Do you believe "Doc" is real?

[Occhidiangela]

Yes indeedy! I am back, thanks for noticing.  Thought I'd trundle in and take note of those needy, socially-retarded malcontents that can't seem to develop an existence beyond the questionable pursuit of arguing and trading insults over the internet.

*ticks of checkmark*  Ghostiger, still here, still can't spell worth a shyte.

It's like watching a blind rat run into the same wall of a maze, over and over and over and over and over and over...
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Nico, nice to see you, and now I shall nit you. :D "Ticks off checkmark" is what you were looking for, unless your checkmark makes the sound of a grandfather clock. :lol: In which case, carry on.

Also,"s h i t e" rather than "shyte." Or, is that the Canadian spelling? I note dictionary.com has only the entry for "s h i t e" so only half a nit. No OED handy.

Druid Question of the day: Can a werewolf "lick himself," and if he can, why would he leave the house?

Been too long, drop by again soon. :D

Occhi

[Guest]

Lest I seem too negative on you - I am not saying youre crazy or non-functional nor that you are dumb or anything like that.

I am saying that using LSD is a gamble and even when you dont lose the gamble you take losses in exchange for what ever changes you gain.

You like your non-linear perspective and thats cool, but you yourself seem to realize that you lose something also.

[Doc]

Be careful what you recommend regarding mind altering substances.  We aint all wired the same.  I admit to a caffeine addiction, but don't really recommend it.  Guinness, on the other hand . . . well, it will give one gas, so caveat imbiber.

Occhi
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You are correct sir. That's why I said don't do it.

As for today's LSD, it is NOT the same chemical compound that it was. Well, for most of it. People use chemicals with similar results. It lacks... Purity. Just because you can synth a drug that is remarkable similar to the original, it does not have the same results and it is very very dangerous.

I dunno how much you know about LSD and it's effects... It was a drug that cured schizophrenia in some people and caused it in others. The effects, even to this very day, can not be fully explained. That's why LSD research and the ability to produce true LSD got canned. That's why it was so important to, how would I put this, get screened for potential mental disorders before taking serious ammounts of the drug. Bi-polar disorder, schizo-effective disorders, OCD, etc, all of these things can either be made better or made worse by LSD. So there are means to program the brain... Or at least rewire it in a sense to function differently. The problem with LSD was producing reliable results. Project MK Ultra and all the now well known illegal testing done in mental hospitals on patients showed all kinds of results. Raised IQs, dropped IQs, improvements and worsenings in mental disorders. The CIA did the whole Electric Kool Aid tests. They also experimented heavily with LSD for remote viewing and to see if they could awake latent psychic abilities to fight a mind war with the Commies. As for "latent psychic abilities" I need only to remind you of The Pit. If you go into that hole you shall surely die... Wasn't that a fun time :P

Taking LSD is like pulling God's finger. You don't know for sure what's going to happen, but you can bet your sweet ass that whatever does happen is going to be spectacular.

And yes, I have done peyote and shrooms and all those fun and wonderful things. Nothing compares to true LSD.

Infact, I could go out and pick some shrooms right now I bet, if I went looking under some cowflops a few fields over.

Bah. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. I could send my self a postcard, it aint worth the trip.

Typo on shirt as something else entirely, was thinking about cowflops I think.

[Rinnhart]

Im not saying hes fake. I just suspect it.

I hope hes real(even though I utterly disagree with his perspective and many of his values).
But hes too good to be real(good in the sense of value to a forum). The character he describes himself would be a truely unique odd ball and one of the last types to pop on on a gamer forum.
Anyway I mean no offense Doc - if youre real Im glad your here, and if youre fake that doesnt bother me too much either.
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No.

[Doc]

Lest I seem too negative on you - I am not saying youre crazy or non-functional nor that you are dumb or anything like that.

I am saying that using LSD is a gamble and even when you dont lose the gamble you take losses in exchange for what ever changes you gain.

You like your non-linear perspective and thats cool, but you yourself seem to realize that you lose something also.
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You don't seem negative toward me at all. At least not yet. Which is why I have participated thus far.

