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I'd like to expand upon Lissa's point for people less obtuse than Drasca. Steady +damage is inferior to +crit in PvP, even though you do more damage over time, because damage over time doesn't take into account how quickly PvP fights resolve. I say resolve because PvP fights can end as quickly as a priest casting Psychic Scream and running the hell away. Fights can end without anybody dying. You need to kill them before they can run away.

Just for easy examples, assume shadowbolts deal 500 damage on average without +damage equipment (the actual number is 455-507, but 500 is a perfectly good approximation). Assume Shadowburn hits for 500 as well, and is used at the end. One warlock has SM/Ruin, and the other is mostly demonology specced but gets +150 damage from gear more than the SM/Ruin warlock, translating to a +128 bonus to shadowbolts and a +65 bonus to shadowburn. Your usual target has 3500 or so hp.

The demonology warlock does damage like so:
628 628 628 628 --- 565
The SM/Ruin warlock:
550 550 550 550 --- 550

After four shadowbolts, or ten whole seconds, they utilize an escape skill and get away. You shadowburn them as they run, but the enemy doesn't die, fight over. Has the guy with more +damage done more damage over time? Conclusively. Has it altered the outcome? No. In both cases, the target gets away after ten seconds and four shadowbolts and meds up somewhere or gets a heal from a party priest. The fight is over, and neither build has succeeded in killing the enemy.

The enemy dies when the numbers look like this:
550 *1100* 660 660 --- 660
or for the demonology spec
628 *942* 754 754 --- 678

It's simple. If you don't crit them, they run away before you kill them and all that superior +damage over time vanishes in a flash heal and a runecloth bandage. This is how small samples matter in PvP. Yes, the majority of your four-shadowbolt volleys are not going to include a crit, no matter what you do or how you spec. But only those which include a crit really have a chance of killing your enemy. Devastation's +5% crit is, indeed, only a small improvement in overall damage. In PvP, however, it increases the likelihood of a situation where you can kill your target by at least 33% - and that assumes you crit 15% of the time already.

This is why CoS also works well in PvP, because it can lead to those giant 2000 point crits. It won't happen all of the time, or even most of the time, but when it does you have a guaranteed kill, whereas the majority of the other times, no matter your spec, they'll get away. Increasing the number of small samples that contain a large burst of damage is, no pun intended, critical. Devastation/Ruin does that, making it extremely advantageous in PvP.

[Drasca]

Summon another pet...out of Banish?  Now you're reaching Drasca.  Just because the pet is Banished does not mean it counts against your limit and you can't sacrifice out from under Banish.  [right][snapback]80226[/snapback][/right]

Summon a different pet, dolt. That's assuming you can even get the HIGH RESIST felhunter banished. I'd sure like to watch you try to attack with that low hp of yours to get the +crit necessary... What if you don't add to +crit equip? Talents only? Your battles will depend on crit rolls. Mine will not.

Oh, for imps, they should never come out of combat immediately against locks. They'll attack when you're feared and cannot banish. DP locks can still have all they want.

As for demon specs, I can still hit hard and fast with nightfall procs or shadowburn depending on the spec.

Raid scale damage is Rain of Fire from range, and focus fire. Only the second is served by SM/Ruin. How much damage is really going to be done to warriors charging in fully bubbled and constantly healed? Hmm? Dps is not king.

5-10 man engagements, heck, I sometimes hellfire suicide bomb because it doesn't do me any serious damage.


Skan, only high agility hunters have 3.5k hp. Even rogues have been going to 4.4k, and I've been fighting them just fine.

There's a little thing called fear which can be cast before someone runs away, an enchant called minor speed increase on boots, snares and roots from your other party members and CoEx affliction talent investment, and epic mounts.

Your kill from damage is never guaranteed because there are so many forms of mitigating damage. Facing warlock? If he's any good and has mana, his shadow ward will absorb 600 damage every 30 seconds.

Why do you think mages cast blizzard from range? Snare and roots. That's what kills.

As for flash heal. Three words, fear, mana drain and spell lock. You absolutely need felhunter facing any decent shadow priest. Your searing pain is not faster than their flash heal, bubble, renew, especially when mind-flay slows your casts.

I'll take the bandaging as an oversight, as you should at the very least have rank 1 IC corruption on the enemy. If no IC Corruption, rank 1 agony is acceptable for dotting, but CoEx will snare enemies using escape skills, and Corruption wears them down. Ice mages will use their block to remove those dots, but that gives you time to chase, bandage yourself, or start casting fear for when they pop out of ice.

If you cannot get close enough to do this due to a large number of enemies in the way, they're simply not going to be killed by you alone without ranged stun/snare. They can out-heal and out-damage you, crit or no. When you coordinate focus fire with stuns/snares/interrupts and finally damage they'll go down regardless, but its the stuns and snares that win the battle, not the dps.

