time for some european politics

[Minionman]

If you want to understand what is behind it all, look at the secularist attacks for the last 200+ years, starting about 1789.  That is where the antipathy for America's core has its roots, though that is just one strain of it.  The post 1848 strain of anti Americanism is more pernicious.  It is the fear of the peculiar American strain of the Scots-Irish legacy of the indomitable man as sovereign in himself, and willing to fight, bleed, and die to remain so.  Some call it "Jacksonian" others things less charitable. 

It scares the self important lying intellectual snobs of Europe, it scares the lying intellectual snobs of America, and it scares the insecure intellectuals who created Communism and its bastard children.  It scares the lying, two faced scum who try to perpetrate the concept of PC: the so-called Frankfurt School.

So they attack it, try to work around it, undermine it, sabotage it, and always have done so.  This is not new, as you pointed out.  Not hardly.

What's new is the tools.  It is information age warfare.  Iraq is a diversion.  The war's aim is to bind the individual to the chains of the lying intellectual class of self important meglomaniacs.  What is gratifying is to see the voters of Europe wake up, and show some sparks of their own spirit.

War is something you fight to win, or you lose. 

Occhi
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Could you explain this a little better?

[eppie]

The impression I get from most Europeans towards Americans is similar to the mindset when we entered WWI: "Yeah, sure we like you.  Just drop off what we need in men and material and let us make all the decisions.  You Yanks can't seem to ever get it right (read: do what we want)."

---well I don't know about that. I think there are very few europeans that when they think about a united europe they think about a new world power to give some oposition to teh US, Russia and China. Because what it is all abouit is free trade. A united europe is heaven for companies because they can let there labour done wherever they want. I personally like the fact that if I go on holliday I don't have to change currency. :D

What I see from many Americans at this time toward Europe is "Fine, we don't need you, we'll just sit over here and act like the spoiled brats everybody says we are."

we don't think you are spolied brats. Today I read that 15 % of the children in the US suffer from malnutrition No we don't think you are spoiled.
And we are a bit scared as well....as soon as the overprized real estate bubble burst teh whole world will plunge in a huge economic crisis.....just say we are worried. :D

I see it demonstrated over and over. We pledge foriegn aid, it isn't enough. (Not to mention the fact that only government donations were counted for tsunami relief, not private donations by American citizens.)

---And then substract the private finds from bill gates..and we are back at ... :D (sorry I just could not help that)


We pledge money to fight AIDS, that isn't good enough because we retained control of how it's spent and didn't just give it over to the powers that be.

Now I'll retreat to the safety of my Nomex firesuit and hope I don't get burned to badly in the flames.
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I find flaming a bit senseless...I just have a different opinion.. cheers, eppie

[Kylearan]

Hi,

could you please try to use the quote tag a bit more thoughtful? I find it very hard to discern where the quoted text ends and your comments begin. Also, replying to your post becomes more difficult because the forum software chokes on the wrongly nested quote tags and eats up some of your post when quoting you.

Consider using preview, thanks! :)

I think there are very few europeans that when they think about a united europe they think about a new world power to give some oposition to teh US, Russia and China. Because what it is all abouit is free trade

On the contrary. It might have been all about free trade in the beginning, but now the EU is more about than just that. Since 9/11, the relationship of many EU nations with the USA has become a lot more, uh, complex. The USA and the EU disagree on a lot of things like how to deal with Iraq, Iran, the importance of human rights etc., but since might makes right, all we could do was protest (and quarrel among ourselves, or course...) while watching (more or less) helplessly how things were done by the US. Now if you've read the newspapers or listened to what many European politicians, especially the French, have said when discussing the European constitution, then you will see that many people want just that: A new superpower in (friendly) opposition to the only superpower that exists at the moment, the USA. Or why do you think there had been so much talk about a European foreign minister, or about building up a European military? Only to protect free trade? :lol:

-Kylearan

[eppie]

Hi,

could you please try to use the quote tag a bit more thoughtful? I find it very hard to discern where the quoted text ends and your comments begin. Also, replying to your post becomes more difficult because the forum software chokes on the wrongly nested quote tags and eats up some of your post when quoting you.

Consider using preview, thanks! :)
-Kylearan
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Sorry, ever since the new forum, i cannot get the hang of that quoting....I will check it a bit more careful next time.

About what you said: I don't believe the people think of europe like this. As you pointed out there was a lot of disagreement about the Iraq war. I wonder how we are going to do this when we are really united? I guess most of the eastern european countries (the new members) will probably be in favour of supporting the US, but I don't think in the west people think the same.
Well at least it might give some tough debates.

Which reminds me. I think english should be the only language in the EP. The way it goes now (with a few 100 translaters) looks a bit oldfashioned to me.