And you are correct. It is, at best, a trade. One only need to look at Dr. Timothy Leary to know that. He was truly gifted. He had a great mind. He too, banged on his own doors of perception, and accepted the trial by fire that lies within the mind. He came out profoundly changed. There is no doubt that he was... Hrm, what's the right word here... He was gifted, but there was more than that. Anything I say would only cheapen what it really is... You can not doubt his genius but you do feel pity for what he paid to take that trip.

Would I go back to being "normal" if there was some sort of amazing cure? Well... No. No, I don't think I would. The trade was a fair one.

[Nicodemus Phaulkon]

Nico, nice to see you, and now I shall nit you.  :D  "Ticks off checkmark" is what you were looking for, unless your checkmark makes the sound of a grandfather clock.  :lol:  In which case, carry on. 

Also,"s h i t e" rather than "shyte."  Or, is that the Canadian spelling?  I note dictionary.com has only the entry for "s h i t e" so only half a nit.  No OED handy.

Druid Question of the day:  Can a werewolf "lick himself," and if he can, why would he leave the house?

Been too long, drop by again soon.  :D

Occhi
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My bad! Actually, it was meant to be a plural "ticks of checkmarks", one for each category of redundancy. Thanks for the heads-up, however missed.

And the "shyte" spelling is well-founded and darned-near universal in my neck of the woods. Whether it's argued as an Aussie variation or coming from the bastardization of the Queen's English is a moot point by now. I'm pretty sure any Texan wouldn't give a rat's ass in any case.

*insert beautific grin here*

A texan.  The lowest form of white man that there is. - Robert Duvall, Geronimo

[Doc]

SNORK

Only two things come out of Tejas. Steers and Queers.

Sorry Occhi.

[Raelynn]

I know what you mean. I do the same thing, but to a lesser extent at this point, and sort of in a different way. I tend to throw things back there. While my mind does wander a lot causing random threads to start in my mind, it's often something I've been working on (nothing like waking up at 4 in the morning with the reason your code hasn't been working all day). If too much is going on at once in my mind, I'll send the wrong stuff to my mouth, or stuff just won't get sent at all, or I'll confuse myself as to which conversation I've actually had with the person and accidently start talking with them in the middle of the conversation. That's always a fun one. :)

I also agree with you about the communication beyond words. I tend to use gestures almost too much.

[Mithrandir]

Whatever you do, don't go trying to catch up. If you are dumb enough not to listen, don't worry, you will see the bats soon enough.
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Meh, none of the hard stuff. Just enough weed to expand my mind a little bit.

It's probably less a toll on my body than when I was hard drinking with 7 guys 3-4 nights a week.

[Count Duckula]

Nicodemus! Welcome back. I'm here to steal your helm.

[Occhidiangela]

SNORK

Only two things come out of Tejas. Steers and Queers.

Sorry Occhi.
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Ever head of Oil? Texas Tea? And yes, my friend, Texas still holds court with King Cotton. Loads of it down here in the Coastal Bend.

Occhi

[Occhidiangela]

I'm pretty sure any Texan wouldn't give a rat's ass in any case.

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Nico

Robert Duval played Agustus MacRae, Texas Ranger, in Lonesome Dove, so there is a sweet irony in your quote from Geronimo.

"If I say this beach is safe to surf, the beach is safe to surf!"

Occhi

[Doc]

A question.

Some folk made some pretty bold statements about LSD damaging the brain.

In short, that the brain can not be reprogrammed or made to work... "better."