Small scale, there's all forms of burst damage. Chain-gun full improved imp comes to mind.

When CTF'ign with more mage guildmates, especially the awesome pvp mage d-lo who also has 5 pieces of arcanist epic, CoEl is superior to CoS.

The fight is over, and neither build has succeeded in killing the enemy.

That's highly suspicious as dots will finish the enemy. If its a druid, we'll be mounting up to finish them. If they're in range to begin with, you can use fear and chase them down. If they're a priest, they'll have to stop to heal outside of bubble--or if holy, might not be fighting at all.

If using an escape skill as you've said, warlocks have an easy time wearing down runners to death by dots.

If the battle was raid scale and at range, you'll sometimes be able to RoF, sometimes cast a few spells, and sometimes only be able to get shadowburn or death coil in without being attacked yourself. Dps doesn't even matter sometimes. Alterac Valley has fast GY player respawns. Its more than just damage skan, and you know it.

[Lissa]

Summon a different pet, dolt. That's assuming you can even get the HIGH RESIST felhunter banished. I'd sure like to watch you try to attack with that low hp of yours to get the +crit necessary... What if you don't add to +crit equip? Talents only? Your battles will depend on crit rolls. Mine will not.

Oh, for imps, they should never come out of combat immediately against locks. They'll attack when you're feared and cannot banish. DP locks can still have all they want.

As for demon specs, I can still hit hard and fast with nightfall procs or shadowburn depending on the spec.

Raid scale damage is Rain of Fire from range, and focus fire. Only the second is served by SM/Ruin. How much damage is really going to be done to warriors charging in fully bubbled and constantly healed? Hmm? Dps is not king.

5-10 man engagements, heck, I sometimes hellfire suicide bomb because it doesn't do me any serious damage.
Skan, only high agility hunters have 3.5k hp. Even rogues have been going to 4.4k, and I've been fighting them just fine.

There's a little thing called fear which can be cast before someone runs away, an enchant called minor speed increase on boots, snares and roots from your other party members and CoEx affliction talent investment, and epic mounts.

Your kill from damage is never guaranteed because there are so many forms of mitigating damage. Facing warlock? If he's any good and has mana, his shadow ward will absorb 600 damage every 30 seconds.

Why do you think mages cast blizzard from range? Snare and roots. That's what kills.

As for flash heal. Three words, fear, mana drain and spell lock. You absolutely need felhunter facing any decent shadow priest. Your searing pain is not faster than their flash heal, bubble, renew, especially when mind-flay slows your casts.

I'll take the bandaging as an oversight, as you should at the very least have rank 1 IC corruption on the enemy. If no IC Corruption, rank 1 agony is acceptable for dotting, but CoEx will snare enemies using escape skills, and Corruption wears them down. Ice mages will use their block to remove those dots, but that gives you time to chase, bandage yourself, or start casting fear for when they pop out of ice.

If you cannot get close enough to do this due to a large number of enemies in the way, they're simply not going to be killed by you alone without ranged stun/snare. They can out-heal and out-damage you, crit or no. When you coordinate focus fire with stuns/snares/interrupts and finally damage they'll go down regardless, but its the stuns and snares that win the battle, not the dps.

Small scale, there's all forms of burst damage. Chain-gun full improved imp comes to mind.

When CTF'ign with more mage guildmates, especially the awesome pvp mage d-lo who also has 5 pieces of arcanist epic, CoEl is superior to CoS.
That's highly suspicious as dots will finish the enemy. If its a druid, we'll be mounting up to finish them. If they're in range to begin with, you can use fear and chase them down. If they're a priest, they'll have to stop to heal outside of bubble--or if holy, might not be fighting at all.

If using an escape skill as you've said, warlocks have an easy time wearing down runners to death by dots.

If the battle was raid scale and at range, you'll sometimes be able to RoF, sometimes cast a few spells, and sometimes only be able to get shadowburn or death coil in without being attacked yourself. Dps doesn't even matter sometimes. Alterac Valley has fast GY player respawns. Its more than just damage skan, and you know it.
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Now you're just rambling. You still don't get it and I don't think you ever will.

How do you propose to summon another pet when the one is Banished and COUNTS against your limit of pets and you can't sac it while it's under Banish? Come on Drasca, you call me a dolt and them make that kind of statement? Who's the dolt now?

What's the highest non-crit you've ever done with your Demonology build and what items where you using at the time? I can tell you for a fact that the highest non-crit I got with an SM/Ruin build with a measly +55 damage (7/8 Dreadmist and Skyshroud Leggings, the +34 damage to all) was giving me NON-CRIT Shadowbolts with CoS up of 1036 (this is without the debuff from Improved Shadowbolt crits as well, crits with Improved Shadowbolt debuff were in the 2.2k range). Tell me Drasca, can you match that damage with only +55 damage and no SM/Ruin build, no, you can't. Will you're 10k health (with Link which can be gotten around) matter if I am able to dish out that damage before you are able to do 6k to me?