[Occhidiangela]

Which reminds me. I think english should be the only language in the EP. The way it goes now (with a few 100 translaters) looks a bit oldfashioned to me.
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If they won't do it in NATO, probably won't happen in the EU. ;) NATO has two official languages, English and French (wherein NATO is spelled OTAN.) The big big dog behind English is USA, the other big dog is the UK, and British English is for official use (or as the Brits call it, proper English :D armour, civilised, etc. ) Lack of two big dogs decreases the weight behind English as a "sole" language in the EU.

While I have not dog in that fight, I agree with your sentiment from a practical sense. I don't see it happening due to the political implications of language.

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

Could you explain this a little better?
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Not at present.

Taken to an extreme, the macro themes point to a possible cabal of super wealthy "pure capitalists" pursuing an agenda of political control via economic power. Centralized economic power of that sort was the basis for feudal power structures when wealth was measured in terms of land and its productivity.

The problem with "conspiracy" themes is separating the wheat from the chaffe. The last 25 years constant harping on "Free Trade" looks to me in retrospect like a sustained propaganda campaign designed to reduce the econominc power of governments for the benefit of multinational business and financial institutions.

Whether it is the result of a bona fide "plot" or whether the are a series of power nodes who have a general agreement on "what is best" is hard to say. I would tend to believe the latter rather than the former.

The weakening of labor unions in America is one manifestation of this trend, as is the deliberate dismantling of American industrial infrastructure.

I see more than serendipity in this of move, as the power of any government is tied to its economic and emotional/spiritual base. (The base of how strongly people identify with the symbols and themes the king or government present as guiding principles.)

My sense of this trend risks falling into the Marxian trap of an overemphasis on materialism and economic causation for political events. Whatever the combination of causes, and it is definitely a multi variable problem, the result is plain to see: the continued concentration of economic power in fewer hand, more aggregation under the fig leaf of greater "sovereignty" of smaller groups of people as politically autonomous groups. Example: Sure, Kazakstan is now a republic, but what is the real power driving it? Bosnia is now a country, but where does its economic foundation come from? And so on.

This is not a simple issue, but what is simple to see is the risk to the Jacksonian political theme that has been a consistent undercurrent in US political history. (I got the term from Meade's book Special Providence.) If you want to get a better sense of the uniquely American political legacy that is at risk, read James Webb, Born Fighting.

As to the lying intellectuals who wish to impose Global Federalism? That represents a loss of freedom, not a gain.

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

Or why do you think there had been so much talk about a European foreign minister, or about building up a European military? Only to protect free trade? :lol:
-Kylearan
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Like this?

Source:  London Financial Times  June 6, 2005

France Says Europe Must Increase Military Spending

By Peter Spiegel

Europe is at risk of falling severely behind the US in weapons technologies unless it lifts spending on military equipment and research by as much as Euros 45bn (Pounds 30.4bn) a year, a panel appointed by the French defence minister will warn this week.  According to people who have read the panel's report, which will be presented at a symposium attended by Miche`le Alliot-Marie, the French defence minister, on Wednesday, it includes a call for increased transatlantic partnerships, urging French industry and officials to overcome past difficulties to work more closely with the US.

The report cites the UK as a model for several defence spending initiatives, particularly its recent push to outsource many Ministry of Defence activities - including some front-line missions, such as air-to-air refuelling tankers - to the private sector.  It notes that Britain's BAE Systems remains the only European defence company with a big US presence and provides encouragement to French and European groups to achieve a similar standing. The council consulted widely with UK officials, including Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, incoming chief of the UK defence staff, and Dick Olver, chairman of BAE, according to officials.

While the panel found that Europe's defence industry continues to be competitive in several sectors, including fighter aircraft, military helicopters and defence electronics, it warned that heavy US spending on high-technology networks that can link weapons could leave Europe's capabilities in so-called "systems of systems" far behind.  The report was compiled by the Defence Economy Council, a panel set up by Ms Alliot-Marie shortly after taking over the ministry three years ago to assess the health of France and Europe's defence industries.

It finds France and Britain have accounted for nearly half of all spending on military equipment in Europe over the past three years and more than two-thirds of all European Union defence research budgets.  France and Britain are also two of only four European countries that spend 2 per cent of gross domestic product on defence (the US spends more than 3 per cent).

I wonder at how long it will be before Germany rids itself of the ghosts of a few generations past and moves forward on the defense support. The Germans I served with were well trained, well equipped professionals. I think it is a shame that the shackles of self doubt and anti German propaganda have prevented better valid use of German troops for peace keeping and other out of area operations. (I think there were some German units in Afghanistan as part of the NATO contribution there, don't remember. ) In parallel, I'd suggest the German industrial infrastructure is still in place and underappreciated.

(Tidbit: German bearings for certain helicopter swashplates were better than the American bearings for the same model, but our Congress blocked the contract for them. Old story, and a sad one: the lame bearings ended up getting a friend of mine killed.)

Do you think the French position is intended to cajole the Germans into upping their share of the "collective" European defense investment? How do you read German public opinion on that score?

Occhi