So, with the folks that take this contrary position, I would like to hear your defense on the issue that LSD has raised people's IQs (Considerably I might add in some tests) and then the whole cure some mental illnesses like schizophrenia. If LSD only damages the brain, how does one explain the (I will confess rare) examples where LSD really has rerouted and rewired the brain, making it work better so to speak. If a person suffering from some schizo-type disorder, and using LSD, has it cured, never to bother them again, exactly what is this called? Brain damage? What great loss have they endured to be free of a crippling disabling disease? And for the most part, these were permanent changes. The raising of IQ continued to exist after the drug wore off. So if the brain is being damaged, how does one explain the increased mental function with the actual science involved to back it up? The new receptors being created while on LSD are actually better and function a great deal better than the "normal" receptors that we are born with. (Although not for everybody. Some folks get paradise, others go to hell)

No, affirming Occhi's assertions, I am not a brain surgeon. But I am well studied enough on these issues and have delved into the observations of others. One does not need to be a physicist and understand the complex workings of a microwave to make it heat up some leftovers. The common person can not explain the inner workings, but, they can observe that by pressing the "1" button, the microwave will heat a something for one minute. They might not know how it works, they only know that it works.

After a lot of thought last night, and some time spent milking my goats this morning and discussing it with them, they all agree that most of your opinions on the issue are "baahaahaahaad" and that maybe you should reconsider. I retract my statement that I am somehow "damaged." I no longer agree with that idea. I am different. Evolved maybe. Changed. Altered. Just because I work differently, does not mean I that I work improperly. If everybody else were like me, it would be considered "normal" so it's all a matter of perception really. My own views on my self are tainted because I can recall a day in my past when my brain was "normal" and I draw my conclusions on the experience based on that. Had I not had that "normal" period, my perceptions on how I am now would be entirely different. IE, I would be perfectly normal, and I would be wondering what the hell is wrong with everybody else and why are they brain damaged.

Don't try your logical assertions on me as they do not work. If you wish to defend your position, do so objectly. Think outside of your own head.

I have a meeting coming up in a while, so I will be AFK (In a bit) for a few hours while I grapple with an issue that has irked me for quite some time. I am about to go and deal with it and hopefully get something done about it. And if all else fails, I am probably going to beat the hell out of somebody.

[Guest]

I didnt say it could not improve some aspect of your brain, I said the brain isnt meant to be reprogrammed.

The brain may still work nicely after you "reprogram" it but as I said you ussually lose something in exchange for what you gain when it goes well.
But much worseit frequently doesnt go well(as you yourself said).

As for schizophrenics they are already broken unfortunetly. So potentially a drug similar to LSD might work for them. Their problem is not unlike a bad short circuit. Exactly what LSD is going to change is somewhat random, if they get lucky it bypasses the short circuit.

IQ is not a clear cut indicator like you imply. The brain perform a vast array of functions and most of them are not so easily measured with a test.
Its not uncommon people with high IQs to display "flaws" in other areas of mental development(Im talking on a minor sclae not the rare "idiot savants"). Some times nature makes these trade offs too.

[Doc]

Hmm. Interesting Ghostiger.

I will propose another question.

If the brain is not meant to be programmed, then why does it have the ability to make new kinds of receptors with the right chemical compounds? If it is not meant to be rewired, then why does it have the ability to rewire it self? It obviously has these abilities for a reason.

I am just saying, I think your assertion is hogwash.

In the future, when we understand more, and something like LSD is revived... With a more acceptable failure rate, what if people started boosting their own brains to help deal with complex machinery and computer systems bound to come in the future? Or a mix of chemicals like LSD as well as implants to boost mental horsepower? And what of mental illness, what if some day somebody refines the LSD type process so it's not so hit or miss? What then?

The brain is not meant to be reprogrammed, but it obviously can be. Because it was meant to be.

I might be talking out of my ass here, but I have long considered the idea that nano technology and chemicals like LSD could go well together. If you have nanobots injected into the brain to monitor receptor growth, good positive growth could be cultivated, while damaging or unwanted growth could be, erm, pruned. The problem is of course is figuring out which kind of growth is which. It wouldn't be an instantaneous process, but repeated dosings and periods of repair would have to be done. Brief storms of potential insanity followed by moments of ultimate clarity, soon smoothed out to a fine tuned machine. You would of course need extremely strong minded subjects. Strong of will and mental fortitude.

I am all for the refinement of the human brain. Mental illnesses can, and should be cured. The victims of said illnesses are treated inhumanely, and most of the drugs taken these days have cruel and punishing side effects.