You seem to think that just because you play on a PvP server you know more than others, the fact is, you don't. You haven't a clue about what really ends a PvP confrontation. You sit there and say, "well I'll just keep adding +damage and keep on rocking" and you will be sacrificing Health and Stamina or Mana and Int to achieve that. You know, I know it, so quit making it look like you can lay out a lot of bull#$%& and I'll fall for it. I know the Warlock probably better than you do because I have tried the various options available and I've seen the whole. I also pay attention to what other Warlocks are saying and I laugh anytime someone is like, "Link is the greatest." Here's a tip, it isn't. I only prolongs the inevitiable. If you cannot take down your opponent in a short amount of time, you're going to die. You have to drop the other person quickly, Warlocks have no out and thus have to take them out.

You're little comment about fear shows just how out of the loop your are. Just about all classes out there have an anti-fear trinket, especially all caster classes and rogues. Others have outright fear immunity abilities like Warriors and Undead. Do you honestly think that if someone is running away you're going to be able to use fear to stop them? Please...they're gonna use that trinket and keep on going.

And DoTs finishing someone off? Only if they're stupid.

Learn to live without the crutch Drasca, you'll be a better Warlock for it if you do.

[Drasca]

how do you propose to summon another pet when the one is Banished and [b][i][right][snapback]80357[/snapback][/right]

Nublar, You can always summon another pet. Haven't you ever summoned the same imp before, or summoned a succubus while you have an imp? Your current pet quickly disappears once you attempt summoning. There is no 'pet limit' when summoning another pet, and different ones won't be pre-banished.

Haven't you ever summoned an imp to break enslave demon either?

matter if I am able to dish out that damage before you are able to do 6k to me?

That's assuming you even get a chance to fight, or that its a one-on-one warlock battle. As for Lock-vs-lock whoever most smartly uses fear/mez/shadowward, dances, when to pull imp out of phase, and spell lock wins. You cannot do damage while feared or spell locked. You cannot banish the imp when its untargettable. In party battles, there are many forms of stun, silence, and aoe fear which will interrupt your ability to cast.

You're little comment about fear shows just how out of the loop your are.  Just about all classes out there have an anti-fear trinket

You think that matters when everyone's been chain aoe feared 3 times in 10 seconds? So what if they use trinket? Warrior bloodrage? They're all on timer. Learn to recognize when fear is an option. See warrior battle stance? Fearable.

Dolt. Not everyone can dispel, not everyone has time to bandage, and while they're dott'ed they're in combat that much longer. The point of dots are to weaken, finish, cause disarray, and nightfall procs.

Ruin doesn't do enough consistent damage because locks don't have instants. Its shadowburn that finishes people, and that can be achieved with only 11 talent points.

Heck yes Soul link prolongs the battle, that's sometimes just what you need for reinforcements to arrive, or to delay your enemy while your party makes manuevers. Locks only have one consistent instant, that's shadowburn and its best for a finisher, not to wear an enemy down at over half health. Death coil's too long a timer, and nightfall while appreciated is inconsistent.

Enabling the enemy to be worn down, using mana to curse of exhaustion snares, roots and interrupts, like our fears: generally buying time for your party to use its abilities--combo points, executes, is how to win battles. Those are all party and teamwork oriented skills. Individual damage just doesn't cut it when the rogue next to you will backstab and eviscerate if but give him the target to do it, and the other party members a chance to perform their functions.

[lfd]

Nublar
...
Dolt
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Would both of you stop with the silly name-calling now?

You can always summon another pet
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That's assuming you even get a chance to fight
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Doesn't it take Some Time to summon a pet? I've not played a warlock to any kind of level to know how they work late or even mid-game, or how talents may affect this, but I do know it takes an awful long time to summon an imp when you first get the ability.

[KiloVictor]

Would both of you stop with the silly name-calling now?[right][snapback]80379[/snapback][/right]

Amen.

Doesn't it take Some Time to summon a pet?  I've not played a warlock to any kind of level to know how they work late or even mid-game, or how talents may affect this, but I do know it takes an awful long time to summon an imp when you first get the ability.
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If you're specced in Demonology, you can insta-summon a pet every 15 minutes using Fel Domination. It actually takes only 5.5 seconds off the summon time, but most Demonology specs will also have the Master Summoner talent at 2/2, which removes a further 4 sec. So the net is that getting a new pet takes 6 seconds most of the time, or is instant once every 15 minutes.

Thanks Lissa for the statistical calculations on chance of critting during an encounter, that does really point out why Devastation and Ruin is more useful in practice than it looks on paper.

Kv

[Lissa]

Amen.