I don't think it should be forced on anybody, but people willing to undergo refinement should have the option. I think for things like space travel and such, where weight is an issue and supply space is limited, having a capable able bodied human being that also doubles as device for computation, navigation, and systems management would be a boon. I personally don't think computers can replace us entirely. We can do things that they can't.

And before anybody asks... If they ever started a program like the one I mentioned, I would be the first in line to offer up my own brain for subject study.

[Guest]

To adapt to changes.

But I dont think you have a good grasp of neurobilology.

Simply creating adding new receptors on a neuron is not a big deal. Its not "reprogramming" is simply living and happens all the time on all neurons. The receptors on neurons are destroyed and replaced all the time with different receptors being added based on a myraid of factors.
Rewiring is definetly NOT the word for it.

LSD supposedly alters existing neural pathways(I know quite a bit about the brain but I cant find any clear and reliable desciptions of what LSD actually does at a cellular level.) Thats not really the same.




On a seperate not you are using the word "meant" in a way I did not(I defined my meaning). Doing a semantics trick like that just makes it hard to converse clearly.

I do agree with you that with more research it might well be possible to use LSD or a similar drug to alter a brain in specific desired direction.
But currently its like rolling dice on a the edge of a bridge.

[pazuzu]

<...>If a person suffering from some schizo-type disorder, and using LSD, has it cured, never to bother them again, exactly what is this called? Brain damage? What great loss have they endured to be free of a crippling disabling disease?
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There still remains a lot of questions, so you're sort of stretching it here. Even a gunshot wound may be good for you, given the right circumstances, damaging faulty nerves that later heal up to be completely good again. I'd still argue that a gunshot wound is primarily damaging and unhealthy.
It may not be a fair comparison, and LSD may have truly benefitial consequences, but I would argue that you can't know that. Healing damaged nerves isn't an aspect of a gunshot wound that one can espect to happen, the same goes for curing mental illness with LSD. Also, the possibility of LSD curing mental illness is in no way an argument for using the drug for other purposes.
From a general perspective based on common sence, as you apply at the end, one could say that if the brain isn't allready damaged you shouldn't try and fix it.

More on the losses at the end of my already way too long post.

And for the most part, these were permanent changes. The raising of IQ continued to exist after the drug wore off. So if the brain is being damaged, how does one explain the increased mental function with the actual science involved to back it up?
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I may be starting a huge off topic discussion here, but I strongly believe that IQ-tests mostly describe current level of education. Learning abilities, creativity, social aptitude (did I use that word correct?) and empathy is left out. With a heavy reliance on mathematical thinking and recognition IQ-tests would not necessarily prove increased mental function. The use of LSD may for some reason help someone giving them a more efficient memory or something similar that would benefit them in IQ-tests, but saying this is an application of LSD is stretching it by far.
<simplistic and bad phrasing>
To keep it simple, lets say that giving the brain a neurotic shock sometimes increases the efficiency of your memory, and that LSD occationally may give you the right kind of a neurotic shock to do this. If so, it's the shock, not LSD that is the desired tool. One could probably find better and safer ways to do this, without the enourmous risks.
</simplistic and bad phrasing>

The new receptors being created while on LSD are actually better and function a great deal better than the "normal" receptors that we are born with. (Although not for everybody. Some folks get paradise, others go to hell)
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I'd sort of like to see links to sources on this one, if you've got them.
However, if I interpret you correctly here, some people get good receptors and some people get bad receptors. In other word the average receptors created with the use of LSD are completely normal?

This, together with the possible losses are the strong points against the use of LSD, more about this at the end.

<...> One does not need to be a physicist and understand the complex workings of a microwave to make it heat up some leftovers. The common person can not explain the inner workings, but, they can observe that by pressing the "1" button, the microwave will heat a something for one minute. They might not know how it works, they only know that it works.
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This is true in the case of a microwave, of course. However, it is dangerous to assume it is true for all things complex.
Cramming a long series of causes and effects into one big cause and effect is faulty logic at best.

After a lot of thought last night, and some time spent milking my goats this morning and discussing it with them, they all agree that most of your opinions on the issue are "baahaahaahaad" and that maybe you should reconsider.
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:lol:
Some people say it's the logical arguments and strong opinions you give us they wish they were able to convey themselvses; I'd settle for your ingenious tone and ability to crack people up while making them think.

I retract my statement that I am somehow "damaged." I no longer agree with that idea. I am different. Evolved maybe. Changed. Altered. Just because I work differently, does not mean I that I work improperly. If everybody else were like me, it would be considered "normal" so it's all a matter of perception really. My own views on my self are tainted because I can recall a day in my past when my brain was "normal" and I draw my conclusions on the experience based on that. Had I not had that "normal" period, my perceptions on how I am now would be entirely different. IE, I would be perfectly normal, and I would be wondering what the hell is wrong with everybody else and why are they brain damaged. <...>
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Ah, but these are pretty good arguments for not altering your mind.
It is true that you would be considered normal were everybody like you, however it is also true that were everybody damaged the same way they wouldn't be considered damaged (mind you, I'm not saying you're damaged in any way).
Again, being different doesn't necessarily mean you're working improperly, but by convention you can't be the judge of that.
Previous experiences are part of what makes us able to determine what our current status is like.
Having had eyesight but then lost it makes you able to understand what's missing. Being born blind means you can't fully understand what's missing, and moreso you have to rely on others to convince you that something indeed is missing.

On losses and benefits.
So far, I'm having a hard time seeing the benefits (other than possible but not probable occurrenses) and how they justify the use of LSD. It seems to me that the possible benefits are best induced via other means, preferably safer ones. The benefits does not come from LSD directly, but reactions to LSD that are hard to control, and may or may not damage/benefit you. This is not something that makes LSD a tool, it just makes it dangerous.
The same goes for losses really, the danger seems to lie in that you don't know what you'll get. It would also seem that most benefits come with a loss on it's own, based on what you've written and my own knowledge on the subject (which, admittedly, isn't as great as I'd like it to be).
I'm not really comfortable using you as an example, so again I'll keep it simplistic: Uncontrolled changes in your mind may have benefits, but it's highly probable that you'll have bad results that may even be difficult to determine.
Not knowing what you'll get often makes it hard to find out exactly what you got.

[Doc]

I knew it was a gamble. I knew it was a crapshoot. I knew the odds were not friendly.

I also knew how to hedge my bets a bit. Before doing the serious doses, I studied a great deal about meditation, biofeedback, and ultimate control of the body through will power. You know, things like lowering your heart rate and pulse. How to achieve altered states entirely on your own accord. Self hypnosis, and focused meditative states that allow you to say, completely ignore the fact that you are being sliced open, or hung from meat hooks in various acts like suspension. If you don't know what that is, I can't help you. Start the journey on your own.