If you're specced in Demonology, you can insta-summon a pet every 15 minutes using Fel Domination. It actually takes only 5.5 seconds off the summon time, but most Demonology specs will also have the Master Summoner talent at 2/2, which removes a further 4 sec. So the net is that getting a new pet takes 6 seconds most of the time, or is instant once every 15 minutes.

Thanks Lissa for the statistical calculations on chance of critting during an encounter, that does really point out why Devastation and Ruin is more useful in practice than it looks on paper.

Kv
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No problem on the statistics of Dev/Ruin.

As to the name calling, it was late and Drasca's condencending attitude and name calling broke the straw on the camel's back. Usually I don't get into open flaming like that, but Drasca did have it coming... :P

[Lissa]

Nublar, You can always summon another pet. Haven't you ever summoned the same imp before, or summoned a succubus while you have an imp? Your current pet quickly disappears once you attempt summoning. There is no 'pet limit' when summoning another pet, and different ones won't be pre-banished.

And I'll just rebanish the next pet. You can try flipping pets around all you want, but once you use your 1/2 second summon, you're screwed. Are you gonna sit there like a sitting duck for 5+ seconds while I'm damaging you and maybe even using my own 'Hunter to lock down you? Come on Drasca, a Demon spec can't do the amount of things you just named.

Haven't you ever summoned an imp to break enslave demon either?
That's assuming you even get a chance to fight, or that its a one-on-one warlock battle. As for Lock-vs-lock whoever most smartly uses fear/mez/shadowward, dances, when to pull imp out of phase, and spell lock wins.  You cannot do damage while feared or spell locked. You cannot banish the imp when its untargettable.

Let's see, you just pulled out 3 pets during that exchange. How do you plan to use all these abilities when the best you could do is have 1 pet out initially and then swap them out for another. With a Demon build, you don't have near as many options to "Dance" as you seem to think you do. The extent of your dance is either hoping Nightfall procs and you get an SB or throwing a Shadowburn (not both as you don't have the talent points for it). The more you talk about how all these things you can do during a fight and the fact is that you can't do half of them with a demon build smacks both of eqo and lack of knowledge of just what each talent build allows you to do.

In party battles, there are many forms of stun, silence, and aoe fear which will interrupt your ability to cast.
You think that matters when everyone's been chain aoe feared 3 times in 10 seconds? So what if they use trinket? Warrior bloodrage? They're all on timer. Learn to recognize when fear is an option. See warrior battle stance? Fearable.

Do you honestly think, that in a group instance you're going to need that trinket that much? Both sides have a number of ways of dropping a fear/mez effect from Shamans dropping grounding totems or using purge, Priests using dispell, Pallies using Cleanse, various other means of dropping one of these effects? Fear is not going to stop someone from running. Either they're gonna have the trinket for when it matters most or your fear is going to last 2 seconds, maybe which isn't enough to stop someone, especially if they have the right tools on them.

Dolt. Not everyone can dispel, not everyone has time to bandage, and while they're dott'ed they're in combat that much longer. The point of dots are to weaken, finish, cause disarray, and nightfall procs.

Who's talking about using Bandaids or Dispells? There are so many different ways to heal while a DoT is on you that isn't even funny. Like I said, anyone that dies from a DoT is just being stupid (ever heard of Whipper Roots? Ever heard of healing potions? Take a look at Thottbot sometimes on ways to mitigate Shadow or Fire damage, you'd be surprised just how many ways someone can get out from under a DoT and survive if they're not stupid).

Ruin doesn't do enough consistent damage because locks don't  have instants. Its shadowburn that finishes people, and that can be achieved with only 11 talent points.

LMAO, that's cause you're Demon spec. Take a look at what you get sometime going SM/Ruin. For instants, I have Corruption, Siphon, Coil (on 10 minute timer), Shadowburn, Nightfall Procs, and CoA though I rather use a different curse. If you bothered to look at the other talent builds, you would see that a Warlock can dish out a lot of damage in the first 5 seconds of a confrontation.

Heck yes Soul link prolongs the battle, that's sometimes just what you need for reinforcements to arrive, or to delay your enemy while your party makes manuevers. Locks only have one consistent instant, that's shadowburn and its best for a finisher, not to wear an enemy down at over half health. Death coil's too long a timer, and nightfall while appreciated is inconsistent.

And if you're dealing with smart opponent(s), you Link will be of little use. Either they'll find someway of getting it off you or they'll just trash your pet. Have you ever had a Rogue Blind you and then proceed while you're blinded to kill you pet and then start thrashing you? Demon isn't going to save you in that build anymore than any other build. Smart Rogues know to drop our pets first while we're blinded and then drop us, demonolgy speced or not.

Enabling the enemy to be worn down, using mana to curse of exhaustion snares, roots and interrupts, like our fears: generally buying time for your party to use its abilities--combo points, executes, is how to win battles. Those are all party and teamwork oriented skills. Individual damage just doesn't cut it when the rogue next to you will backstab and eviscerate if but give him the target to do it, and the other party members a chance to perform their functions.
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With a Demon build you can't have Exhaustion, it takes 21 to 25 points to be able to get and you don't have that if you went to Link. With SM/Ruin, I have CoEx (with 3 improvements), you don't with Link build. How are you going to slow down an opponent then so your party can womp on them? Oh, that's right, fear...please...fear is crutch as much as a pet is a crutch. Walk without the crutches Drasca, you'll become a better Warlock for it.

[Drasca]

And I'll just rebanish the next pet.

Really, you think I'm going to sit there doing nothing while you banish? Time spent casting + interrupts = time you're being feared and/or pounded on by spells. Where's your destruction while busy being interrupted while banishing?

Let's see, you just pulled out 3 pets during that exchange

.

That's displaying options for any pet.

Do you honestly think, that in a group instance you're going to need that trinket that much?

You're the one who brought it up, straw man.

Both sides have a number of ways of dropping a fear/mez effect from Shamans dropping grounding totems or using purge, Priests using dispell, Pallies using Cleanse,

Purge doesn't work on friendlies. Grounding totems are costly, can be destroyed, or simply lured away from. Cleanse and Dispel don't work on self while feared. Don't you understand the word interrupt, as in, interrupting heals.

various other means of dropping one of these effects? Fear is not going to stop someone from running.

Obviously you've never seen there power of controlled fear + snare, or feared into your group.

Who's talking about using Bandaids or Dispells?

You. See above.

Ever heard of healing potions?

Limited supply. Total waste in pvp servers, and also on a cooldown.

And if you're dealing with smart opponent(s),

Obviously, you aren't one of them. Oh now you think dots are front loaded damage do you? Get a life. You've totally bashed dots throughout as 'no good' in pvp damage and Ruin does not improve your dot damage.

Have you ever had a Rogue Blind you and then proceed while you're blinded to kill you pet and then start thrashing you?

Heart of Noxxion. Wonderful field trinket. Again, only desperate rogues blind, or even bother to to kill pet. Attacking felhunter is a waste of time too. I'm happy when they do, because they lose 200 att power while I can dot and health funnel. Succubi will just charm the rogue, voidwalker can be sacrificed before dead, and imp? Imp should not be on defensive all the time. They're untargettable and most rogues can't don't even consider selecting them. Also, when rogues attack they pet, they aren't building combo points against you, thus losing a lot of power against you.

In a group, I sure hope they waste time on my massive health and pets.

1v1, if they've wasted enough time and resources to sap/blind, they must think themselves a weak rogue. No self-respecting rogue will blind until they need to, and that's to escape/restealth/bandage.

Demon isn't going to save you in that build anymore than any other build. Smart Rogues know to drop our pets first while we're blinded and then drop us, demonolgy speced or not.

Blind only lasts 8-10 seconds, doesn't work vs imps on passive (which it should be in any precise battle), limited use against voidwalkers, gets them charmed against succubi, and weakens them against felhunters. All the while, they're losing opportunity to build combo points and lost 1/3 a fadeleaf. Financial loss, limited carry-able resource loss, and limited use. Hmm. No, smart rogues will focus on you, not your pet. If they really wanted to kill you, they'd use their sprint/prep cooldowns, and prep crippling poisons.

Also, first pet dying isn't a problem with fel domination. With that, only costs 100 mana now, and half a second to cast.

With a Demon build you can't have Exhaustion,

Duh. All this time, I've said Dark pact or Demon, or any hybrid combination without Ruin. I'm fully aware of the limitations of Soul Link. They're irrelevant compared to the limited utility of Ruin in PvP without improved SP to raise +crit to a reasonable level.

[lfd]

Really, you think I'm going to sit there doing nothing while you banish?

Presumably you think your opponent is just going to sit there while you summon another pet.

Don't you understand the word interrupt
...
Get a life.
...
Duh
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You just can't help yourself, can you? Again, stop with the silly insults, I say. They do nothing but detract from your point and make you seem like an impetuous child who isn't getting his own way.

[Tal]

Lissa, Drasca - please debate the subject and refrain from the insults. After all if you have to insult someone in the course of a debate it shows how weak you view your own arguments.

[Lissa]

Really, you think I'm going to sit there doing nothing while you banish? Time spent casting + interrupts = time you're being feared and/or pounded on by spells. Where's your destruction while busy being interrupted while banishing?

I can say the same while you're doing recasting of a pet. You think I'm going to let you get that .5 second pet off with a Felhunter of my own?

That's displaying options for any pet.

Nope, you talked specifically about using powers of three different pets during one confrontation. You said Lock, Mez, and Imp during one battle, that's three pets Drasca.

You're the one who brought it up, straw man.

Purge doesn't work on friendlies. Grounding totems are costly, can be destroyed, or simply lured away from. Cleanse and Dispel don't work on self while feared. Don't you understand the word interrupt, as in, interrupting heals.