In those meditative states I learned what doors are. Parts of the mind that you can visualize. Sections of your brain. Dormant places. Places closed and sealed off for whatever reason. I am not really sure how to describe it as words fail here. This goes beyond words and explaination, it is something one must experience. There are books, and some garbled accounts of others who have been there, like Dr Leary. Imagine going into a state of self induced hypnosis, and sleeping into a deep meditative trance. Now, imagine, while you are in that trance, visualising that your brain is like a house with many doors. You can walk into a room and examine it's contents. These rooms go on forever. It's like a whole universe in there. There are hundreds of doors. You can, with effort, much like lucid dreaming, make doors materialise. Like for example, the door to get "out." Some rooms are unpleasant... Bad thoughts. In a physical form. Made real by your perception. Now, some doors are locked. Try as you might... They just wont open. Even the most powerful lucid state of meditation will not make those doors open. LSD acts like... Hrm, it acts like a key or a battering ram, depending on the experience. Now, some of those doors are locked. And for damn good reason. What lies on the other side on some occasions... Will devour you. Eat you alive. There are aliens in that inner space, that collapsable universe inside your ears. I don't mean aliens like from another planet, but alien as it's something you have never met before. It's not from around here, and it's not happy to see you. Some doors you open, and what is inside is not created by your visualization. It's just there. Waiting for you. Who knows what's in these rooms for different people. In one of mine, the room stretched practically forever off into the horizon and it was filled with books. I damn near got lost in there because I honestly didn't want to come out. It was the most vile sort of bait. But I did hang out and look at some of those books. All of them were written in gibberish I could not understand, with pictures of things I had never seen. Strange machines. Impossible objects. Strange stuff. Like 4th dimensional objects immersed into a 2nd dimensional space. With each book I opened and thumbed through, my mind felt changed. I wanted to open more books. I wanted to open all books, and I had a hard time convincing my self that it was a bad idea. Certainly a few more wouldn't hurt, and a few more after that. And what would just one or two more be after that? I somehow had the pressence of mind to realise what was happening, and I had to stop and refocus and make my escape, which was very very difficult to do because by then, I was terribly submerged. I had to back track through a couple of rooms before I could start regaining my physical senses.

And I went back a few more times looking for the Great Library. Never found it. Found other places though.

Oh my... Did I just let you all in to my dementia?

There were books written about these doors. Infact, the band the Doors were named afted one of these books.

The sane going into these experiences must prepare themselves, and construct their own form of, well, I hate to say it, delusion or state of insanity. Those who suffer from schyzo-type disorders already exist in these states. Which is why LSD has such a profound effect on them.

[Occhidiangela]

Brief storms of potential insanity followed by moments of ultimate clarity, soon smoothed out to a fine tuned machine. You would of course need extremely strong minded subjects. Strong of will and mental fortitude.
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Doc, if I may cut to the chase on your latest stream of cosncious offerings:

"Kids, don't try this at home, this was experienced by a trained professional."

Or something like that.

Occhi

[Doc]

Ah. It's 3:55 in the morning and I got about an hour and a half of sleep after being awake for about 30 hours. Another 32 hour cycle begins. And why am I here? Hell if I know. Felt like the place to be.

I wondered, before I dozed off, with all the folk saying that they wanted to be a bit more like me in the ability to say what I say and how I present my self. This caused me to ask a question.

How many of you would take both the bad and the good?

Be your self and your own man. Each to their own accord.

As for my logic, while I appear to be logical, I am not. I have probed the outer edges of logic, and found the whole idea, the whole concept, lacking. In the end, I have found that logic is merely another shackle. A self imposed limit. I clung to it for a time, much like a lonely man clings to his mistress for satisfaction and comfort. And when things got weird, logic packed it's bags and left. I have found it is not a constant.

I got into it with Pete once... About logic and compared it to being like sticky... He of course rejected my argument, being to firmly encased in logic himself. I am not sure actually what he did or did not get out of the argument. But something about me bothers him a great deal I think. I am not sure. He and I are absolutes at the different ends of a spectrum. We are more a force unto our selves. Titans if you will. We often rub each other the wrong way. He is a threat to my kind of thought, and I am a threat to his school of thinking. I think. It's hard to tell because Pete is rather alien to me, but I do find my self agreeing with him on occasion.

How does one define sticky?

What sticks to one's teeth but not to one's tongue, is that sticky? What about to the roof of the mouth but nothing else? What about stuff that makes you smack your lips? Brown suger is sticky, but moleasses is stickier. For the tactile sense, what is sticky to the touch?

Logic is sticky. For some people, logic sticks to their teeth, but not their tongues. It clings to the roof of their mouths and chokes out what they wish to say, or impedes how they say it. We all perceive it in some way, different from our peers. Some of us impose the burdon on ourselves to a great degree, going to a school of higher learning, refining it, and then carefully building a wall around our selves of inpenatrable logic. And folk that do this do just fine until things get weird and that wall of logic is destroyed. Some of them will never fully recover.

I reject logic simply because it has failed me. I choose to deal instead in my own absolutes.

I absolutely must have a sammich.