Nope, it's a valid arguement, and you just proved why it's a valid arguement. There are ways for a group to deal with CC. Grounding totems are relatively cheap in cost. Tremor totems are also cheap in cost, both deal with CC in someway (Tremor does it better). Cleanse and Dispel don't need to work on self. Anyone that bunches up their CC removers together is asking to get whomp. You're not going to get all the CC removing people in one fear unless the other side is just be dumb.

Obviously you've never seen there power of controlled fear + snare, or feared into your group.

You're not going to get that in a group setup Drasca unless the other side is being dumb. Any CC with a group that is being smart will only last for a second before it's gone and all the people that can remove CC will be watching for it.

You. See above.

No, you need to stop thinking that everything is going to be optimally setup for you to pull off have the tricks you think you can pull off. It's not going to happen unless the other side is being dumb. You seem to think everyone else is stupid, but the truth is, you're tactics show that you're not thinking about all cases, only the most optimal for you.

Limited supply. Total waste in pvp servers, and also on a cooldown.
Obviously, you aren't one of them. Oh now you think dots are front loaded damage do you? Get a life. You've totally bashed dots throughout as 'no good' in pvp damage and Ruin does not improve your dot damage.

You said that DoTs kill people even if you die, and I say otherwise. I then proved that you are incorrect, there are many, many ways to mitigate a DoT once the DoTer is down. The fact that you're unwilling to look for those ways shows as I stated above, you think that only the optimal situation for you will exist, this is rarely the case. As I said in my last post, go take a look at Thottbot to see what's available to mitigate DoT damage and see how worthless DoT damage is after you're dead.

Also, I'd like that you not throw words in my mouth. I never said DoTs were front loaded. I stated, as I just stated above, that anyone that has a clue about how to mitigate DoT damage will just kill you and won't die because they know how to mitigate that damage. Just because you do not, doesn't mean that the other person may know more about deal with the situation than you do.

Heart of Noxxion. Wonderful field trinket. Again, only desperate rogues blind, or even bother to to kill pet. Attacking felhunter is a waste of time too. I'm happy when they do, because they lose 200 att power while I can dot and health funnel. Succubi will just charm the rogue, voidwalker can be sacrificed before dead, and imp? Imp should not be on defensive all the time. They're untargettable and most rogues can't don't even consider selecting them. Also, when rogues attack they pet, they aren't building combo points against you, thus losing a lot of power against you.

Heart of Noxxion? LMAO...that's for poisions Drasca, Blind is not a poison, it's a disorient. Rogues will use blind to keep you out of the fight and then proceed to destroy your pet whatever it may be. Do you honestly think a Succubus is going to get off seduce in the time it takes the Rogue to kill it? She only has about 1.8k health and Rogues can easily do that before the blind it up and easily interrupt her many times before she dies. Do you also think that Tainted Blood is going to matter that much to a Rogue? Once you're pet is down, you're toast as you cannot out damage a Rogue even when they're debuffed by Tainted Blood. Also, you keep talking about Imp this or Imp that...the Imp can only enter into the phased state prior to combat, once combat begins they can't phase out and the Imp have half the health a succubus does, it's going die even quicker and once they're back in phase, they're easy to target and kill.

In a group, I sure hope they waste time on my massive health and pets.

You're massive health isn't that massive when you have people hitting you for upwards of 2k damage with certain abilities (MS comes to mind, Ambush from a stealthed Rogue, another Warlock with a Ruin build, a Hunter with an Aimed Shot when you're not expecting). 6k Health can disappear in the blink of an eye in a combat and as such you can be steam rolled easily.

1v1, if they've wasted enough time and resources to sap/blind, they must think themselves a weak rogue. No self-respecting rogue will blind until they need to, and that's to escape/restealth/bandage.

If a Rogue needs to restealth, they're gonna use Vanish. If they need to bandage, they'll either use Blind or Gouge. If they need to escape, they may use Vanish, Blind, or Sprint. Learn your enemies Drasca. Saying that they'll just use Blind to escape/restealth/bandage shows how little you know your enemy.

Blind only lasts 8-10 seconds, doesn't work vs imps on passive (which it should be in any precise battle), limited use against voidwalkers, gets them charmed against succubi, and weakens them against felhunters. All the while, they're losing opportunity to build combo points and lost 1/3 a fadeleaf. Financial loss, limited carry-able resource loss, and limited use. Hmm. No, smart rogues will focus on you, not your pet. If they really wanted to kill you, they'd use their sprint/prep cooldowns, and prep crippling poisons.

A Rogue isn't going to use Blind until your pet activates. Until that happens, they're gonna target you. Once the Imp or Succubus show themselves, then the rogue with Blind you and take out the pet then come back for you. Also, a smart rogue will simply use prep, ambush (and have the talents to make sure they get 2 points out of the ambush), hit you with some other combo point getting power and then hit you with an evicerate for 5 combo points and if they built right, will turn around and have another combo point ready if need be.

Also, first pet dying isn't a problem with fel domination. With that, only costs 100 mana now, and half a second to cast.

And it's time and mana that you now have to deal with and some watching you closely will hit you with a silence of some kind before you get to use that .5 second recast and then you're screwed until the silence wears off.

Duh. All this time, I've said Dark pact or Demon, or any hybrid combination without Ruin. I'm fully aware of the limitations of Soul Link. They're irrelevant compared to the limited utility of Ruin in PvP without improved SP to raise +crit to a reasonable level.
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No Drasca, you made it seem like you had all these options availble to you. You kept rattling off this power or that power that you would use thinking that some uneducated about the Warlock trees would just nod and say sure. I called you on it several times but you like to change the subject in your arguments when you're shown to be wrong.

You also still seem to not understand what the SM/Ruin build is about. Let me give you a hint, it's a Pact build without Pact, DE, or Improved Imp and instead puts the 21 points down into Destruction to get Ruin. It is the most rounded build possible for the Warlock as it gives you excellent Solability in PvE, excellent Group play in PvE and PvP, and it gives you moderate Solabiltiy in PvP. Try sitting down with IGN's talent calculator some time and play with the builds available, maybe, just maybe, you'll see why SM/Ruin is probably the best all around build available.

[Drasca]

I can say the same while you're doing recasting of a pet. You think I'm going to let you get that .5 second pet off with a Felhunter of my own?

Lag alone is lets demonology locks summon .5 sec pets, not to mention doing so when you're feared.

Pick your battles.

1v1, demon locks could simply summon every 15 minutes. Good DP locks (with imp), will keep their imp phased out until its ready to finish you. DP locks also have all the burst damage options you do and sometimes more if their equip is better. In prolonged 'stuck in combat' battles, especially when stopping to bandage is not an option, its their advantage.

Group? If banish is the first thing you do, you're wasting time.

You also completely ignore the very often occurence when there's no enemy locks nearby. Demon sense should be on at all PvP times. Early detection and annihilation.

Grounding totems are relatively cheap in cost. Tremor totems are also cheap in cost, both deal with CC in someway (Tremor does it better). Cleanse and Dispel don't need to work on self.

You think there's optimal defense all the friggin time? In the CTF thread, there's post upon post of using warlock fear/howl to successfully scatter and disrupt groups.

Any CC with a group that is being smart will only last for a second before it's gone and all the people that can remove CC will be watching for it.

Again, you assume optimal defense. That is regularly interrupted, and a second dispelling is a second not healing.

No, you need to stop thinking that everything is going to be optimally setup for you to pull off have the tricks you think you can pull off.

Do you really think I don't know there are counters? You pull off tricks when they can be done, not completely ignore them and label them as impossible just because they enemy MAY counter IF they have the right classes available.

You see a counter, you switch tactics and consider doing it later. You adapt your bag of tricks. Being charged while howling? Sure, that's a risk. Learn to abuse corners, and surprise better. Enemy not running into you while you howl. Smart enemy. Coordinate movement dismount into enemy to howl, or simply do something else in the meantime.

Fear not working on one enemy? Switch targets. Disrupt someone else not focusing on you. Under attack by a rogue with mind numbing or crippling poison? Duh. Not much will help. If they're focused, they'll use kicks. If not, fear and instants, and defense are your only hope.


I said dots weaken, counter rogue re-stealth, and finish people trying to escape. IC also helps your burst nightfalls. They do that. CoA's already proven to be buggy upon death, outright disappearing, doing no damage when ooc or out of range. Think I don't know that?

Rogues will use blind to keep you out of the fight and then proceed to destroy your pet whatever it may be.

Again, only if they're a poor rogue. In group situations, the blind cooldown is saved for higher priority targets, and you will run out of fadeleaf eventually.

Do you honestly think a Succubus is going to get off seduce in the time it takes the Rogue to kill it?

Why wouldn't you have your succubus on lesser invis if you're the one being ambushed?

If you somehow aren't already gimped by not having a pet at all, and rogue actually blinds you first, I pity the rogue that wastes their blind.

In both group and 1v1, its a waste of time to kill pets. Faster to simply kill owner.

Do you also think that Tainted Blood is going to matter that much to a Rogue? Once you're pet is down

Good felhunters don't die. 1v1, if you're ambushed, you've already setup the gimp situation that won't easily save your bum no matter what talent spec you have.

In group, there's plenty of buffs and debuffs to constantly eat and regain health with. Tainted blood does matter.

Also, you keep talking about Imp this or Imp that...the Imp can only enter into the phased state prior to combat, once combat begins they can't phase out

Duh. You keep on assuming ambushed. If you're ambushed starting at 2k health, in combat, that's a moot point to argue. You should keep your imp phased at all times until you need him. He is considered untargetable and rogues don't bother to attack because they are building combo points on you, not your pet.

you have people hitting you for upwards of 2k damage with certain abilities.

You can assume massive ambush, but those are all moot points. There are unwinnable situations. You do not waste your cooldowns and limited supplies on them. However, SL locks can easily shrug off 2k damage. 6k health /w SL + 1440 HS + DL + DC. Hmm. If in groups, you may add healing support on top of that, and your enemy has suddenly wasted a lot of attempted damage.

Soul link owns 1v1 and small unit engagements. With it, defeating Aimed Crits, MS warriors, surviving ambushes is regularly possible. I'm not going to bother to push this point further, because you simply can't grasp what's done by battle.

If a Rogue needs to restealth, they're gonna use Vanish. If they need to bandage, they'll either use Blind or Gouge.

Against a dotting lock? Doesn't work.

If they need to escape, they may use Vanish, Blind, or Sprint.

Afflic locks own attempted rogue escapes with CoEx and dots. You've lost sight of basic lock abilities and talents. Rogues are nothing without their mobility, and dots / CoEx own that.

You also assume their cooldowns are up and available. Field conditions are much more variable. Harumph. I know better than you what a rogue can and cannot do. Their combo points are hard won, blinds and cooldowns are not unlimited, can and do often fail (ask any rogue about how awful it is when blinds are parried/dodged, and vanish fails), and they're also limited by talent pool.

SM/Ruin's not going to regularly save you in any of the cases you've presented me. Soul Link could. More crit damage never helps when you're interrupted, or CC in some manner. Somestimes, when you blow all your cooldowns and a shard, you'll get enough crit and burst to finish someone ambushing you, but that won't matter once they're alive again and you've got no deathcoil.

You only think SM/Ruin's the best because you have no clue what else is available beyond damage, nor what the limiations of Ruin are. Low crit base crit chance? Undependable.

In PvE, the worst thing you can do in MC is pull aggro, and Ruin can guarantee that. What? Space out your shadowbolts? You'll be doing less damage, thereby negating the point of going +damage / ruin all-together. Pre-level 60 PvE, Ruin's also pretty pointless too. No gear to utilize it. All other damage enchancing talents are superior.

Meanwhile... there's a SL/Destruction lock out there with +340 shadow damage doing 2k-3k crits without Ruin, base 1k shadowbolts, doing solid offense with defensive options intact--all without Ruin. I'll link his bragging post if necessary, but he's definitely a case where Ruin becomes inferior to PvE and PvP use.

Harumph. You have massive oversights about when abilities can and cannot be use, and when they're used.

A rogue's not going to waste their combo points building up to an eviscerate on your pet, nor have all their cooldowns available all the time. Similarly, you do not waste time fearing a rogue sprinting and kicking around you, nor will they be able to escape via vanish or bandage when you can IC dot. Attempting so is a waste.

What happens when you're fearing a rogue/(insert class here) off someone else? Does it really matter that they use a trinket? No. You've just interrupted their offense. Your ally, who could've been finished, now has a chance to retaliate. Fearing runners? So what if they use a trinket, now they've ran in direction seperate from their angle of escape, again disrupting.

Battle happens, and all your presumed counters become spotty. People get out of range, lose line of sight, get interrupted themselves (what good is a priest dispeller when feared too?). You take risks on what works and what doesn't, and calculate better the next time. Fear, and howl work for enemy disruption. Its all over the CTF thread here at LL and other fora. Oooh some players have trinkets. They're on 3-5 min cooldowns. Other counters--can also be nullified or prevented all together!

You're only gimping yourself when you keep your imp unphased all the time in combat, not using lesser invisibility on your succubus, and assuming your abilities will always be countered. Knowing the when part of executing your abilities determine whether they'll fail or succeed. You assume they'll always fail because you never consider the when aspect. Fear the priest or paladin so they can't heal. I think I'll risk that. I know they can have shadow resistence or possibly fear ward. So what? Its worth preventing them from healing others while my party finishes theirs off. Banish my pet? Focus only on it? Go ahead and try. Waste of time. Its no good when you're being pounded on yourself. While you banish, my pet and spell attacks will interrupt you and give me a +time advantage in executing damage.

Plus, if you think SL is easily devoured in a 1v1 situation, you're gravely mistaken. Buff removal is random, and I'm of the sort that recasts UB/Detect lesser invisibilty buffs on just to fool enemy debuffers. One in Three, or one in four, how're those odds vs self-devour of dots whittling damage against you?

SL is not nearly as weak as you think nor ability to fear/howl. SL in combination with destruction's intensity, the lock becomes the premier AoE'er combining both ability to dish and absorb damage without interruption.

Who'd do that? Someone smarter than SM/Ruin alone.